What is your voting red line?

Voting takes up a relatively small amount of time. In my case, just filling in a mail in ballot, so I didn't even need to drive somewhere. If that's the extent of the required participation every few years, I would do so even if the tangible benefits were marginal, since the costs are so trivial.

Some anarchists historically have refused to participate in voting to deny legitimizing the state. This is an ideologically pure and legitimate stance, but it's difficult for me to see what that achieves practically other than the ideological purity.

If I try to look as objectively and dispassionately as possible at the practical outcomes of democrat and republican governments in the US, the democrat governments, while still corporate captured and moving further to the right, does pass some legislation that has, at times, reduced suffering for some of the most in need. It is still completely insufficient, but for many, I'm sure it has made life more bearable, and in many cases saved lives.

Climate legislation has a similar result, with Republicans blocking all bills that could help, where as democrats were able to get some passed that, while insufficient due to still having to appease capitalist interests, are definitely way better than nothing. Seeing as we have so little time to impact climate change, I will generally prioritize practical outcomes more than ideological purity, because ultimately if global warming gets bad enough, there will be very little humanity left to be ideologically anything at all.

There are many other parts of society that would also very quickly suffer under this republican candidate and underlings in particular, such as trans people, immigrants, and women.

That leaves the genocide, which both parties will continue to participate in, and which makes voting for either party ideologically disgusting. Again, I personally try to detach my own feelings on this and to consider the practical outcome, which is that regardless of my choice to vote or not, that suffering and inhumanity will most likely continue, and my lack of a vote does nothing to reduce it. With that in mind, I only consider the things my vote potentially could change, which so far are still worth the 5 minutes I personally have to commit.

Ultimately I know that my vote only delays a fascist state, but it also makes it more survivable for some along the way, and that's not to be dismissed, even if the same group making it more survivable for some is simultaneously enabling genocide.

There's a lot of variables, and it's deeply unjust that I'm forced into a position to have to weigh these variables between greedy power hungry cretins who enable so much suffering, but that's what I'm left with. You could think of it as picking which enemy you want to face.

But as for your question of where the line in the sand is for me to consider it not worth voting; I would consider it pointless if either party would result in near enough the same amount of suffering overall, and the only difference is the flavor (a random example, choosing between a Soviet Union style authoritarian state vs a mafia state like modern Russia)

Or,

The election is so thoroughly corrupt that my votes, if counted at all, will consistently be rendered useless by an absurd number of fake votes to where the whole thing is a charade (modern Russia).

But that's just my two cents :)

Use all the tools at your disposal. Vote for the better of the candidates, and then also take direct action or whatever.

It’s stupid to “protest the system” by rejecting the method it does give you to steer it. If it’s ineffectual, you’ve lost nothing. If you happen to be one of 10,000 that markedly changes the outcome away from an outwardly evil candidate, then you have made a significant positive difference.

What do you mean by "doesn't work"? Doesn't get us to an anarchist society? Well yeah, if you had enough votes to get there you wouldn't even need to vote. People would just forget about all these made up ideas because who needs them? We can make up better ideas whenever we want.

If you mean "the outcome of the election will have no material impact on the world in which we live" then... i'm gonna have to disagree.

TBH i could leave this reply here but i'm going to elaborate anyway.

Yeah, both parties are strongly pro-genocide, against the wishes of the American people i might add. Genocide is not up for a vote. There are things that are, however. Such as how Arabic looking people will be treated in the US or how trans people will be treated--whether they'll be allowed to exist at all.

I also don't think it's inevitable that a society that's moving in a fascist direction will become full on fascist. I'm not gonna bet on it in the US's case, the US has been kinda crypto-fascist since at least W and before. Really, the US's problems predate and kind of inspired the modern concept of "fascism". Voting won't fix that, though. Not in the US or elsewhere.

Anti-fascist politics are not up for a vote, either. That doesn't mean there's nothing that can be done. Quite the opposite, there's a ton that can be done. Build a local anti-fascist, pro-community coalition and power base. Hell, you can build local political (electoral) power, too.

The Republicans didn't get to where they are now because all the old fossils from the 1950s suddenly went insane. It took decades of pushing crazy politics on a local level to get to where we are. They got up early and worked real fucking hard to make sure fascism was accepted, that it would be on the ballot, and that it would win. We could do the same, if we wanted. It'd be even easier for us, in some senses. Our goal is much more reasonable and does not require total power over everyone's lives. We just don't have anywhere near the same resources.

I think my voting red line would be when voting doesn't make a difference anymore.

For example if we had one participant in the election who wanted Bibi to finish the job in Gaza, deport all the illegal immigrants and any number of the legal ones, put his political opponents in prison, use the power of the presidency to make sure future elections were "fair," undo any and all climate regulations, IDK do I really need to keep going? And then if their opponent also wanted to do that, then voting doesn't matter. If instead of that, their opponent has literally any minor or major flaw whatsoever, but isn't planning on ending democracy and shooting all the anarchists and Palestinians, then voting to choose that participant can be a good thing.

I really don't get this logical framework where voting is doing some kind of favor for the politician class. They don't give a shit. They mostly get paid either way. Someone wins, maybe it's one person or the other, but in any case, voting is a way to influence the government to do thing A or thing B. If you don't care which one it is, then you don't need to vote. If thing B is objectively a murderous horror, then choosing thing A can be a good idea in terms of self-preservation, even if thing A is also not exactly what you want.

Kamala Harris isn't shooting any Palestinians. She didn't start the war, she's not in charge of the government that's aiding and supporting the war. She might or might not do enough to prevent if she wins. Probably she won't. How does that make it irrelevant whether we get her, or we get the guy who wants to accelerate the war and kill more Palestinians and also a whole bunch of other people of all kinds of ethnicities worldwide?

What is this argument? That if enough people don't vote, the government will say "Aww, you got me!" and fold and collapse and then it'll finally be anarchist utopia? No, they love people not giving a shit about politics. It lets them do whatever they want without worrying about suffering at the ballot box for it. If all the young motivated caring-about-Palestinians type of people stopped voting, they'd be thrilled, and then they'd just keep doing whatever and every so often gun down a protest or put them all in prison whenever they got out of line.

At what point will anarchists stop bikeshedding about voting?

Are you saying not using a democratic system is going to avoid facism???

I have been raised with the phrase that voting a duty because a democratic system is not for granted and the rights to vote have been fought for. I live in the Netherlands and I don't say it is perfect (far from) but we have a democratic, functional political system. It is moving to the right quickly but as long as I can vote I will. There is no anarchistic party of course but I at least use my vote to vote for left.

Voting as valid political action: Valid as in correct, no. Valid as in relevant, yes.

SocietalNational (personal: GER) progress towards fascism: ~20-30% far-right extremism (state-labelled) since 2015 with regional disparities. Regional liberal-antifascist campaigns have been moderately successful, but the response to CoViD impacted far-right radicalism, media campaigns against migration are constant and begin to bear fruits. East German antifascists begin to see local lost causes for campaigning.

that voting ultimately doesn't work

Function of voting systems is periodic ruler succession, the alternative without any disruption is inheritance. Anarchists don't want any rulers, inherited or voted, but anarchists aren't too commonly a critical population in a society.

that voting ultimately doesn't work

Functionality of voting systems is broken when trust in personal choice, equality and secrecy in voting of rulers is broken. Ruler sucession voting systems don't ensure ruler behaviour.

My red line is the existence of nation states and standing armies. What is the point? The military runs any nation that has one even if the population is unaware. I've never been presented with an option when I lived in the US that didn't directly support US military interventionism and the destruction of the place my family originates from, so I didn't vote in federal elections. The constitution is literally broken and the structure of the government there is less democratic than Iran, but the Americans will never see it. The ultimate say on laws there are lifetime positions that come up when they randomly die or a fascist is in power, so they step down, it is the most comically ridiculous and frankly dishonest system I've ever come in contact within my life. Right now Americans are saying if you don't vote for an appointed candidate who is a literal fucking cop then you are supporting a fascist, they have gone into nonsense land and there is no return. What even is the point. It is so sad and tragic the totalitarian mind control they are forced to live under. Most of them will never travel and will never see it from the outside.

I'm in the (years long) process of migrating and establishing residency elsewhere, but the US is a prison and I'm actually not really allowed to just leave.

The thing foe me was that I felt by voting I was giving legitimacy to the system and in some way (even minimally) playing a part in its oppression and abuse. I want people to see that voting is not the only way to achieve change, and that "direct action gets the goods."

On top of this I feel by voting "left" no matter what just as harm reduction, you are teaching politicians that that is enough to earn a vote. That as long as they maintain being marginally better than the opposition, it doesnt matter what they do. They can depend on your vote cause at least they arent the other guy. I view voting left no matter what is exactly what has gotten us into this mess, not as a way to fight it. I do not view voting as harm reduction, as voting has not stopped fascism in the past, and it will not now.

I vote on individual issues, and if there is a good enough candidate I will vote in local elections. Otherwise I do not vote.

I thought I left raddle.