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Google Loses Antitrust Case Brought by Epic Games

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Original (pay-walled): https://www.wsj.com/tech/google-loses-antitrust-case-brought-by-epic-games-651f5987

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  • I don't like Google (and they deserve an L), but Epic really shouldn't be given a win either. Pardon my Australian, but Tim Sweeney is cunt with ulterior motives and dreams of buying his way into his own monopoly.

    • While epic aren't the white knight we want, anti competitive practices should be stamped out. It's come out that Spotify get special terms. How can anyone new compete with them? The cut taken by app stores for what is effectively payment process in most cases is crazy.

      They command the power as they have users. However most users don't choose to be there. They have no choice but to use the app stores. It is technically possible to download from elsewhere, at least on Android, but it gets harder and harder to do so.

      Personally, a few years ago I never would have co sidered an android phone without gapps. Now it's becoming more and more clear that it's a necessity. More and more tracking. More and more rorting. More fees. More micro transactions. More and more locked down.

    • I can’t wait for Google to sue Epic for using their market share to put out their engine for free to add market share and then exert pressure on game developers by having a yearly subscription/seat and royalties.

    • Best case scenario is that they destroy each other.

    • care to layout how he buy his way into his own monopoly?

      • buy exclusives or studio? most big publishers do that.
      • give free games out? It's consumer friendly.
      • drive Valve or other store front out of business? lol
      • make EGS/EOS so good and free that no one wants to publish on Steam? lol, any advance in that 2 department Steam as platform will respond way before they take foot hold. (EOS voice chat back end does work nicer compare to steam's one if the game build for it. BUT, many gamers just use discord instead.)

      anything I missed?

      Epic's capital is tiny compare to other big publishers.(MS, Sony, Tencent)

        • buy exclusives or studio? most big publishers do that.

        In the case of studios or intellectual property owned by a publisher, you can (unfortunately) expect that to be exclusive to the publisher. When games don't have the funding to make it past development, taking publishing deals are a necessary evil that often come with similar provisions.

        Epic has a habit with inserting itself in projects that don't need its funding, however. They have a track record of finding indie games that were funded by Kickstarter and offer up a loan in exchange for timed exclusivity to their storefront—backers who already paid for GOG or Steam keys be damned. They even bought out Rocket League and delisted it from Steam, even though it was already published and had been on the platform for years.

        I can't criticize Epic for making their own properties exclusive, but I can absolutely criticize them for being anticompetitive and consumer-unfriendly. Their publishing deals aren't made in good faith as an investment in the game or future profits, but as a means to remove the consumer's choice and funnel prospective consumers into their own storefront.

        • give free games out? It's consumer friendly.

        This is the one thing I will give them credit for, actually. It is an excellent business model for creating growth and getting users invested in their ecosystem, and it doesn't actually hurt the consumer.

        • drive Valve or other store front out of business? lol

        That would be the goal of a monopoly, yes.

        • make EGS/EOS so good and free that no one wants to publish on Steam? lol, any advance in that 2 department Steam as platform will respond way before they take foot hold.

        Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with this. Are you saying other storefronts/platforms on PC aren't free, or that Epic Games Store currently does a better job?

        anything I missed?

        I'm not saying Steam should be the only platform; competition benefits us as consumers. But Epic is shady, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest they aren't doing what they are doing for the good of anybody but themselves. Any action they take needs to be looked at critically and analyzed for long-term consequences.

        With their win against Google, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that they create an Epic Mobile Games Store to siphon a large chunk of the massive and extremely profitable mobile gaming market. It's better than Google having 100% of it, but you can be pretty sure that they would try everything in their power to pull the ladder up after they climb it.

        • Here's some more:

          • Bought Rocket League and immediately stopped maintaining the perfectly working Linux version that people paid for
          • Sold people Fortnite Save the World (PvE mode) and stopped caring about it when the Battle Royale mode took off, it was never finished

          Also I don't know if this is really anti-consumer but as an Unreal fan I still hate them for it:

          • Stopped working on the new Unreal Tournament when Fortnite Battle Royale took off
          • Took the old Unreal games off the store for no real reason

        • They even bought out Rocket League and delisted it from Steam, even though it was already published and had been on the platform for years.

          As a PSN/Steam launch Rocket League player and still playing. The only thing I don't like about this decision is that it's losing the workshop integration since Epic doesn't have their own implementation. Otherwise I don't blame them for doing this and it does not affect any "new" players after the F2P switch. Workshop was eventually rectified with community mod for EGS version but I wish there is workshop maps on consoles as well, some of them are really well made, my son love those a lot.

          Note, it does not mean I like or approve how they run Rocket League and recent changes. In fact I decided to stop buying anything on RL with recent removal of player trading until they implement new features or improve RL that's worth my bucks. I've paid enough in RL to let me go another 5~7 years for my share of server cost. (base on my calculation of hosting a server with similar capacity, my numbers might be off but pretty sure I paid more than enough. average around 70~90 CAD each year since launch. )

          I can’t criticize Epic for making their own properties exclusive

          If I buy off Skyrim's right and have my own store and did the calculator for risk and return, you'd be dame sure I will delist it and only host on my store so I don't have to pay another store front 30% for the new Alan Wake II engine powered version of Skyrim.

          Why buying exclusive deals are everywhere because making profitable games are almost like making correct bet on penny stocks. As a developer I would choose safe income to ensure we can keep going if no one else is willing to offer exclusivity deals. Those deals are really good for indie games especially if they are self-publishing instead of having to split with a stronger backing publisher. This is the part most steam worshiper or people that criticize Epic's moves don't get their head around and then threaten to "boycott" their once "loved" projects or developers, call them greedy, and abandon the fans, or backers. I believe some dev even promise to give out steam/gog keys after the exclusive deal expires but still getting shamed to death by accepting such deal. Developers aren't your personal slaves, they got bills to pay and company to run.

          Sorry, I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at with this. Are you saying other storefronts/platforms on PC aren’t free, or that Epic Games Store currently does a better job?

          No, sorry for my failed sarcasm, EGS as storefront are probably worse than EA's Origin that was retired or Ubisoft's crazy Uplay. It's impossible with the current market share and dominance from Steam even if Epic actually put serious resource into making EGS better, and we all know they aren't. Because any right minded person would put more resource on product that make them money, for Epic it's Fortnite, for Valve it's Steam and not [Insert project name] 3. Just like Gabe have his plenty of pet projects, Tim also have his own pet store front and law suits. Rich people do what rich people do.

          And, I want to point out, Tencent the venture capital/investment arm and Tencent the publisher is very different entity. Like yeah they have the CCP tie and stuff but the people that runs the venture capital is just similar to any other venture capital, they want their investment make them profit. Compare to say, EA/Activision buying your studio, I've heard better things from industry friends. Oh, and they would try to avoid publish that Tencent owns their shares etc to avoid this kinda of finger pointing from internet folks. Even the Tencent venture capital people knows this and suggest keeping acquisition/investment under wrap. Epic is public company so they have to disclose. Wouldn't it make sense? If you are a venture capital project manager would you:

          1. pick and invest company that have good potential and planning to carry out their project and product then make big bucks in return and racking in your bonus. Less effort more result?

          2. invest and dip your fingers into everything you can using your board voting power thus make future investment collaboration more difficult. And then getting fired because the company complaint in postmortem?

          EA/Activision did their thing because they were in the game of owing your IP and then cut you off from your creation. They have long history of doing that and then fuck up the sequels/prequels/reboots, they don't care since they got what they wanted. EA was doing much better now from what I can hear.

          My points and arguments are solely on don't view Epic as a malicious actor and focus on what changes it can bring to the digital game selling store front. Way too many people just "fuck Epic" and does not see the full picture and place their loyalty with a platform, just like fans of console wars. For example, during the past sale, I bought Witchfire on EGS, bought Cyberpunk on GOG even though I don't have good experience with Galaxy, almost bought the new Jedi on EA Play but decided against it because Disney doesn't need more of my money and I should not give in to my StarWars fan itch and buy a so-so product from the reviews I read. I made my purchase decision solely on one simple rule, how can I give the developer more revenue cut from the purchase I made.

      • Is @PenguinTD@lemmy.ca an astroturfer or simply clueless? Maybe we'll never know...

      • I would use EGS, but they don't support Linux. Additionally they are deliberately building a walled-garden version of NFTs where you exchange "Vbucks" for emotes and skins that can work across UE games, thereby encouraging more devs to use their engine, and more customers to play games on their engine. That feels gross, centralized, and anti-consumer.

        Steam lets devs use any engine, and enables players to use any OS via proton. Any DRM or anticheat present is up to the devs. Yeah, I have a library that is centralized on steam, and that's not ideal, but it doesn't feel like they're exploiting that...yet. Epic doesn't even have market share yet and it already feels like they're exploiting everything they can.

        Valve's push on Linux is THE reason that Microsoft isn't forcing Steam, EGS, EA Play, etc, to go through the Windows Store, which would allow msft to take 30% of all their sales. Both Valve and Epic are fighting the same battle, just valve is fighting with innovation and pro consumer options, and epic is fighting in court against the same kinds of walled gardens they're building.

        • Valve's steam provides values to consumer but aren't entirely "consumer friendly". Some of their "give ins" are entirely because of competition.

          Examples:

          • self refund and refund window, directly copy EA's origin.
          • allow big publisher to negotiate store cut, direct response to Epic's store cut.
          • linux push is entirely for steam's own survival, not a pro-consumer move.
          • their policy changes on steam reviews over the years.
          • the Steam UI revamp multiple times and makes discovery pretty messy when they tried to gamify the discovery process. All for easier marketing campaign pushes. (I found it pretty annoying, but I also don't like the Netflix style on EGS or other store front.)
          • Valve's market place and their key/lootbox and cross game drops are among the pioneers just shy of the scummy gacha from the mobile space.
          • Valve's policy dictates that you can not sell at lower price on different store front. Ie. a game dev selling on EGS can take off 18% and get the same amount of revenue from the store front, but they can't price lower because of Valve's policy. That's not consumer friendly.

          The fact that Valve can just charge 30% even if a developer didn't use "any" steam feature is simply because they can. And we are all eating the cost cause developers have to factor that in as well.

          • I don't think "pro consumer" is mutually exclusive with "because of competition". In fact, I would say the two necessarily overlap. If a company does something pro consumer that isn't driven by competition, then it's just charity, not "capitalistic" at all. The point I'm making is that, Epic often seems to be on the other side: taking actions that are driven by competition, but not good for consumers. As I stated above, the linux push by valve is the same fight that Epic is battling in courts vs Apple and Google; the difference is that consumers benefit from the linux push, whereas mostly just Epic benefits from their court battles (and maybe some other companies).

            • I don't think steam refund was driven by EA offering refunds on EA-exclusives. It was in direct response to Early Access titles being posted that were just obvious scams, with no recourse once you've purchased the game (maybe you read EA as a motivator somewhere and assumed Electronic Arts rather than Early Access?)
            • I agree valve could afford to take a smaller cut. I do believe Epic is directly to thank for all the Sony exclusive ports to PC.
            • linux support is 100% motivated by valve's business interests, but also, it's good for consumers
            • I'd need to know specifics about reviews over the years. I don't read reviews, but I know they have to make a deliberate effort to prevent review bombing. "Curators" are a waste of everyone's time.
            • TBH I feel like the Steam UI changes at a glacier's pace compared to almost any other UI. It's really not that different from what it was 20 years ago.
            • Yeah, the key/lootbox stuff is a valid criticism. I don't like any digital economy that's clearly fishing for whales.
            • AFAIK, steam's price parity policy only requires that free steam keys not be sold off the platform for less than what they're sold for on the steam store. Which makes sense, as that would open the door to just freeloading your game on the platform. I could post my game on steam for $1,000,000, never sell any copies through steam, then generate free steam keys, and sell them over on my own site for $30, keeping 100% of the profits. If allowed, every dev would just do that, and no one would ever purchase through steam. But it sounds like their policy would allow for a game to be $50 on steam, and $40 on EGS.

            Meanwhile, EGS is constantly signing exclusivity deals on their platform, preventing them from selling on any other platform at all, which is very clearly anti-consumer.

            The fact that Valve can just charge 30% even if a developer didn’t use “any” steam feature

            The fact that the Valve is facilitating streamlined distribution of the game (and any updates) to thousands, or millions of players at the same time alone means they are already taking advantage of steam's features. That is a huge amount of bandwidth savings and complexity that the developer just doesn't have to think about.

            • There is actually a case going on regarding the platform pricing parity.

              http://blog.wolfire.com/2021/05/Regarding-the-Valve-class-action

              And there are other articles that checks for if you can sell at lower price(without temp sales) on EGS, only 5 out of 41 did so. I take it with some handful of salt cause ars didn't actually list out the games and who is the publisher behind those 5. That's why I post the first link from a developer's stand point. We will only know details once the case developed more.

              Regarding reviews, it's like manage or moderate a forum, but it has huge impact if your changes aren't communicated, I just list this one but if you are more interested you can dig up older/newer changes. Simply put, if it wasn't through backlash and developers pulling teeth to push some odd changes like this back to a more neutral place. (ie. Early Access Reviews, Product received for free, product refunded tags are all much later than this article.) Steam's reviews would be something like youtube shorts that I simply skip. Is it better in the end? I don't know, cause you can still influence how popular a review is by the upvote/found useful from marketing campaign. Extra costs from developer to marketing(and still subject them to exploits), harder to navigate for consumer(like Amazon reviews), it's really messy and not really consumer/producer friendly.

              I put my points in simply because there is a overwhelming "worshiping" of Valve/Steam that make the 30% cut seems justifiable, and distribution for digital good seriously can't be more expensive than physicals right? you can go check how much average Amazon charges seller even given it's dominant position as digital market place. Or simply put it this way, youtube/netflix/social bandwidth consumption is bigger than game distributions for average user. It might be a case for triple-As that come at ~45G per game but vast majority of games are about 1~2 hours worth of streaming(<20GB), I'd like Valve simply provide a usage based charge like cloud providers and developers can pick and choose what features they wanted to pay accordingly. 30% cut is not normal just as lootbox is not normal, they did it simply because they can. (as in traditional brick-and-mortar shop like BestBuy charging extras for cables etc, even with Amazon as competitor.)

              Sorry if I miss some parts to provide follow ups, simply too tired to focus on stuff. Mark my words, once Gabe passed gamers are gonna have the reckoning coming for them. All my purchases are based on how much money the developers can get at the end. I buy games on store/launcher even if I don't like them, but if more bucks goes to developer, that's where I choose to buy. That's the important part, we buy stuff to support the developer we like/love, not to support the "platform" selling them.

              • Yeah, I was aware of the case, but I'm confused because it does sound like Valve's policy only explicitly restricts the sale of free keys for less. Obviously, I'm all for Valve being held accountable if they're actually requiring the game be the same price on a completely different platform.

                I don't think there's any difference between "justifiable" and "simply because they can". If they can, then they can. Yeah, I do support developers, but I'd be lying if I said steam doesn't add any value to my experience. If it wasn't 30% worth of value, devs wouldn't choose it. And I'm all for EGS undercutting them to attract developers, I think that's the right way to combat it.

                If there is any regulation that needs to happen to combat monopolies, then I think it's the same regulation that needs to happen on all content distribution and streaming platforms, which is: there should be a standard API for accessing content in a cross-platform way so that open source front-ends can be trivially developed. If steam (or netflix, or spotify, or google, or whatever) has established too much power, it's because they've locked their users into their user experience, and it's inherently inconvenient to have to switch between different platforms and UIs. But if regulation forced a common API, and open source front-ends were developed, people wouldn't be locked into a specific user experience. You could switch between EGS or Steam or GOG or whoever, and the only thing that would change are the games that show up in your front-end of choice. IMO that's the real way to solve it.

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