You know, when you accuse every anti-war candidate of being a Russian agent, you’re just making Russia look better than the US.
Why do the Democrats love war so much? Why can’t Democrats be anti-war?
Edit: Reminder that Russia supports Palestinian statehood and has called for the partition of Jerusalem along pre-1967 borders. Has a Democrat ever said that?
Lets see what George Orwell wrote about that. Try to read all of it, especially the last paragraph. It isnt about being against pacifism, it's about how pacifism can be used by authoritarian regimes on liberal countries and how that societal asymmetry defines the end result.
Pacifism. Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’.
The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security.
Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with.
In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.
Not all wars are good. I was against the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions. But this war is one of the few occasions where american interests mostly align with the moral thing, helping an invaded country defend against an imperial invader. This is one of the least controversial and relatively clean cut wars in history.
Tulsi Gabbard isn't anti-war. She explicitly called herself a hawk on the War on Terror. She's a right-wing opportunist, and like other right wing opportunists (Tucker Carlson, for instance) she might occasionally have a broken clock moment where she criticizes a war, but it's only because she wants to pivot to starting other wars elsewhere.
Tulsi is also a Zionist. She voted for a ban on BDS and called the protests antisemitic. In fact, she said that they were "puppets" of a "radical islamist organization" and, “I’m concerned about it because leaders in the West are not combating it. … Unfortunately, President Biden seems to be afraid to be called an Islamophobe.” This is similar to her criticisms of Obama for being insufficiently hawkish (in her view) on the War on Terror.
Don't fall for right-wing grifters trying to take advantage of anti-war sentiment to push their agenda.
She voted for a ban on BDS and called the protests antisemitic. In fact, she said that they were "puppets" of a "radical islamist organization" and, “I’m concerned about it because leaders in the West are not combating it. … Unfortunately, President Biden seems to be afraid to be called an Islamophobe.”
Oh, I didn't know that. That's disappointing.
(Not much different from any other US politician, though.)
I guess I want to be 100% sure that Democrats are a lost cause before I give up on them.
I stupidly keep hoping Democrats will be rational enough to yield to facts.
(Democrats are always saying that they're the rational side of politics in this country.) But I'm realizing Democrats have become nothing more than BlueMAGA.
Homerian, I've been rather patient. We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings. So when I ask people to move along it's because I don't feel you'll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don't typically listen rationally.
Among other reasons, most of us who lean Left recognize that there are commonalities and where comparisons can be made between the radicalization of the Right, and some of the more radical positions those on the Left can take. We also know not every position taken on any side is inherently good or bad. For the most part we make judgment calls, which is why there are so many groups with even small differences in opinion not-on-the-Right and why we bicker. It's a weakness we have as a larger community.
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked, nor do we go out of our way to cause harm. If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King and suppress minorities, etc, we would absolutely turn against them. We follow those we follow because right now there aren't many choices, something we intend to change. We see that this is a step in the right direction, and a big one at that. Despite our honestly very valid hatred of Trump and the modern GOP, we want what's best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right. This is why we challenge you constantly. Because you're someone that wants to speak out and we strongly feel that despite your arguments you are not making strong cases, and certainly appear to be working against this greater good we are attempting to establish.
I wouldn't have spent this time if I don't feel strongly that Harris-Walz is the right direction. Nor would I stand so often if there wasn't something very real to lose. I just wish you, and others like you who don't speak up, would understand that. Y'know?
However, we are NOT MAGA [...] we want what's best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right.
Are you sure? Because, by the way, people in this thread have called me dipship, shithead, idiot, moron, puppet, troll, and told me to fuck off multiple times, invariably with a slew of upvotes.
And why? Because I said I don't think Gabbard is a Russian asset? They're making excuses for supporting genocide, but I'm the one who deserves abuse?
And you want me to believe that Democrats aren't like MAGA? It sure looks like MAGA to me, and you're telling me to not believe my own eyes. (Maybe easy for you when you're not the one being abused for the crime of disagreeing with people.)
Maybe the Democrats have become MAGA and you just don't want to notice it.
No, we're not like MAGA. I can't speak for everyone in this case, I am sure there are some who will take it too far. That's part of the nature of divisiveness. That said, let me make a list of what those on the left do agree on:
Universal healthcare
Positive, even progressive, policies and direction
Federal support of the 4-day work week
Stronger emphasis and follow-thru on climate change
Ending the war in Ukraine (not to the disadvantage of the Ukrainians or advantage of Putin) and the situation in Gaza
Slashing of the military budget (goes alongside universal healthcare)
Liveable wages and reasonable new childcare leave for any parent
Affordable education
Affordable life-saving drugs/life-changing drugs such as anti-depression meds AND universal acceptance of therapy
Businesses, owners, CEOs, and the billionaire class being held accountable
Trump. Prison. NOW
Increase on 1% taxes
Women's reproductive rights
Minority rights
Gerrymandering limitations or outright ban
Burning down the electoral college
More than two viable political parties
I'm sure some stuff is missing. Ya'll have to forgive me, I did my best off top of my head.
Somewhat more controversial is how some of us are tired of averting our eyes and turning our gazes away. Moreover, the Republicans play dirty. They fling shit, set fire to conversations, attempt to hide in plain sight in forums claiming to be someone else, will break laws if it means hurting someone they don't like, and they may even attempt to overthrow a country. Let me just grab the citation on that last one.
We are not like MAGA. We are sick of the shit. I was one of the people who pushed for us to stop being so damned tolerant BECAUSE tolerance is a BIG reason why we're where we are now. We believe in what's on that list for the benefit of all. Republicans fight against it for the benefit of the few, and more importantly the injuring of those they do not like.
So when you call us blueMAGA. When you claim we are no better. Yeah, Homerian, we tell you to suck it, because it's not true.
Btw, if Harris-Walz turned and started spouting MAGA bs, we'd turn on them in a heartbeat. We do not want a Trump or a MAGA in sheep's clothing.
By the way, the Democrats didn't become this way overnight. They were steered this way by their leadership.
The party in general follows the direction of the leaders. The people here are calling Gabbard a Russian agent because Hillary Clinton did that in 2016. The people here are okay with supporting Israel's genocide because Biden said he supports Israel.
I will be watching over the next two months to see if Harris and Walz can steer the party back to sanity, but so far it's not looking good.
This is the first time I've said anything to you. I haven't demanded any of your time.
I don't feel you'll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don't typically listen rationally.
Look at this thread. I'm being downvoted for correctly pointing out who was president of Ukraine during a particular event. For correctly pointing out when China last ruled Vietnam. For pointing out what "red scare" means.
If I fail to be persuaded by this particular online forum, it's probably because this particular forum is showing me that it doesn't care about facts.
We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, when so many others in this thread have used insults, called me stupid, and accused me of being a troll.
But you're also being very condescending. (I'm sorry, I don't know how else to respond to someone saying I "don't typically listen rationally".)
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked
Well, neither do the MAGA people. They've been tricked. They're the product of fearmongering and misinformation.
I've always hoped that the antidote to that kind of hysteria was facts and information, and I've been frustrated that MAGA people (including those in my family) aren't more receptive to facts. They've become skeptical of any information that isn't presented to them by "their side".
Now look at this thread. Facts are being downvoted. Anyone who disagrees with the Democrats must be an agent of Russian disinformation and we must distrust what they say (and we'll yell at them and insult them for good measure). And heaven forbid that anyone criticize Harris. That's what I mean by the Democrats becoming like MAGA.
If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King
Trump didn't say he would be a King.
Others said that the supreme court ruling made the president like a king. Maybe you're thinking of that.
Trump also said he would be a dictator on Day 1 (by which he meant that he would pass a lot of laws by executive order on Day 1, not that he would rule like a dictator throughout his term in office). You might be thinking of that.
We follow those we follow because right now there aren't many choices
Yeah, I understand that. I honestly do.
Like, when I say I'm leaning towards voting Trump, it's not because I love Trump. I am similarly dealing with a lack of good options.
But backing a particular horse doesn't mean you have to be uncritical of that horse and attack others who do criticize that horse. That's where you start to seem like a cult.
Harris has said some good things. (Like, I think her housing initiative is very good.) But she's also said some worrying things. (I'm currently quite rattled by her staunch pro-Israel speech, which has been followed by Israel attacking Lebanon.) I think the way to advocate for Harris is to point out what you like about her, rather than attacking people who criticize her.
You have though. In other threads, for other reasons. We have interacted. I recently re-read the Odyssey, so your name stuck with me. I know you get commonly downvoted and challenged, which is why I'm trying to be, well...hopefully understanding and not condescending. It's a fine line to walk and one I'm not sure I'm wise enough to navigate accurately, something you in fact point out. I'm not really sure how to fix that.
The reason I responded is because we aren't blindly supporting Harris, and many of us are tired of the shit flinging the Right tends to rely on. This is why I approached you here. It isn't necessarily that we don't agree with facts you may present, it's that you appear to us to be attempting to discount a hope we have that Harris and now Walz represents.
You do you. I just see you comment on here often and I feel as if it must be disheartening to constantly be getting downvoted. Challenge the status quo, express unpopular opinions. If you want people to not get defensive though, try to meet them on their level a bit. Unlike MAGA, we are reasonable. We will criticize Harris. It's just at the point where the alternative is so incredibly, maliciously evil that we, and I, legitimately fear them succeeding. We bite back because for years we were tolerant. Enough is enough.
I don't know if you'll listen or understand. I just put myself in your shoes and wanted to express what I feel must be some reasons why you seem to be disagreed with so often. Whatever others might believe, we need people who will speak out. This is just my lame attempt to make your words reach people more clearly.
They also say that about Jill Stein, and Tucker Carlson, and even Trump himself.
Do you honestly think it's possible that Russians could have taken over every aspect of American government, politics, and media except the valiant Democrats (because the Democrats are so noble and pure of heart and unable to be blackmailed).
If the Russians really could infiltrate America that thoroughly, then it would be all over already because they'd have the Democrats too.
But it's just a Democrat scare tactic to get you riled up.
When she was A Democratic Congressional Representative her top donors were Kremlin-linked interests.
When the intelligence agencies were saying a candidate in the 2020 Democratic primary was a Russian agent they were talking about Tulsi Gabbard. Members of both parties were calling her a traitor. It wasn't until she started working with the Republicans that they stopped criticizing her treason.
She tried suing Clinton over saying she was a Russian agent, but she lost because truth is an absolute defense against defamation.
She's literally dined with Putin and General Flynn, who was found guilty of colluding with Russia but was pardoned by Trump.
They also say that about Jill Stein, and Tucker Carlson, and even Trump himself.
I know you're trolling, but it's hilarious you just posted a list of people with credible ties to Russian influence as your response to someone not having ties with Russia.
I love how hard you trolls have to flounder for your rubles.
In all your bullshit, there is one kernel of truth I want to address.
Russia hasn't created anything in the shitstorm they're inflaming. This bullshit we're dealing with with all our divisions is home-grown and home-made. If you believe that all our problems are Russian, you're just setting yourself up with some home-grown xenophobia while you ignore the real problem. And Russia just falling into a sinkhole one day won't solve the massive number of problems that America has, the same problems that Adolf Hitler schemed to exploit in World War 2.
But what you don't get is that Russia HAS exploited these problems, just like Hitler did in World War 2. Russia may not have 'taken over every aspect of American government, politics, and media', but they HAVE identified useful idiots and empowered them to disrupt our nation's well of discourse.
Jill Stein has literally been photographed sitting beside Putin, and she advocates for Pro-Russian positions like withdrawing our aid to Ukraine, while inflaming fake divisions like whether or not to vaccinate against diseases. Likewise with Tucker Carlson and Mr. "I'll end the war in Ukraine on day one" Trump. We're not keen on surrendering a nation to an authoritarian dictator like Putin, so he can go oppress gays and transgendered people over there. A Trump win here would definitely enable that, not to mention a very Russian-like playbook of capturing the government's Civil Service to staff with sycophants, a Unitary Executive that has absolute power without checks and balances from the other branches of government, the total evisceration of the Minority Party's power (and the relegation of the Dems to that minority status -- Permanent Republican Majority, which preceded Trump as a Republican goal), and the codification of oppression of Gays, non-Christians, non-Whites, and women. Dems may be using scare tactics around these truths, but they are truths, and sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade.
Now, why might we call you a Russian troll? Well, let's stop and think for a moment. Trump is Russia's favourite candidate, end of line. He'll put pressure on Ukraine to play ball with giving up the disputed territories, and he'd definitely stop the flow of guns, missiles, bombs, tanks, and planes to Ukraine. While the EU may step up, 1) Russia has plans for the EU, and 2), the EU can't hope to replace what the biggest spender in military can afford to contribute. Getting the US out of Ukraine's side will improve Russia's odds and serve their purpose. We know that Russia is hiring trolls to influence Western thinking -- we have empirical evidence of this! It's part of a massive Russian (and Chinese, and Iranian) cyber plan. We've even seen their hardware -- massive banks of smartphones hooked up to a central computer run by an operator to post inflaming and discouraging comments.
Now, imagine a comment coming in having 'concerns' about how every post that defends Russian assets is 'Dems falling for scare-mongering', despite the clear evidence that Gabbard has been under Russia's thumb, defending Stein's own Russian connections, and claiming Trump of all people was not under his authoritarian buddy's thumb contrary to EVERYTHING we've seen these past 8+ years? I see your concern, pal, and see it for exactly what it is: a problem that exists only in your stupid little head, and I call you out on it.
People, this guy isn't here to honestly debate us. Keep up the good work calling his bullshit out, though!
People, this guy isn't here to honestly debate us. Keep up the good work calling his bullshit out, though!
You know, I used to do quite a lot of volunteer organizing work for the Democrats when I was younger. I was even on the Christmas card list of a federal senator. (I mean, it's not a big deal, but I valued it. I held onto those cards until last year.) I spent years of my life on that.
Buddy, you're on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, of COURSE you worked for Democrats at one time, and nobody, and I mean nobody...knows I'm a cat. Of COURSE we believe you were a Democrat at one point in your miserable life, before you started pushing fake bullshit to depress Democrat turnout.
That's why you have 7 upvotes and 0 downvotes, am I right? :)
Yeah, you keep spewing your nonsense and bullshit, and we'll keep calling you out.
I keep wondering if he would have sat quietly while Biden commits a genocide in Israel, and I feel certain he wouldn't have. He was pro-Israel, but not like that.
There are plenty of ass hats who are not seemingly tied to Russia. However Gabbard seems concretely tied to Russia, and Carlson explicitly went over there to help with Russian state propaganda. Trump has been heavily influenced by Russian manipulations, though I'm not sure if he's knowingly "on the take" or just super susceptible to being manipulated.
Haven't heard about Jill Stein, but hardly paid attention since she doesnt influence anything at all. I did look at her platform and saw the "just have Ukraine surrender to Russia" and thought that was super weird, but I chalked it up to being just terribly naive rather than assuming Russian influence.
You know, when you accuse every anti-war candidate of being a Russian agent, you’re just making Russia look better than the US.
It's not about a supposed "anti-war" stance at all, and you trying to shift the conversation to that just makes you look like you don't want discussions about the fact Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
You *do *realize Russian interference in US politics has been happening since way before any of this right? Way before even their invasion of Georgia 16 years ago. This isn't new, and it isn't about Ukraine or Israel. It's about recognizing that Russia has been spreading misinformation in the US through things like social media and even our own politicians for decades now. The US military and intelligence communities have been warning about it for just as long, it isn't new. The fact you want to make it seem like this is somehow new means you either haven't been paying any attention, or that you support Russian interests.
Given your attempt to shift the conversation away from Russian interference, I'd say the second is correct.
If they hadn't supported it, it would not have gone anywhere as the Google searches showed the general public in the UK neither knew or cared what the EU or Brexit actually were.
Google searches showed the general public in the UK neither knew or cared what the EU or Brexit actually were.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. It was a big deal. The turnout for the Brexit vote was 72%, which shows that interest in the vote was quite high. My British friends were certainly posting about it a lot on facebook. An MP was murdered over it.
And blaming Russia for the majority of the pro-Brexit sentiment is ludicrous. Boris Johnson ran bus ads saying that Brexit would allow 350 million pounds per week to go to the National Health Service. Nigel Farage was on TV all the time saying Brexit was necessary to secure Britain's borders. Rupert Murdoch's Sun newspaper was saying Brexit would mean Britons could have bendy bananas. I don't know how you look at all that and say that Russia must have been the main driver of pro-Brexit sentiment in some way that was barely noticed at the time.
The report you linked is speculating that Russia may have played a small role (along with many other things that may have played a role), and that role may have been a decisive factor because the vote was so close. That's not the same as saying that Brexit would have gone nowhere without Russia.
But yes, 28% of Britons did not vote in the referendum, which means 28% of Britons probably didn't know or care much about the EU or Brexit, and a lot of that 28% probably googled "what is Brexit?" the day after the referendum when people started to freak out about it passing.
Like many other people in this thread, you are vastly overestimating the influence that Russia has. Please stop using them as a scapegoat for everything that is going wrong with democracy in the West. I'm not saying this because I have a partisan interest in defending Russia. It's just unhelpful, makes no sense, and won't fix anything.
Read the report made by the British government, it absolutely is true that Russia, specifically Vladimir Putin, has been intent on destabilizing the west for decades now.
But it's clear you don't care about the truth, you care about pushing Russian talking points, so we're done here.
Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
Yeah, probably. Just like the USA tries to influence the population of foreign countries through efforts like Voice of America and Radio Free Asia.
But I think you’re vastly overestimating how much effect Russian propaganda has. If anything is destabilizing democracy, it’s Fox News (which has a reach hundreds of times greater than any Russia bot on Twitter). How can you worry about foreign disinformation when domestic disinformation is right in front of you and radicalizing your parents (and weird cousins).
The only reason we hear so much about Russian disinformation is because the Democrats need a boogeyman to blame their failures on. (Who haven’t the Democrats accused of being Russian agents at this point?)
You seem to be a little thick, so I'll spell it out for you.
Russia doesn't just spread their shit directly, they also use US based media companies to do the same thing. Fox News and others spread Russian talking points all the fucking time. These aren't separate phenomena you dipshit. They're related.
Russia didn't create our discordant politics, but it has sure inflamed them. Just like this shithead is shilling for Russian interests here. I see his concerns and dismiss them.
You're insulting us by being here. Go back to sucking Putin's dick.
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out."
And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, "you didn't see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them."
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it's always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don't want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, 'oh damn.' and he said "yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people."
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven't forgotten that at all.
Wow. How do you write out all of that about the importance of not giving way to even the slightest bit of fascism and then defend a president who is FUNDING A GENOCIDE.
The "shitty crustpunk bar" is called the Democrat party and it's already been taken over by genociders and you are perfectly fine with still drinking there.
You seem to think that everything is black and white. Nothing is, it's all shades of grey. No politician is perfect, No party is perfect. Nothing changes overnight, especially with foreign policy.
The US political two party system is bullshit, but it is what we have to deal with currently. Both of these parties support Israel historically, regardless of whatever propaganda anyone is trying to spin about the current genocide. US foreign policy has backed Israel since it was created, that isn't going to change overnight. Us foreign policy has also funded and supplied weaponry to many groups we later list as terrorist organizations that target the US. It's almost like this shit is complicated even if the morality of the situation isn't.
Your point about genocide is valid, and the current Zionist government in Israel has clearly gone way too far. However, your comments clearly assume everyone here supports that, which obviously isn't true, and you're intentionally misrepresenting everyone else in this thread. That's why you're getting all this negativity. You're intentionally turning all of these into strawman arguments and backing those up with other various logical fallacies to try and support your intentionally flawed strawman argument.
Because your concerns are meaningless and without merit, and repetitive, we've decided we've had enough of you and are calling you out on your bullshit. We're also keying on your sea-lioning tendencies, and just refusing to play your stupid game politely.
We'd like not to play your stupid game at all, but we know how this works. You peel off someone who isn't paying attention, getting them to vote third party or stay home on false accusations that Democrats are Russophobic, making it more likely that the Shitgibbon can steal the Election in November. Thus we have to address your bullshit and make it clear that Gabbard, Stein, and Trump DO have pro-Russian policies at a minimum, if not full on Russian ties, and that we're not red-scaring here, but pointing out that an honest to goodness Russian Autocracy lead by a Strong-Man Dictator every bit as bad as what Trump wants to be here, is pulling strings behind the scenes and inflaming already existing (and in the case of Anti-Vax, outright made up 'Moon Landing Faked/Earth is Flat' levels of bullshit fake) divisions in the country to ensure the Autocrat Trump gets into office and tears down civil rights like Putin is doing in Russia.
And I think the entire ... what does Lemmy call their equivalent of a subreddit anyway ... community is doing a good job of exposing your bullshit.
You know, insulting me doesn’t make your argument more persuasive.
Yeah, based on your commentary all over the place here, I'm thinking that wasn't the real reason. That's just the reason you chose to latch onto instead of facing the possibility that your opinions may actually be unpopular and/or misguided. That you're the one with the weird, misguided ideals, and not everyone else you interact with.
Sure, believe that, here on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, you're SURE not here doing Putin's dirty work, and nobody, and I mean nobody...knows I'm a cat. I got you mixed up with another shithead. That's what I get for multitasking.
But I'd rather get a little mixed up with which shithead I'm currently debunking than go on and on and on with the same bullshit. I'd ask you to do us both a favour and fuck off, but we know you're not gonna do that, because the master that pulls your strings is not yet done trying to inject a little chaos into the only thing between America and Authoritarianism. Right, puppet?
So you're calling me a sealion because, after dozens of messages insulting me, I pointed out that I didn't deserve to be thus abused.
And you think my politeness is some kind of manipulation instead of, oh I dunno, maybe I just don't think getting angry helps improve the quality of discourse on the internet, and also I'm mindful of the fact that this sub has rules on civility (which no one else seems to be following, but which I'm aware could get me banned by a mod if they were looking for an excuse, as often happened on reddit).
What is wrong with you? It hasn't even crossed your mind for a second that I might be a real person expressing my real thoughts, has it?
It hasn't even crossed your mind for a second that I might be a real person expressing my real thoughts, has it?
It has! And I evaluated that thought for lots more than a single second and came to the following pair of conclusions.
Either you're being disingenuous here and are everything I am accusing you of being...
Or you honestly hold these beliefs, making you a useful idiot and enabling those people who are what I accuse you of being.
I've given up assuming incompetence where there could be malice, so I'm just going straight to accusing you of being disingenuous. And I'm not the only one....that should tell you something.
So, like all of your other concerns, I'm dismissing this one.
And I evaluated that thought for lots more than a single second and came to the following pair of conclusions.
Either you’re being disingenuous here and are everything I am accusing you of being…
Or you honestly hold these beliefs, making you a useful idiot and enabling those people who are what I accuse you of being.
I’ve given up assuming incompetence where there could be malice, so I’m just going straight to accusing you of being disingenuous. And I’m not the only one…that should tell you something.
This is the exact same conclusion I've come to after all decades online now, sifting through propaganda and misinformation on social media and spread by "official" media sources owned by billionaires and spreading the agenda that benefits their owner. It doesn't matter whether the user is part of a propaganda mill, or just a useful idiot, the end result is the same and so they deserve the same treatment.
If they don't want to be treated like a foreign agent, then they should take some time to reflect on their beliefs. See if they accidentally fell into a rabbit hole of propaganda, it happens all the time. It's the reason there is so much discord between us now, and no willingness to work together. Do real, verifiable facts actually back up their points, or are those points based what they were told to think and based solely on emotion, like fear. Did they consciously make decisions to end up with those beliefs, or did they take a couple of similar sources and internalize that. Since their beliefs match those of a foreign agent trying to sow as much discord as possible, were those sources compromised or being co-opted by that foreign power?
The Overton Window in the US has shifted so far to the right over the past few decades that we no longer actually have a left wing party. The current Democratic party is more similar to Reagan's Republican party than anything resembling left wing. Reagan, as much as the Republicans lift him up, would never even get through a primary in the current Republican party. The only things even pretending to be left wing anymore are a handful of social issues, that are obvious to most other countries in the world, and have been implemented for decades already successfully. As much as the Republicans try to pain the Democrats as radicals, there is absolutely no factual basis for this beyond their skewed perception of reality. There are a couple politicians that are further left than the party, but nothing coming from any US politician is remotely radical, most of what they're calling for has been done in Europe for decades with few issues compared to our lopsided society of embarrassed millionaires who will never get close to making the money they fantasize they will have.
All three links try to answer the painful question of: "How do American voters line up on ideologies?" Gallop finds that America as a whole identifies more Conservative (36%) than Liberal (24%), with another whole 36% saying they are neither Liberal NOR Conservative. The Other Side is divided up into 20% Very Conservative, 49% Conservative, 27% Moderate, and a tiny sliver of Liberal or Very Liberal Republicans (that surprises me all by itself! Where do they find these people?!). We here on the Left count 16% as Very Liberal, 31% as Liberal, and a whopping 45% as Moderate (and another 5% as Conservatives, but we know we have those). Unfortunately, we have to deal with the fact that we live in a country where 7 out of every 20 people say they are neither Left NOR Right and view both parties from a 'pox on both' perspective. At least they're moving to our side because Fascism Bad, amirite? :)
Gallop points out that even as people become more self-identified as liberal on social issues (33% Liberal, 32% Moderate, 32% Conservative), they remain very moderate to conservative on economic issues (23% Liberal, 35% Moderate, 39% Conservative). That's why Liberals have to focus on social issues because economic issues don't favour them. 69% of voters in the Democratic Party agree on liberal approaches to social issues, while only 49% favour a conservative approach.
But above all, the most interesting one is the YouGov poll. When people were asked about how their politics was described, 21% said "Moderate" described them well, and another 33% said it described them partially. Conservative got 28% and 25% on the same areas. Progressive only scored 18% and 24% in those areas, and Liberal scored 16% and 24%. Socialist? 7+21%. Left Wing? 11+16%. But they went further. They asked which terms used to describe the respondants, and which terms never described them. Socialist and Left-Wing shared a stat line on that response -- 51% of people said these terms NEVER described them, while another 6% said the terms used to describe them. Only Radical (64%) and Anarchist (67%) scored harder on the 'I have never been this).
I'm not sure I agree with the notion that today's Democrats are Reagan's Republicans, but as long as you keep in mind that you live in a country that over half of people polled vehemently disagreed with being labelled socialist or left-wing, and tailor your solutions to account for that, while trying to do the best to represent Progressive or Liberal goals, I won't complain hard about whether or not 2024 Dems would be at home in the 1980 RNC.
A McDonalds employees named Bob tweeting something, and then Alice agreeing with it does not make Alice a McDonalds agent. It means she agreed with what Bob tweeted, even if he was being subversive/malicious
You know, for someone so damn sure he's right, you're getting many, many, many suggestions you're wrong. In the form of only you agreeing with yourself (by one upvote) and literally 17 people telling you 'you're off base here'. Maybe you should LISTEN to that.
Rupert Murdoch is most definitely a Russian Stooge. Let's not forget what that means:
He, like the Russians, wants to live in a country that:
Makes religion part of the ruling class of the country.
Shits on people who are not part of the established religion from the last point.
Shits on gays.
Shits on minorities.
Rah-Rah-Rahs the military.
Declares lists of enemies, both inside and outside the country.
Dismisses the Arts.
Dismisses academics and scientists.
His news agencies, world-wide, are pushing for alt-right authoritarian solutions to the problems we face. From Australia to Europe and to the US, his BS is pushing us further right. He's not working for the Russians. He's working with them, for the same goal, to dismantle self-determination and civil rights and replace liberal democracies (the old definition, not just Leftist) with authoritarian dictatorships, world-wide. He is also working with Xi and Kim and Netanyahu and Maduro and a host of other people who are less concerned about Capitalism vs. Communism and much, MUCH, MUCH more concerned about ending the experiment we've had with Democracy because it gets in the way of making a profit.
And all your bullshit here? It's in support of Trump, Putin, Xi, Maduro, Kim, Netanyahu, and all the other dictators trying to crush democracy and install fellow autocratic stooges in other countries. That's why we're calling you out on your fucking bullshit. Now fuck off already.
It’s in support of Trump, Putin, Xi, Maduro, Kim, Netanyahu, and all the other dictators trying to crush democracy and install fellow autocratic stooges in other countries.
No, no, see he also is saying that people calling him out support Israel killing Palestinian children. So clearly he must be right since he is pointing out the obvious genocide, while lumping all of his opponents into a single, simple intentionally misrepresented category.
/s just in case that wasn't blatantly obvious, since there are clearly idiots amongst these comments.
I’m sure you’ve heard of Pol Pot and the killing fields of Cambodia.
Did you know who stopped Pol Pot? It was Vietnam. Vietnam, already devastated by a series of wars, undertook a invasion of Cambodia and deposed Pol Pot, partly because Pol Pot was killing ethnic Vietnamese people who lived in Cambodia.
And throughout the whole thing, America condemned Vietnam. America accused Vietnam of being expansionist. America was on Cambodia’s side.
And who was president of Ukraine while that was happening? Viktor Yanukovich, pro-Russian stooge and convicted traitor.
Now, why would a pro-Russian Ukrainian be giving Russia cover to invade Ukraine? I'm sure we'll never know, but maybe there are some falsehoods we can flag and eliminate from consideration.
(Reminder that the Donbas is majority ethnic Russian and has been fighting for independence from Ukraine since 2014, which resulted in them being bombed by their own government.)
Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.
This is another joke right? Russia has infamously been leveling towns to take territory, specifically targeting civilian shelters, and been caught torturing civilians.
The Internet Research Agency, known in Russian Internet slang as the Trolls from Olgino or Kremlinbots, was a Russian company which was engaged in online propaganda and influence operations on behalf of Russian business and political interests. It was linked to Yevgeny Prigozhin, a former Russian oligarch who was leader of the Wagner Group, and based in Saint Petersburg, Russia.
Russia supports Palestine because Israel is an ally of the US. If tomorrow the US decided to end it's alliance with Israel and become allies with Palestine, Russia would suddenly become against Palestine and seek to form an alliance with Israel.
There are few morals in geopolitics and there are no friends, only interests.
There are few morals in geopolitics and there are no friends, only interests.
It's funny how everyone was so excited about this rule in those years before 1939. Then for a short time some people experimentally realized that maybe some morals would be fine.
No, no politician ever believed that, but I'm confident that the reason we are only going into similar shit now is that before that there was a kind of common irrational memory, popular pressure for some morals to be followed.
The population of the western countries (except Germany, which till 80s was, eh, what it was) was rather interested in morals, anti-fascist and anti-colonial, and also (including even Germany) wanted peace on earth and goodwill towards men.
There's another rule - people so excited about backstabbing and intrigue can't honestly face their enemies, which means they can't honestly face themselves which is harder. They are weak. They are good at collectively making it appear that they are strong, but earlier or later the truth becomes clearly visible.
Everything changes, morals (not those about sexual life and religion and even honesty, but those about strength and dignity and friendship) don't, since not even Marcus Aurelius, but since Gilgamesh epic. That's because they are an evolutionary advantage. Nothing that isn't can perpetuate itself into future, and many generations have changed since then, but we still have those notions.
You should look into the atrocities committed by Russia, if you like hearing about atrocities. Then you could look into some of the things Hamas has done.
How do you go about choosing which atrocities you care about and which ones you look the other way about? Is it based on the ethnicity of the perpetrators or the ethnicity of the victims? Or is it the atrocities that are committed against people in countries that are aligned with the US you look the other way on?
Just want to figure out method to your selective empathy.
How do you go about choosing which atrocities you care about and which ones you look the other way about? Is it based on the ethnicity of the perpetrators or the ethnicity of the victims?
Oh, here comes the white victimhood.
Yes, people hate the USA because Americans are white and not because the USA fosters wars in their countries, provides military support to oppressive governments and fosters coups against democratically elected governments.
Haha this guy... Acting like Putin cares when he happily helped Assad bomb his own people all the while invading a Sovereign nation for imperial ambitions hahahah
Not to mention many more conflicts not explicitly called out in the chart, like the Russo-Japanese war, the umpteen conflicts in Myanmar, India-Pakistan, Korean War, Iran-Iraq, gulf war, Syrian revolution, East Timor… I could go on, but there’s no point. It’s like trying to teach a dog turd to go fetch.
And in what sense can you say that China "completely fucked" Vietnam? Vietnam won that war, and Vietnam was a unified country before, during, and after that war.
But only the Democrats think liberalism means peace.
Edit: Imagine thinking that there’s an ideological difference between Democrats and the GOP (beyond the Democrats feeling a little more guilty about slavery).