2y ago

UK Labour are too Tory for me.

UK Labour are too Tory for me.
I've threatened that they've lost my vote. (edit)
On LGBTQIA, specifically trans rights.
On their plans for the NHS.
On their plans for health and wealth inequalities in the UK.
On their plans for the relationship the UK has with Europe.
They have to be less Tory to get my vote back.
It's not acceptable that to not vote Tory, we have to settle for what they offer. They assume their position is acceptable.
If they correct their position, I'll reconsider
@ukpolitics

86 comments

“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”
Labour and the Tories are not the same. The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
- Labour and the Tories are not the same
  No, they're not. But that doesn't make them good. Less bad, perhaps, but good is a stretch.
  The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
  Voters are apathetic because they rarely (if ever) get to vote for something, usually it's voting to stop something/somebody else.
  
  I agree that voting these days seems to be about “holding one’s nose” and picking the party most likely to stop something.
  I blame FPTP.
  At the moment, if you’re right-leaning there’s essentially just one party of note but if you’re left-leaning you’ve got some choices.
  With PR, I believe more people would be able to just vote for what they want to see.
- @C4d Only if people fail to see that there are multiple narratives, which include telling Labour I require they change under threat of no vote. They like others know not of my intention, the cost to them is clear, a lost vote, which is what they require. They earn my vote, they work for it. Hopefully ppl who are dissatisfied will see that another way exists and instead demand better, not to succumb to their own apathetic thought processes.
  
  I think this argument (and your voting “power”, or at least your ability to directly influence the direction of a political party) would work better in a PR rather than FPTP system.
  At the moment, losing your vote may or may not cost anyone anything if you’re among a demographic that consistently votes one way or the other.
  If you had time on your hands, you could join the local representation of the party of your choice and begin to influence it that way. Unfortunately, not all demographic groups have the luxury of free time.
This is a good summary of Labour's actual policy positions, which are very different from your characterisation of them. You obviously have the right to vote for whoever you want to, for whatever reasons, but it's better to root your behaviour in reality, not rhetoric.
- Thank you! It's actually worrying how much people seem to be basing their idea of what party policy will be on soundbites they've heard.
  This country is in dire need of some political literacy. Thinking that the Tories and Lib Dems are somehow better on LGBQT issues than Labour would be hilarious if it wasn't a damning indictment of the intelligence of British voters.
- Would you be able to unlock the article for us by any chance? 🙏
  
  Search for it on archive.is
  If you're on Firefox you can add a filter for paywalls to uBlock Origin.
- @frankPodmore Unfortunately the pay wall prevents others from seeing this. I've read the entire article via the link given and it doesn't address several of my points, so I'm not clear which policy positions you're referring to.
  In fact the opening paragraph agrees with me:
  "It has been said that in sidelining the Labour party’s Corbynite left wing and manoeuvring it towards the centre, Sir Keir Starmer has made the UK opposition barely distinguishable in tone from the governing Conservatives."
  
  No, it doesn't agree with you. Really basic reading comprehension error, there. It says people have said that, not that it is true. It spends the following 600 words demolishing that case.
  
  Paywalls are easily circumvented. This isn't a good excuse.
  For the uninitiated; Copy the article address and paste it into the search bar on archive.is. There are multiple paywall bypass methods, this is just one.
- @frankPodmore My characterisation is broad and lacking detail, mostly for word count. There are other policies I've not detailed either.
  As I've said elsewhere, my voicing my opinion to Labour and other left parties is as important as my vote.
  
  That is definitely less important than your vote. Also, I'm unconvinced you've read the article in the time you've had since I posted it.
  EDIT: Why have you replied in so many different comments? I can't follow your argument if it's spread out like this!
- @frankPodmore I have rooted my behaviour in reality by telling them what I want. Additionally, I also have the absolute right to change my mind as many times as I wish and to vote tactically, come the GE dependent on the facts available at the time.
  We should all be able to make on the spot decisions based on the available data and only rely on heuristics if the data isn't available.
  What I tell them and what I do, are not Labour's concern.
  
  Your description of what you want is virtually value-free, because it's framed entirely negatively. It sounds like you want 'not the Tories'. The article makes the case that Labour are 'not the Tories', as does history and, frankly, common sense.
You don't vote FOR a party in a first past the post system. You tactivally vote against.
- @Garfvynneve What I tell them I'm planning to do doesn't have to match with what I'll actually do.
  We all can do this to demand better.
The famous Labour double bind:
If a left leaning Labour lose the election, it's because they don't appeal to voters. If a right leaning Labour lose the election, it's because the left didn't vote for them.
- @Fedegenerate I didn't say I won't vote for them, I just told them they had lost my vote.
  Staying silent and voting for a not good enough Labour let's them think they are. Telling them I won't even though I might vote for them, and describing why, gives them an opportunity to evaluate.
  If they're not good enough for you and yours what are you doing to change that? My strategy is one way. There are others.
  
  don't think I'm describing what you think I'm describing.
  I'm describing the no win situation right leaning Labour supporters try to force left leaning people into.
  I.e. 1 When a Labour leader they don't like loses an election it's the left's fault. 2 When a leader they do like loses an election it's the left's fault.
  I saw the same double bind being envoked in this thread, so I thought I'd highlight it.
Can you vote tactically for Lib Dem or Greens without risking more votes going to the Tories?
- Tactically speaking, you can vote for the party you want to win only if you are absolutely certain that a) the tories have such a strong majority there isn’t a chance of anyone else getting in; b) some other party has such a majority there isn’t a chance of the Tories getting in. Otherwise you vote for the non-Tory party (or party that will not ally with the Tories) that is most likely to make it in your area.
  I still vote tactically because there have historically been some close results where I live, but I’m sick of voting for parties I don’t want to win. I decided to become a member of the political party that I felt I was in most in line with, despite the fact I rarely vote for them. Small gesture, I know.
- @ThePyroPython My email has struck a chord and I've had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I'll see what they have to say and report back.
- @ThePyroPython
  Under FPTP, not in my area, however...
  https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110876506587951106
- Fuck the Lib Dems, even tactically.
  
  Mate, we're under a first past the post system, tactical voting matters to get the most damaging political force, i.e. the Tories, out of power and by a significant majority.
  Anything remotely left of the Tories is better, even if it is Centre Centre Centre calling itself Left Labour.
  
  You students tried that in 2015 and got Megagiga Tory and in 2016 we left the EU. In 2017 and 2019 when the Lib Dems campaigned to stop Brexit and rejoin it was "they took rrrrr students loans!". 🙄
  So yes, fuck them. Oh and whilst we're at it let's also hand power to two parties that will keep us out of the EU because they are scared of their voter base. Good job 👍.
As far as I'm concerned, the worst case scenario (by a very large margin) is another Tory government. I'll be doing everything I can this side of campaigning for Labour (my MP is Labour and he's alright, my local councillors are also Labour and active and all the ball, but I can't bring myself to actual promote a party who's policies I struggle to endorse). So that's mainly sending out tactical voting information and offering lifts to the polling stations.
- @Emperor I agree, Tory is worst. I don't have to let a not good enough Labour think they are good enough.
  Recall I told Labour they lost my vote, that doesn't mean I can't exercise my vote in any way that effectively gets the Tories out, which includes actually voting for Labour.
The Torys thank you for your abstention, and look forward to enacting policies which enrich themselves at your expense.
- @Overzeetop That's another way of accusing me of being a Tory enabler. The point being as I have said elsewhere, is that what I tell labour I will do and what I do, are not their or anyone else's concern.
  In the meantime I can lobby for policy change in any way I see fit, as can anyone else, in a democracy as it currently stands.
  It isn't a simple dichotomy, despite FPTP.
  
  @Overzeetop
  "As far as I can ascertain, Conservatives voters fall into one or more of these categories;"
  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1690002613842886656.html
  
  And I believe you should do everything to lobby for what you feel is correct - and if that's left (or north or south or whatever) of Labor, hell yes. I was, indeed, being hyperbolic. (I also saw your edit :-)
  Agree or disagree, elections are not fractional representations (at least nowhere I'm aware, for national). There is one winner who gets 100% of the say, so try to be pragmatic on the one day you cast your vote. On the rest, give 'em hell.
Same. Their acceptance of current Tory actions like not revoking new oil and gas licenses and child benefit cap. Also watering down their own environmental policy. These things in our current situation are inexcusable.
They pander to Tory voters, bigots, and stay on the side of big business and the media.
The Greens have my vote.
- @snacks
  I think it's important for me as the OP to point out that telling Labour they've lost my vote is as important as my vote.
  If there's a lack of push-back from the left regarding Labour's movement right, then they will assume this is what the voting public want.
  I'm certain there are others that share at least some of my views on this.
  A this late stage, the LibDems or Greens can't make a push to win.
  I also cc'd my local LibDems and Greens in the same email re: a coalition strategy.
  
  Yeah I don't see any point throwing a vote to a party that no longer has any of your interests at heart, if anything it just reinforces their decision if you do that
  
  @snacks My email has struck a chord and I've had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I'll see what they have to say and report back.
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the right, any “more progressive” party that has a chance of getting into power kinda has to play to the crowd. It’ll take time for it to shift back to a more “familiar” (centre) left.
I do feel you on some issues here. Others like Europe I think are well left alone this election after the last election was a one topic vote eventually.
Personally I'll still be voting labour, as things stand, mainly because my MP is an old school labour type and having people like that lose and leave the party doesn't help to shift it leftwards again and also there was only a few thousand in it last time and a neutered version of labour is still preferable to more Tories.
However Starmers leadership has made it feel less like holding my nose to got and more like I need a full hazmat suit.
This is such a Colin post
- @rayquetzalcoatl We are a monolith
Wait, What happened?
UK Labour are too Tory for me.
Absolutely right.
It doesn't matter who you vote for now. I don't think it ever has (except perhaps in 1945). Social change in this country happens outside parliamentary politics. One of the big lies that we've allowed to become accepted is that changes to society happen as a result of MPs debating in parliament. They don't.
Westminster politics is an entertainment used to distract us from taking action .
@ukpolitics https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/what-next-for-british-left-labour-strikes-unions-keir-starmer-jeremy-corbyn/?utmsource=SEGMENT%20-%20Newsletter%3A%20oD%20weekly&utmmedium=email&utmcampaign=Society%20is%20shifting%20leftwards%2C%20but...&kx=95fkBW9xUhcEiUnsEUVx1-FIxpReUd8Ie0w7IyDjZU%3D.YjCYwm

86 comments