Romans didn't kill him his own religion did, with special emphasis that he wasn't their messiah.
Rome specifically washed their hands of the whole incident since he didn't break any standing laws. They imprisoned him for the reason you called out and specifically didn't touch him for the same.
The two reasons I called out were why he was killed. There are even Roman records to the fact.
It kinda feels like you’re pushing an anti-Semitic narrative here instead of trying to argue the history.
The Jewish people were not some minor cult. The story does go that the Jewish authorities did argue for Jesus to be executed, part of it definitely being because of his “king of the Jews” thing. Judaism as a religion and The Jewish people are not 1 and the same in context, Jesus famously was not anti-Roman and argued his teachings were of the mind.
The Romans were famous for incorporating local government structures and religions as long as you paid and served.
Yes according to the myth the Jewish Authorities ( again, integrated and part of the Roman governing of the area) pushed for him to be executed for claiming to be the king of the Jews (political) which would upset Roman rule.
Again, this is of course assuming you believe the myth that actually isn’t written about or recorded at all until a couple generations later.
There aren’t Roman records of the event until later, after the fact. From people who weren’t there, but heard about it from people who were or heard it from folks who were … etc.
Christianity was a minor Jewish cult at the time, and only really expanded due to Greek Egyptians latching onto it prior to Constantine.
The Jews in were major figures in the Roman Provence which is why they were able to kill someone who was troubling them.
I get that this comes off as anti-Jewish but it's really anti-religion. An ingroup killed an outgroup cause it was politically convenient; religion is just one more ingrouping.
As to the lack of contemporary sources you can thank both Constantine and Theodosius. This is why I upvoted your first comment.
I get that this comes off as anti-Jewish but it’s really anti-religion.
This is the problem when your world view is guided by hating a thing. It make you biased and bigoted. Ok so you're bigoted against all religions, but when you talk about a specific religion your logic perfectly aligns with those that are only bigoted against that particular religion.
So does being bigoted towards all religions make you a better person than someone that's bigoted towards only a single religion? You're both using identical rationalizations, does does applying bigoted rationalizations more broadly make you more or less of a bigot?
I simply know my bias. I don't like religion and make no bones about it. I do see some historical value to various religions but this bias also lets me see the cost.
I simply know my bias. I don’t like religion and make no bones about it. I do see some historical value to various religions but this bias also lets me see the cost.
So you admit to being a bigot? That's what bigotry is, having a bias against people and seeing everything through the lens of that bias to perpetually confirm that bias.
They’re being accurate to one take of a mythology which happens to have caste the Jewish people in a bad light for millennia.
There is no record of this story happening past word of mouth.
I could make up an equally plausible story right now for why the competing religious faith would caste the other predominant faith in a bad light but not want to raise the Ire of the governing authority, “Roman’s didn’t do it, it was the other religion?‽!!”
If we do a venn diagram their hatred of the Jewish religion (antisemitism) is completely enclosed within the larger circle of hating all religion. Does drawing a larger circle around the smaller circle fundamentally change the smaller circle?
It's the old "I'm not racist because I hate everyone equally" statement. But somehow I doubt they actually hate all people. Just those that are different from them.
In the end it's splitting hairs. They are promoting the same ideas that are promoted by the antisemitic crowd. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, how much effort should we make debating over whether it's a duck simply because the duck has more enemies than a normal duck?
There are a LOT of very good reasons for someone to hate religion as a whole that have absolutely nothing to do with being antisemitic. And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't hate religion myself, though I can understand why some people do, especially since I'm a member of the lgbt community.
They spoke about a particular religion because that particular religion was the one relevant to the conversation already taking place. You are reaching REALLY hard to try to claim they're being antisemitic here.
A lot of people dislike religion for reasons that are pretty understandable. I'm not anti-religion myself but I can absolutely understand why some people are because like it or not religion has hurt a lot of people because of how often it's been used to abuse and oppress others including other religious groups.
The “it wasn’t the romans it was the Jews” is a long held antisemitic argument.
It’s super easy when someone is trying to push that narrative.
There are no contemporary records of the event ever occurring. It’s a story. How the precision of “nah it was the Jews who did it” comes out seems weird, don’t you think?
The person who is saying it here may not be intending to push the antisemitic narrative but they are just the same pushing the millennia old narrative that casts the Jewish people in a bad light and washes the hands of the “white Roman western authority who otherwise didn’t care”
Historically speaking the narrative they are pushing is an antisemitic one, when you couple the absolute lack of contemporary records of the event (but oh trust me bro it’s just these records were burned so take my FAITH that they existed!)
Again, it’s adding color to a mythological historical event that has no contemporary records of happening. When you insert specifics like that there is reason.
"it wasn't the Romans it was the Jews" is also a fact of the most mainstream versions of Christian/Catholic beliefs. It's also a fact of their beliefs that Jesus himself was Jewish, and I was taught both of those things when growing up in a religious school system without ever being taught to blame or hate Jewish people for it because Jewish people were also regularly victims of oppression in the bible being saved whether by Moses or God himself or others. Someone using it as an example of religious infighting doesn't automatically mean it's being used as an antisemitic argument. Whether you take issue with how that account of events came to exist historically isn't the fault of the other commenter, it is still part of the mythos as most people know it, and the conversation was referring specifically to the mythos. Jesus forgiving his own people and telling god "they know not what they do" is kind of an important aspect of his sacrifice and martyrdom.
These two ideas are arguably very similar. Claiming religious or political standing is both claiming an air of uniqueness and a threat to the status quo, and to my understanding this guy was doing both. ☺️
The argument made is that the Romans saw no threat. The Romans didn’t give a fuck about the religious part. As far as they were concerned he was no threat.
That’s how the story goes at least, a story rewritten over and over by Romans so why would they make themselves look bad?
There is a lot of anti-Semitic history in the retelling of this myth so sometimes it’s hard to understand where people are coming from.
Judaism was not compatible with the polytheistic religions of the time, it specifically had a militaristic bend to it which is part of why they were persecuted and chased off time and again and also fought hard for their land. It was a seed change in ideas, suddenly your god was a problem because this god said no others.
That inherently isn’t bad, human nature and whatnot.
The Roman’s didn’t give a fuck beyond enforcing the local peace and getting their due. Their whole system relied on being pragmatic and open to the local religions.
Who decided that this mythological person needed to be executed is here-say, whether it even happened is here-say.
What is easy to pick out is the push for the narrative to be at the hands of the evil bad guys which is where things get kinda gross.
With no records of the event why are we saying one side did it over the other.
Absolutely not. He was claiming to be the King of the Jews. He was literally claiming political power. He wasn't just saying "hey I'm a super cool religious figure."
i have amended my statement i guess the way i phrased it made a lot of people upset so i apologize, that was definitely not my intent and still not sure why that happened.
would love to hear your thoughts on my edited statement if you have them :)
There's a sort of old Twitter esque, "Everything must be challenged and I've been having this argument with other people for 4 days straight" energy here, yeah.
As someone who didn't use Twitter, I would always get in these weird arguments with my friends that were crazily out of proportion. Then when they would cool down later I would predictably learn they were coming fresh off a Twitter debate where everything everyone says is in bad faith.
It's kinda fun getting that experience now tho, I feel like I missed out a bit!
You refuted what others said, and we aren't obliged to just accept you twisting words and misrepresenting other's statements. Sorry that comes off as toxic to YOU when others found your comment bad in the first place.
People deserve to maintain the character and context of their comments, and you don't deserve to high horse once you wade in. You chose to mince words, and people disagreed with you. Thats not toxic, that's adults disagreeing.
i made a little tumblr-core joke assocating two concepts in response to a tumblr post and you are accusing me of these huge things like mincing words and refutation
absolutely hilarious, by all means continue being upset it’s entertaining
And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything.
-- Douglas Adams, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
(Immediately after she realized it, the Earth gets destroyed.)
I just re-read it as a (middle age :S) adult -- and while it's hardly an underrated book, it's fucking amazing and not sufficiently appreciated beyond being a fantastically fun book for a teenage brain to read. Whoever hasn't read it since they were in high school or hasn't read it, really should pick it up.
I've re-read it many times, along with re-listening to the radio series, the LPs, re-watching the TV series, I can even appreciate the feature film, despite it being the least of the versions. I dearly love Douglas Adams.
The only thing I haven't done in many, many years is play the INFOCOM game. Too devious.
let's maybe not push the propagandic idea that humans are inherently bad, humans are in fact inherently extremely friendly (to a fault) and the idea that the opposite is true is part of what's needed to restrain our inherent need to help others.
Any time a group of humans is placed in a difficult position they start working together, there's that famous example of a group of kids accidentally ending up basically recreating Lord of the flies except they just got along and eventually had pretty comfortable lives, because as it turns out working together makes things way easier!
Humans mostly help each other. Governments do not like challenges to their authority. Jesus was killed because of the challenge he represented to the Pharisees. Ultimately Rome killed him, but at the demand of the Pharisees and an unruly mob that had been whipped into a frenzy.