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C is okay but why are we not allowed to put the safety on and safely remove all of the ammunition?
The general risk assessment is that medical personal don't know as much about firearms as Law enforcement - and LEOs don't know much. And you generally have other things to do that are more important than causing a negligent discharge in the ER.
Beside, do you really want to trust the Triage Nurse with a loaded firearm?
Triage is going to be a bit quicker today.
He's dead Jim.
At the least, someone might be getting to the head of the line quickly............
I don't trust leaving it behind a desk counter or in a cabinet with bullets in it, personally, I feel like that's the more dangerous option.
IF you run across a firearm on a patient, (which is really isn't a common thing), it gets placed in a lockbox and then locked into a "safe room". Chances are good there be a cop there in a short order anyway due to the patient having been shot by a gun.
It's good that most hospitals have a system in place to handle the situation.
I honestly didn't know that, I tend not to live my life in a way that would preclude me being shot or being around folks who will shoot someone. Thanks for the info! :)
The overwhelming number of tend to live like you also. It's a just a few of us that make a choice to have to deal with such less than savory people.
Gun safety courses actually discuss (at length, at least in my state) about how even if you've just got the gun on your desk next to you, but it's loaded, it needs to be pointed in a safe direction. Even doing dry fire exercises (practicing, say, holstering/unholstering with the gun unloaded and the magazine removed entirely), you're supposed to point the gun down at where the floor meets the wall to minimize any chance of anyone being hurt by an accident discharge.
Basically, you're supposed to follow the same rules as if the gun was loaded and you're holding it: don't point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy, and know both what it is pointed at and what lies beyond that.
I personally wouldn't want a doctor on their 23rd hour of work to try to unload a firearm in a crowded and hectic ER, and don't have the answer to how to handle this situation, but I'm not a medical professional so...
I'm confident that, maybe with 5min instructional time from a gun guy (or gal, women are the fastest growing group of gun owners today), anyone with a phd could be taught "push button, remove mag, rack slide" and "push button, swing cylinder, push ejector rod out."
They really aren't as hard to learn to use safely as Alec Baldwin would have you believe. Shooting accurately is another matter but simply being safe is as easy as learning 4 rules and a basic knowledge of how common firearms function.
Edit: here, I'll link a video where
for three easy payments of $29.99in one whole minute and 38 seconds you too can learn how to clear semi auto handguns (the most common type of gun by a mile) safely like a pro!You see how easy this is? A surgeon should be competent enough to learn how to do this.
It's harder to learn for many people than you might think. There are 1000's of different kinds of types and models many with subtle differences from one another from one year to the next. Nor do you know just how mechanically sound that gangbanger's gun is either - what parts might be broken, missing, or badly modified.
It's probably not worth the risk when you can just place it in a lockbox and call the cops to deal with it.
Sure there's 1000s of diff types but he doesn't have a vickers or an mg-42 stuffed down his joggers, he has one of the many revolvers or semi autos that all function the same way. Probably could narrow it down even further, it's likely either a glock (26, 43, 45, 19, 19x, or 17), a sig (p320 or p365), a S&W (m&p or sd9ve), a Ruger (mkIII or IV, lcp9), a taurus (lol gross), or a hi-point (also lol) or any crappy .22lr revolver. For 99.9% of guns you encounter (unless your friend is a collector,) they're all going to function similarly enough to at least get it cleared.
As to broken or badly modified, typically it can still be cleared, I've never seen a gun so badly broken that dropping the mag or racking the slide fires it. In theory, sure, but that's why you're following all the rules of gun safety and pointing it in a safe direction (at something that'll catch the bullet if all goes wrong.)
I've seen literal children learn how, if they can I hope a surgeon can.
Or just put it in a lockbox
If they have one, but it's still safer to put an unloaded gun in an anything.
You have no clue about medical liability do you.
Well medical accidents kill more people per year in the US than guns, including suicide and accidents. Oddly enough.
(Frankly though if a gang member is shot, he was probably brought in by paramedics, and therefore before they were able to administer care the police secured the scene, so he was probably cuffed to the stretcher, already searched, and accompanied by two or more cops, and this question is frankly silly to begin with.)
I was a medic for 15 years. Ain't no one EVER going to cuff a patient to a cot. We can't even transport a cuffed patient. Hard restrains are illegal for us to use. And no cop is ever going to ride in the back of an ambulance. They will follow in a squad car, but they won't ride with. And maybe the police secured the scene, maybe they didn't. Maybe they had time to search the patient, maybe they didn't. It's not always picture perfect. And yes, medical mistakes kill more people. But, the job is to prevent killing more people due to missed or lacking protocols. So we do what we can to prevent even one.
And no, this isn't a silly discussion. We do indeed need to have protocols in place involving weapons because it is a real thing and we discuss scenarios where this happens. And while I never had to remove a firearm myself, I have relieved more than one patient of knives, brass knuckles, tears gas, and one leather sap while doing my assessment. And it happened enough we equipped every ambulance with a lock box to secure them. When I retired, they were considering get kevlar vests for the us. Not so much because of guns, but knives. While not a perfect solution it did offer some small protection. At least a bit more than just a jump bag does. We could even take special self defense seminars on how to protect yourself in the confines of the ambulance, and do so without leaving a mark on a patient - it's considered VERY bad form to beat up your patient. And it was an odd month were you didn't get assaulted at least once. I think I averaged about 3 a month or so. Things often be whack after midnight yo.
Fine, "strapped" not "cuffed," and cops have their own cars, they'd ride those probably in close proximity to your ambulance, thus arriving at a similar enough time to constitute use of the word "accompanied," which was originally used in the context of "after you drop them off at the hospital where the surgeon from OP's question works." So, are they strapped to the gurney, followed by police in the ambulance, then the police accompany them into the building and hospital room? If yes: "Close enough, sorry I used the wrong word for the restraints."
They aren't just gonna hand you a fresh murder suspect and say "can you drop him at our place on Tuesday," he's restrained somehow and accompanied by someone, unless your area's emergency services works differently than my area, and every area I'm aware of, from the ground up.
So anyway, you're a medical professional of sorts, you ever fire a gun? Do you have any idea how easy it is to learn how to handle them properly?
(Btw they've rolled out the vests, my buddy is a paramedic and he has em. Only good up to .357 and not stab proof afaik, but it's something!)
You very, very, seldom ever restrain a patient's arms because you need to have access to them for vitals and possible IV access - which is why they can't be handcuffed. The straps go under the arms and across the chest, and legs. And a cop in a squad car trailing behind the ambulance is of small comfort when you are getting assaulted. It takes a good minute plus for everyone to stop and the cop to get into the ambulance. Been there, done that, got some bruises, scratches and cuts on a few occasions. But no tee shirt. Just imagine how many times you could get stabbed in that minute. Nor do all patients come in via ambulances. More than one trauma patient just shows up unannounced in the ER Bay garage.
I own firearms. And I can and have made repair parts for modern and antique weapons from scratch - springs, screws, firing pins, and other such small parts that many people find unobtainable. I most likely understand them better than you do. I apparently understand them well enough to know what you do not - that it's very easy to think you know something about them without understanding how much you do not know.
I used to shoot in trap leagues when I was younger, firing around 10,000 to 15,000 rounds a year. But I was never talented enough to hit the national shooting stage. I also used to do black powder shooting matches. I did travel to Friendship to compete once long ago. So I might have fired a gun or two over my life. I still hunt to this day, enjoying upland hunting with my dogs and fine fall days in the field with them.
Sure so they're strapped, but that doesn't count as restrained even though they are restrained. What happens after the ambulance, where the surgeon is? Does the cop accompany them into the hospital, where they continue to be
restrainedstrapped and accompanied by police, either in or just outside the OR? There many surgeries taking place in the back of your ambulance?I have similar experience with firearms, though my expertise is new not antique. One thing I do know is how absolutely easy it is to clear one. Frankly it sounds like to do that you'd have to wrestle it away from them with your black eyes and stabbings, so in your case it may be a bad idea. However, in the context of the original post where the gun is found and presumed to be picked up by a surgeon, where it doesn't have to be fought for, it is quite simple to clear them by dropping the mag and racking the slide while pointing it in a safe direction. Safer than throwing a chambered gun in a lock box, tbh, unless your box is bulletproof I guess. You find a lot of benellis or enfeild 1853s stuffed down gang members pants or are they mostly hi-point c9s and taurus g2cs? Do you have experience with modern semi auto firearms at all, or are you one of those elite gun club british types who has never touched a semi auto or a detachable box magazine? You should know how easy it is if you have as much experience as you say, but you don't seem to. Like sure if you've never even seen a gun before it may be a bad idea, but that was why I said "learn." See, "learning" a thing beforehand means that you'll be familiar with it when you have to do it, sort of like how they "learned" to do the "surgery," it's just not as hard to learn how to press a button and pull a slide back (or cylinder out, button either way.) Ain't no damn tube feds, belt feds, etc, in a hospital, not even a charging handle in sight (pun intended), it's easy whether you want to accept that or not. Hell it's usually why you brits think they should be banned "they're too easy," yeah well are they so easy a kid can use em to shoot up a school or so difficult a surgeon can't wrap their head around the maddening complexities? Which one? Are our kids just that bright and using all their talents on the wrong thing?
You would think that. But the number of trained soldiers who have been punished for a negligent discharge while clearing their weapon would say otherwise. Also, you have to assume everyone employed at that ER is at the end of a 48 hour double shift where every attempt to sleep was interrupted less than an hour later.
Idk man I can't sit here and claim to be so ridiculously intelligent I can learn how to cycle a firearm faster than a literal surgeon. I mean, when I learned I was a pizza delivery man. I may have a different job now, but if a pizza man can learn it I'd hope a surgeon could pick it up pretty quick, "it isn't brain surgery."
The learning isn't the problem. The exhaustion is. If people who are highly trained with firearms cannot reliably clear them while exhausted then nobody can. And the medical industry insists on seriously overworking staff.
If you're too exhausted to clear a gun, you're too exhausted to surgery me. Let the doc go home.
That's not how capitalism works.
"Hey boss I'm tired as shit, on hour 9 of my shift. I gotta take off, before I cost us a shitload of money in a malpractice suit because I fell asleep in Mr. Wallace's chest cavity."
All about how you frame it.
"If you leave you're fired. If you get sued it's on you and your malpractice insurance. I got five more residents who would knife each other for your job because they're working even worse hours. I don't care how you get it done, just get it done."
Yes doctors have left practice because of this, yes we do have an addiction problem in the medical field, yes the for-profit system has no interest in reforming this unless the system just starts to fail entirely. Because the way it's setup is more profitable for them.
To the point of the thread. The world is what it is and it's far safer for the protocol to be gently placing the gun in a bin with a locked cover. When the world changes then we can talk about training on a higher level than failsafe.
Yeah I'd rather leave than kill a guy, perhaps I'll one day find a place that practices medicine safely.
Also, still not a fan of this idea as a customer. I'd rather not die because my doctor is tired or tweaking.
Regardless of guns or no guns, having doctors too tired to reliably not kill people is itself an unsafe practice, at this point "the guns" aren't the issue, "exhaustion" is. Protocol is focusing on the wrong thing.
You're a great example why there should be more gun laws. That is probably the most dangerous reply I've ever heard.
I've literally seen children learn, have more faith in your surgeons, I guess.
Consider that the gun may be part of the crime scene. The more people interact with it, the less useful it is as evidence.
While true, I'd rather the gun actually be made safe, didn't wear my plate carrier to work today lol.
"Sorry cops, my life is more important to me, if you need prints get them off the guy's fingers who's pants I just pulled this out of, it isn't really a question of who had it, it was him."
Who cares? It's an immediate threat if untouched, and the gangster's clothes are already covered in gunpowder.
Medical staff arn't trained with guns and they figure there's less possibility of an accidental discharge the less people are touching it
Oh I apologize, I kind of saw through the lense of an American so I assumed basic firearm knowledge. We have 15 guns per person so there really is no excuse not to know over here. With that in mind the possibility of discharge goes down because a gun with no ammo does not discharge.
We have 15 guns per person
And this is why statistics classes are important. Only 30% of US adults own guns. So at 15 guns per person, that means most of those people own a fuckton of guns. I'd hazard a guess to say most of those people are not in the medical field.
Most American adults do not own a gun, probably have never fired a gun, and their only training is from video games.
Also, a good handful of the people who DO own a weapon, have no training in the weapon and don't know how to use or handle one safely.
Regardless of owning a gun: when they're so commonplace then you should learn the basics, it could save a life someday knowing about the safety, magazine, chamber, and about never pointing a gun, loaded or otherwise, at anything that you don't intend to destroy.
Amassing guns does not mean amassing knowledge and training on how to properly use them. On a side note, the actual number is more like 1.2 guns per civilian, which is (terrifyingly) impressive.
Even if that number wouldn't be a simple average, it still doesn't mean each civilian has received proper training or is even fit for handling a gun, even though 72% have apparently at least once fired a gun in their lifetime - though that can literally mean they onced pulled the trigger on a hunting trip with dad at age 7, with him holding the gun.
Honestly, let me speak as an American as well: People shouldn't be handling guns at all.
Sources: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
You probably meant to link to this rather than the SAS homepage: LINK
Also, by that estimate, there are less registered firearms than total US Soldiers in the military...
This explicitly estimates civilian gun ownership.
So then what was the point of using that as an argument against my estimate if it was an intentionally incomplete dataset?
I understand but we've all seen the video of buff 'locs shot himself while giving a gun safety course to students. No need to get poor Mary, the nurse who has been on shift for 14 hours because the hospital refuses to staff properly, any extra duties that she hasn't been explicitly trained for.
The prompt outlines that a physician has the gun. IN THEIR HANDS. Every possible answer has the same concern that you just outlined, we've crossed that line a while back.
It doesn't say that. I'm feeling that you aren't arguing in good faith.
You think you can do any of the given responses without touching the gun?
I'm done with your obviously stupid questions. Have a great life. Didn't waste your time replying I'm blocking you to save both of us time.
That guy was a moron.
Couple reasons.
One: do you know anything about that model of firearm? Does it have a safety? Can it slam-fire if handled improperly?
Two: Is there important information that can be conveyed by the present condition of the firearm. Was it a shooting or an accident. Would clearing the firearm remove important information that can be used to ascertain what happened?
Three: Preserving the firearm can preserve evidence. While that is not necessarily part of the duty of medical staff, there's no reason to risk destroying evidence if the firearm can be safely isolated with minimal disturbance.
Four: Why do it? An isolated, secure gun isn't going to decide to start blasting people on its own. What advantage is there to handling the gun more than is necessary in that situation? Get it out of the way and keep working.
You're already assumed to be handling the gun from the onset. Most handguns are pretty standard if they're from this century. The physician is likely wearing gloves and the conviction isn't as important as everybody's immediate safety. The gun isn't in an isolated secure place, this is a physician's office.
Performing outside of your scope of practice is the fastest way to a lawsuit and loss of your license. I don't want to go to the station and fill out a bunch of forms. I have enough to fill out in the hospital already.
I'll stay in my lane thank you very much. Like everything else that is on the patient, whether it's clothes, phone, drugs, weapons, money, whatever, I will hand it to a nurse to put in a bag and lock it away for the gun shooty people to take care of while I do my job. It'll all be on camera and nobody can blame me for tampering with anything.
So if you were studying to be a physician and you were given this test question you would refuse to answer it?
Permanently Deleted
So then you're already handling a loaded weapon and your previous statement was in denial. Stay in your lane.
🙄
Most modern handguns do not have a (manually operated) safety.
"A" is the answer closest to "remove all of the ammunition".
by firing it which is stupid.
That's "B".
Ah yeah mb, just feels like A didn't give much of a complete answer.