What do you do when all of your insecurities are confirmed by your wife?
What do you do when all of your insecurities are confirmed by your wife?
CW: depressive relationship stuff, sex, generally being a SadSack.
First off, both myself (37M) and my wife (36F) are in individual therapy and we've been married for about a decade now. She went through life with untreated anxiety, depression, and emotional dysregulation (turns out, likely on the spectrum) as well as complicated grief and I am working through a life of untreated ADHD, childhood trauma (great mix!), and sexual dysfunction. These are important to the situation but also putting it out that we're already getting help.
So early in our marriage, I woke up about 3am on a work night to loud voices, as she and our roommate were up drinking in the living room, which our room was next to. I was incredibly annoyed but then, clear as day, hear her say "MrSadSack has a small dick." Up until this point, I'd never felt insecure about my size as I'm about average and rarely had a problem getting sexual partners off (more to it than PIV - toys, oral, etc). When I brought it up, she assured me that it was more that she was used to longer but less girth and that she enjoyed my girth much better. Any time that it has come up she's assured me that she basically didn't know what she was saying at the time and is very happy with my size.
Fast forward to any 4 years into the marriage and my wife loses her mother. She is hit by the deepest grief that I've ever seen. Her libido goes away and I get to be on the receiving end of her anger phase of grief (with extra from from ADHD/RSD and early childhood trauma making my particularly sensitive to anger). Before anyone takes me the wrong way, yes, of course someone who is dealing with the fresh loss of a parent isn't going to be interest in sex. I mention it because it's what she attributes as the point where her libido changed.
And after six years, it hasn't come back. It's marginally better as she's no longer on hormonal birth control and gets some drive when ovulating but outside of that, it's generally a dead bedroom. It's also a bit better because early on she was misdiagnosed and put on meds that seriously messed her up, leading to any sexual advances or interest being angrily rejected. So, as asked, I gave her space but the years of rejection really undermined my sexual confidence.
During the course of this I also developed ED due to a mix of hormonal imbalance, medication (hooray for antidepressants and ADHD med side effects), and stress as the sole provider due to my wife's legitimately debilitating anxiety and packing. I was put on TRT with supplemental tadalafil to try to overcome the hormonal imbalance and compensate for the medications' side effects. It isn't always effective, however, I generally give her multiple orgasms when we sleep together.
We've discussed non-monogamy in the past as I've been generally comfortable with the idea and am ambiamourous. Generally, it's been limited to allowing her to explore her bisexuality with other women, with her insisting that she has no interesting in being with any other guy. However, she's also offered it for me to sleep with other women because my already fairly high libido has only been increased by the TRT, leaving me sexually frustrated nearly 24/7.
Recently, she brought up the idea of opening the relationship again. I responded that, yes, I really think that she should see about exploring that side of her sexuality and that I was ok if she wanted to see women without me but would also be down if they wanted me to join (but not required). So...I rather misread that. She was interested in hooking up with a guy. I hesitated but accepted, not sure why I was feeling off about it but stated that I wanted us to learn more about it before really getting into it as she hasn't had any experience with consensual non-monogamy and we've been monogamous since the beginning.
We installed Bumble and she helped me create a profile. She immediately got a match and started chatting. As a guy, who is honest about being married and looking for casual non-monogamy, of course, I got nada, with the app not helping by giving 9/10 potential matches clearly stating that they only wanted long-term, monogamous relationships (I fucking hate those apps). The kick in the gut came when she started making plans to hookup with the match on the weekend. I have trouble with my emotions, and am about the least jealous person that I've ever met, so, it took me a bit to realize that I was feeling terrible and figure out a bit of why. We talked and she called it off, and we both uninstalled that shitty app.
Fast forward to this week and I finally managed to process why, as someone who is very much open to non-monogamy, why it was bothering me. Probably, a bit obvious to someone with a less fucked up brain or more experience with non-monogamy. From my perspective, I've been supporting her financially, emotionally, and getting her mental healthcare that she didn't have access to when she really needed it. I stood by patiently, giving her space to work through her extremely prolonged grief, while sexually frustrated out of my mind and having little but rejection for years. It wouldn't be us high-fiving and being happy for each other's sexual experiences, it would be me, sitting home alone, possibly working, still sexually frustrated, and while the woman that I love and lust after goes out and sleeps with a stranger. I tried to communicate this to her as I wanted her to understand what's going on in my head. I failed epically but eventually got some of it across. But during the course of the last 24 hours, she's finally been honest in that the ED is a problem, she has been thinking about fucking other guys, and she was just trying to spare my feelings over the years and did, in fact, mean it at the time when she told my roommate/best friend at the time that she thought I had a small dick.
So, here I am, probably about as emasculated as a guy can be without cheating or physical emasculation, with insecurities and anxiety that I didn't even know I had paid bare and stamped "confirmed". Sexual self-confidence completely shattered but still sexually frustrated. How do I recover from that? How do we as a couple?
Radical acceptance maybe. But I don't think that I'm comfortable anymore with pursuing non-monogamy. Who is going to be interested in pursuing a casual relationship with a married man who's wife doesn't want to sleep with him but wants to sleep with guys who are more well-endowed and functional? I don't even have confidence going for me anymore. Nor do I have a cuckold fetish.
She's trying. Putting up affirmations for me and asked me for a date to a film that I've been really looking forward to, which I fucked up by asking her, with my newfound insecurity, if she had cheated on me during our relationship and she's not talking to me at the moment. I'm just feeling defeated by life, genetics, and whatever the fuck else there is to be defeated by. I'm glad that I'm already in antidepressants because I'd be in a much darker hole.
UPDATE: Thanks folks for the encouraging words and frankness. I'm still pretty damn low and there's been ups and downs over the weekend (pretty awful this morning) but, at least I've got a bit of candlelight in these depths and can maybe feel a bit of a breeze coming from the top, even if I can't see it yet.
A couple of clarifications: A lot of human relationship issues rhyme, but they're not all the same. In my getting my hurt off my chest, I've definitely left out a good deal of context.
A good deal of the while situation has been caused by previously untreated mental health issues, for both of us. The biggest one at the moment being her complicated grief. Something that I also experienced in my teenage years that messed me up for a long time.
For those unfamiliar, think of the process of grief line a train (not a perfect metaphor because grief is often non-linear but it works here). It has these stops on the way to rejoining the mainline and integrating into normal life (sadness still comes from time to time but, new joys and fond memories do too). In complicated grief, the train derails, stranding the person in the acute phase of their loss. So, for six years, she was stuck between roughly the 1 week and 3 month point of someone experiencing the loss of a parent. More fucked up is that one of the likely contributing factors is her siblings denying her her right to participate in the funeral by knowingly scheduling it, on another continent, less than 48 hours after death.
So, while she's progressed in therapy a lot, she's still not integrated with the grief, which, in addition to anti-depressants, has led to extremely low libido and inconsideration. No, not an excuse for the behavior but context to understand why she acted shitty.
We talked a lot and she has apologized and continues to be regretful and try to help me out of this hole. In regards to her feelings on my size, I pushed the matter for her to be honest about it, even though it happened about 9 years ago, because I had trouble believing her and it would occasionally surface. She has said "I was a stupid little girl who didn't know what she was doing or saying or what she had. I've never had girth like yours and it's the best that I've ever had."
When it came to the size and ED impacting satisfaction and her thinking about sleeping with other people, she told me that she wasn't fully honest with me from the start because she was afraid that I would be devastated. She tried instead (successfully) to get me to see a doctor about the ED, leading to the discovery that I have a hereditary hormonal imbalance and that my psychological meds (anti-depressants and stimulant ADHD meds) are also contributing. We've both put on some weight over the years, which probably impacts how well we can do the do in some positions like spooning which she used to love.
Of her thinking of sleeping with other people, she said "I only want to be with you but, sometimes I really just want to be taken. I was horny and frustrated and didn't realize how it would hurt you to suggest it because you've always been open to open/poly stuff." Here's where the grief and my ADHD/RSD came in. I haven't even tried initiating for a long time because 10/10 times resulted in rejection. I used to be a 3-5 times per week guy BEFORE the TRT raised my libido to about that if a confused 15 year old. I've not been discussing it because it makes her feel terrible and under pressure to perform for me sexually. So, she wasn't cognizant of the level of sexual rejection and frustration that is my being. Having participated in open/casual relationships back in Uni, I also wasn't aware just how unbalanced things get by adding "married" to the male status.
I don't know where the I'm going with this update because I'm still pretty messed up but, I will say to those that suggest divorce, etc, that I feel that this would be akin to divorcing someone due to the impact of cancer or other chronic disease. Yes, I'm hurting but I'm not prepared to do that this woman that I love dearly. It may be that we do need to explore other forms for our relationship when we've healed but, we're in this for the long haul.
UPDATE 2:
Just a further clarification. The moment that I expressed that I was not ok, the attempt at opening and seeing someone else was stopped immediately. She didn't understand (nor did I) how hurtful it was.
If you don't have kids, get out. If your wife isn't sleeping with you, isn't supportive of you, then what the fuck is she other than a roommate at this point? Don't sunk-cost fallacy this thing - You had 10 years to learn what not to do. You don't want her to sleep with other men, and she clearly wants to. It's destroying you, and she sounds like she's already done with the relationship.
You're supposed to be there for each other. That's clearly not happening. You're being taken advantage of, and she's gonna end up getting pregnant with some other dude's kid, and rely on you for the paycheck. I've seen it a million times.
You said you've been together for a decade, and it's been sexless for 6 years. The relationship has been over for that long. You had a 4 year long marriage, we all make mistakes, but if you keep putting your energy into this you WILL likely end up in psych.
My business partner was in a similar situation, luckily he hadn't gotten married yet. He's been much happier after ending that relationship, and managed to find a woman that seems to care a lot about him and his needs, just as much as he cares about hers.
My life partner and I used to be very sexual and shared everything. After she became asexual we adjusted our relationship to be life partners and effectively roommates splitting bills 50/50 and just being quite comfortable being just partners but non sexual. But it took a while and was difficult for a bit.
Of course these conversations progressions from a relationship can happen, but in this case, with all the mental stress and issues both sides are dealing with and how toxic the relationship has become, it would be very hard to achieve and questionable if it's worth the effort. Ultimately, only OP can evaluate what matters to him, but separating completely is not something I've should be afraid of evaluating as an option at all.
Permanently Deleted
Huge red flag bro. That’s not a fuck up on your part, that is a reasonable question to ask at this point in your relationship after everything that has transpired.
In this case, it's not as red flag as it would seem. She has huge guilt baggage from having cheated on her high school boyfriend who was an alcoholic who neglected her physically and emotionally. On my end, it was the insecurity that I was feeling picking the worst case scenario that I could think of and using it for emotional self-harm, without caring about how deeply the implied accusation would hurt her.
Hugs brother. I hope you find happiness soon, life is too short to spend it with someone not emotionally invested in the relationship.
Thank you very much! And really, that's one of the worst parts of the situation. She IS emotionally invested and is overcome by shame and guilt over what's happened. Knowing that it's happening but because she is choosing it or because she genuinely isn't interested in me kinda fucks me up more. At least if it were willful, I'd have someone concrete to blame.
Get out.
The relationship has reached it's end. It was at the end years ago, but you haven't accepted it.
Leave.
If she's not willing to sleep with you, but wants to explore her sexuality with other people, then what, exactly, are you supposed to be? A roommate?
Get an attorney.
A roommate that pays for healthcare and everything else
Man, this is a lot more than I'd trust some strangers on the internet to help with. Counseling (as a couple but especially for you) is the only advice I feel comfortable offering, as in, "my advice for you is to seek more qualified advice."
(EDIT: I just reread your post and saw that you're both in individual therapy. That's good that you're already there and I think your doctor would be a great person to read this post to, exactly as it's written.)
Just some of my thoughts:
You clearly feel opposed to opening the relationship. For the time being, until these problems are well addressed, I wouldn't consider that an option at all. It takes a lot of security and trust in each other to make a nonmanogamous relationship work which neither of you seem like you have.
Your wife frankly sounds like a bitch. I'm sorry if you're offended at being told that and I understand I'm kind of filling a stereotype of online relationship advice commenters, but I'd really be considering if your relationship with her is something you think both of you can/want to put effort into building or if you two have just grown too incompatible. At this point, I'd be taking a hard stock of your life and where you want it to end up.
Man, this is a lot more than I'd trust some strangers on the internet to help with. Counseling (as a couple but especially for you) is the only advice I feel comfortable offering, as in, "my advice for you is to seek more qualified advice."
I'd absolutely agree in most cases. I'm still a bit reeling and fucked up at the moment and needed to get it out before my next appointment and to get myself to even being ok sending messages about it to my therapist. I'm definitely intending to get into couples' therapy again - last one wasn't a good fit.
You clearly feel opposed to opening the relationship. For the time being, until these problems are well addressed, I wouldn't consider that an option at all. It takes a lot of security and trust in each other to make a nonmanogamous relationship work which neither of you seem like you have.
Yeah. It feels a bit fucked up to me that I'd still be a bit ok with her being with another woman but, I don't have any insecurity about having a vagina and I would genuinely be happy about her getting to explore that side of her identity. I certainly felt a lot more secure previously but without a healthy sex life in our relationship, yeah, there's no way NOT to feel insecure when feeling frustrated like that. Add to that the introduction of insecurity about a part of me that I have no ability to change (without surgery that risks even more loss of functionality). If we had a healthy sex life, hey, I know I'm not swinging 8" and would be happy for her but right now, it's not gonna happen.
Your wife frankly sounds like a bitch. I'm sorry if you're offended at being told that
No. I'm not going to call you wrong or be offended. She absolutely has been in the past and regrets it deeply. There was a lot of good that came out of our previous attempt at couples therapy and she's made concrete changes, in addition to apologies.
and I understand I'm kind of filling a stereotype of online relationship advice commenters, but I'd really be considering if your relationship with her is something you think both of you can/want to put effort into building or if you two have just grown too incompatible.
While this is sound advice, I think that, in ways, we're in a bit of the opposite situation. Our increasing comfort with one another and our respective therapy allows us to better express ourselves than before, which also amplifies our ability to hurt one another, which is further augmented by my recently-discovered RSD. I'm not the most compatible with most people that I've had long-term relationships with due to my ADHD and all of the fun symptoms that I'm still working through.
At this point, I'd be taking a hard stock of your life and where you want it to end up.
Well, I certainly didn't sign up for this. I still want to have kids and it's looking less likely every year. But, even as low as I am now, I'm madly in love with her and she with me. Our fucked up brains are just great at causing unintentional harm from time to time. Most of the time, it's good.
Don't let your RSD get to you in this post. Convince yourself I wrote this for another person.
Bro, you are in a bad way, and I'm going to talk to you like no therapist ever would, because they have certain obligations and will dance around things until you finally get it on your own while they waste years of your life waiting for you to do so. I have ADHD and was in a relationship with a person with undiagnosed (at the time) BPD, which was no picnic, and some of your writings give me flashbacks.
I will be blunt with you, because I wish someone had been blunt with me and gave me direct advice. Get out, the relationship is not worth it, and the really unfortunate thing is that you can only really comprehend this properly once you are out.
If I could give you a gift, it would be to advance your life 15 years into the future when you are well out of this relationship -- the moment you finally snapped you were so fed up and realized there was more to life is all but a distant memory -- so that you finally have some perspective and relief. Your future self is glad that's all in the past, and that you are finally safe and free of the toxicity you were living in.
Most of the time, it's good.
I wish you knew how truly miserable this phrase is. You think you know, but you don't, I can tell from how you defend things. I used to tell myself that same thing.
Our fucked up brains are just great at causing unintentional harm from time to time.
Stop trying to justify it. That's what I did. I can tell you this is a bad defense. Things are much better with a partner without a fucked up brain, or at least a lesser one. I'd bet money that you'd find your brain less fucked up without hers around. Just because you are both fucked up doesn't mean you can help each other, it makes it worse. Just because you are both fucked up, doesn't mean you deserve each other or are right for each other even with therapy.
Our increasing [ability] to better express ourselves [...] amplifies our ability to hurt one another
Isn't that telling you something?
I'm madly in love with her and she with me
Yes, and? So what? This can be true even while she is still hurting you and you are miserable. People think this is mutually exclusive, but it isn't. "I'm madly in love with her and she with me" what does this even matter if you are miserable?
She [...] regrets [things] deeply. There was a lot of good that came out of our previous attempt at couples therapy and she's made concrete changes, in addition to apologies.
That's nice and all, but what good is this if you are still getting hurt and are miserable?
You have been patient, more than patient. You think there is an end in sight to your misery while remaining in this relationship, but it's an illusion.
In my opinion, you've been strung along enough. You've given it way more than enough time for you to be happy, it's time to try something new, something different, free of the encumbrances of this relationship. It's probably scary to you. I know it was for me. But damn if it isn't eye opening to be in a relationship where you aren't being made miserable, your partner genuinely cares about you, and the physicality is a match. It's exciting, refreshing, freeing. You can start fresh and put all that you've learned to use with someone who genuinely makes you happy, and you do the same for them. Things can get better.
Crackpot idea - if you're both already paying for therapy individually and had limited success with couples therapy (assuming the couples therapist was not one of your therapists), maybe your therapists be open to having a session with the four of you?
You already have rapport with them and they know your individual histories so could save a lot of time setting the stage that way. Would be interesting seeing what the therapists would say to each other. Or if meeting isn't possible, maybe could ask your therapists if they'd contact each other to help gain insight?
Sorry you're going through this. She sounds like she's being callous.
If you do decide there's a shred of hope and desire to saving this relationship and all you can change is yourself, then I can offer what has helped my partner and I. Building a habit of affection without the expectation of sex. As in, not lingering too long waiting for the other to "signal the go ahead" for sex. Just a quick but meaningful hug or kiss when nearby, then going back to minding our own business. Also keeping on top of the chores and decisions. Partial contributor to our dead bedroom was because there is nothing more unsexy than thinking of all the things that still need doing. If there's been a dynamic that she feels like she's had to run the household (making sure chores are done, meal planning, groceries are bought and put away, social things organized, birthdays are remembered, etc) then she might feel like your mother. And obviously women are biologically wired not to be attracted to their children.
Have you considered that maybe the marriage has run its course, and the relationship is doing neither of you any favors at this point?
Run far, run fast.
My own biases might be showing, but to me, from what you have said here, she has basically just used you for years, doesn't support you, doesn't want you, and now that you've helped fix her, she's ready to fuck some other dude?
I genuinely don't know what I would do in your situation, I have an idea and it isn't from a good headspace.
So run far, run fast.
Cut tumors out before they grow larger.
My dude, I have autism. My wife has autism, ADHD, accompanied with early childhood trauma, and is bi. It does not give anyone a pass to be an abusive spouse, or allow them to coerce anyone into agreeing to an open relationship.
Either you find a way to separate sex from your version of intimacy and romance (difficult) or you accept that you're both looking for different things and call it off. You both deserve happiness and sound like you've both been dealing with suffering through incompatibilities for little reason.
I personally believe non-monogamy only really works when the couple is happy with their own intimacy and has a healthy emotional connection and sex life. And when the preserving of this core closeness has precedent and priority over everything outside.
If there are severe trouble in those aspects, opening up can not repair or help your relationship. It's rather a step out of the relationship.
Maybe a therapist in joint sessions can help you here, but I feel like this would be a big feat. You'd probably both be happier moving on, even when you can't really see that from the inside now.
Please get out of this situation. You will easily find a much better partner once you get over this relationship. There are a lot of amazing women out there who would treat you with respect. Stop supporting someone who doesn't love you and find someone who actually wants to share a life. Don't tell people you supported her for so long either, at least not right away, you might come off as someone a predator can easily take advantage of. I hope I'm not offending you, but you posting this is a cry for help because you know how fucked up it is but are way too close and probably in a little bit of denial. It really fucking sucks but the only way to be happy is to end this relationship.
I hope I'm not offending you, but you posting this is a cry for help because you know how fucked up it is but are way too close and probably in a little bit of denial. It really fucking sucks but the only way to be happy is to end this relationship.
You are absolutely not offending me. Yes, I'd say that this has been more a cry into the void than a cry for help. There probably is some degree of denial in there, yes. But there's also the fact that while the situation rhymes with others that are extremely predatory, golddigger things, it is not one. I am very deeply loved. I've been hurt, deeply, but most of the situation is not one where there is someone to blame. Which, makes it worse in some ways because there isn't a concrete "enemy" that can be used to make things feel better, just abstract feelings and mental illness.
Good on ya mate. Everything will work out eventually, whether it's with her someone else. Good luck
I'll resist the temptation to voice my opinion about your relationship as I don't know either of you and don't have enough information.
I do however live in a open relationship myself but our situation is a bit different. It's me who has practically zero interest in sex so my gf is allowed to see other guys and she does. I used to be extremely jealous person before but I somehow grew out of it. The first few times she went out with one felt kind of weird but as time passed I got over it and no longed does it make me feel jealous. What I've noticed is that as long as I trust her there's no problem. It's when ever she acts in a way that I find suspicious that all my insecurities creep up. Having been cheated on before likely has something to do with this. If you've been suspecting that she has done stuff behind your back, even if she hasn't, then that is not the time to go forward with this. Trust is the number one, two and third most important thing in a open relationship.
Thank you for this. In my case, as the high-libido side and male, it was less jealousy and more RSD-augmented feelings of rejection. I've never been a particularly jealous person and have historically been very secure in myself. If, for example, we had a healthy sex life where I was feeling confident, it would be no big deal but, instead of joy at the prospect, I was overcome with rejection, and hurt, and feeling undesired and undesirable.
Hey, I don't have actionable advice or solutions, but your story reminded me of a book I've read a few years back.
The book is about how we keep domesticating our home life, working towards stability, then wonder where the mystery and excitement's gone.
It won't fix your problems, but it might be an interesting read, if nothing else.
I'm always up for a good read. Let me know if you happen to remember the title.
Right, sorry.
I forgot to mention the actual book... it's called "Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel.
Do ED pills work for you?
Somewhat. They've had to contend when both the undermined confidence and my other meds, which is a challenge. Right now? There's no way in Hel, Hades, or your favored choice of underworld that anything's happening down there. The pills will only work if you're capable of arousal, which I'm not particularly at this anhedonic juncture.
Sounds to me like your wife is already interested in the hot-wife-cuck fetish.
Possibly terrible advice but I'll give to anyway:
Secretly do some homework on hotwife/cuck fetish, you can tell her later if it was a surprise success or totally !not!
The best way to be introduced to a new fetish is as masterbating material (you have full control in stopping it, with no power dynamics or future repercussions)
Here a great ntr game you can try:
https://hangovercatpurrroduction.itch.io/ntrd-by-clumsiness
And a great dougin
And a BBC comic if your not much for anime
https://comics.8muses.com/comics/album/Blacknwhitecomics_com-Comix/BlacknWhiteComics/Slutty-Moms
Guy
I really do appreciate the out-of-the box thinking but, the hot wife/cuckold fetish isn't for me. Power play and humiliation don't do it for me, evoking emotional pain, instead of eroticism. For me, it would be more likely to cause needing to check myself into an inpatient psych faculty (I did a good bit of catastrophizing the other night). For any potential non-monogamy, I would need security, egality, and the ability to give each other a high five for our experiences.
Seriously, good suggestion though, if I were into such a thing/psychologically compatible with it. Maybe someone will have their interest piqued and land blissfully in a new-to-them fetish.