1y ago

braces for down votes and possible ban

I've been seeing a worrying number of these people on Lemmy lately, sharing enlightened takes including but not limited to "voting for Biden is tantamount to fascism" and "the concept of an assigned gender, or even an assigned name, at birth is transphobic" and none of them seem to be interested in reading more than the first sentence of any of my comments before writing a reply.

More often than not they reply with a concern I addressed in the comment they're replying to, without any explanation of why my argument was invalid. Some of them cannot even state their own position, instead simply repeatedly calling mine oppressive in some way.

It occurred to me just now that these interactions reminded me of nothing so much as an evangelical Christian I got into an argument with on Matrix a while ago, in which I met him 95% of the way, conceded that God might well be real and that being trans was sinful and tried to convince him not to tell that to every trans person he passed, and failed. I am 100% convinced he was trolling -- in retrospect I'm pretty sure I could've built a municipal transport system by letting people ride on top of his goalposts (that's what I get for picking a fight with a Christian at 2AM) -- and the only reason I'm not convinced these leftists on Lemmy are trolls is the sheer fucking number of them.

I made this post and what felt like half the responses fell into this category. Am I going insane?

107 comments

Generally true, yes. In most cases, the leftists using that sort of terminology are tankies, meaning they are explicitly pro-authoritarian. They just want the dictators to be communists (or claimed communists) rather than capitalists (despite said dictatorial communism usually being about seizing all the money for themselves anyways and often results in full on capitalism regardless, China is a great example).
So you don't even need the word replacement thought experiment. Tankies are openly authoritarian.
- People really don't want to acknowledge that politics is more than one axis.
  Like communism is the opposite of capitalism, not democracy. The opposite of democracy is a dictatorship.
  And when a dictator calls their government Communist, it's pretty much a guarantee it's not even a communist economy anymore than when North Korea or Russia claim to be democracies.
  
  Very true. Reading a lot of Socialist lit has made me very critical about the regular framework I see regularly posited as Socialism being a direct opposite of capitalism and being some kind of inevitable slippery slope toward Communism.
  Like as a system it is very distinct from Communist ideologically speaking and represents a sliding scale of public ownership versus private ownership but never fully occludes private ownership, currency or the very basics of capitalism systemically and any one person's veiw of where that balance should rest is itself an end point and fully formed political belief. You can believe a mix of liberal / capitalist and socialist things that are not strictly contradictory. Capitalism is a sliding scale we are just currently dealing with it's deep unstable and predatory end. Admitting some capitalism is okay and can be made more ethical doesn't disqualify you from the left nor does it nessisarily make you "centrist". It also doesn't make you automatically a fan of everything capitalist or the status quo.
  The number of "That's not Socialism! Socialism means only (posit one potential facet out of the massive cloud of policies/stances of the ideology) or " That is only the secret aim of Communists to tip the teeter-totter towards our/their goals!" is a very paternalistic view. Socialism is DEEP and diverse. There's not a central author or even a neat handful of authors one can point to. The more you read the more internal variations you find.
  People generally seem to just want an enemy to point and hiss at, they don't want to look at things as a potential series of sliding scales or people of mixed ideological stances as valid in their own right.
I have a friend who has come to reflect this exact behavior to an extraordinary degree of accuracy.
It's interesting because the near puritanical nature of their responses to nearly anything has become more extreme than even the most devoutly religions individuals. Obviously the focus of their evangelizing is very different, but it has become difficult to even have a conversation.
I'll give you an example: I saw a new game called Pal World, which looked absurd, mentioned and was instantly met with the fact that the game was unacceptable because it supports forced labor.
Additionally, there seems to be an immense amount of hypocrisy in regards to what is good and what is bad, largely driven by what best I can refer to as their "leftist Zeitgeist." As bad as I can tell now, according to them, I am a liberal, and apparently liberals are bad, and the only true salvation is being a leftist?
Of course, I have a much more varied and complex set of moral and political values that likely don't fall under a singular label... But what do I know about anything.
- This is kind of like saying Helldivers 2 is bad because it's about forcefully spreading "democracy" (pretty obviously it means capitalism) to other planets.
  Yeah, it is, but it's hugely satirical and makes blatant political statements through satire.
  Pal World isn't that deep, I don't think there's much depth to their forced labor system other than parodying Pokémon and slightly highlighting how the Pokémon universe is full of forced labor and isn't that kind of funny
- was instantly met with the fact that the game was unacceptable because it supports forced labor.
  If this is true, it should be constantly called out. You're shrugging at slavery?
  Edit: I don't play or care about this game. Obviously I don't give two shits if creatures are slaves in video games as long as there's nothing about it that makes it seem like a good idea for sentient creatures
  
  Wait until you hear about cookie clicker.
  
  Fiction is fiction. This is the same kind of logic that adults used when I was a kid because Harry Potter promoted witchcraft, or when the country had a moral panic because Call of Duty had their children killing people. Nothing in the game literally advocates for or glorifies IRL slavery, that would be absurd.
  If you can't parse fiction from reality, then you aren't fit for just about anything. Movies, music, video games, books, etc. Every medium frequently depicts things you shouldn't emulate. Even the literal Bible has depictions of slavery, rape, incest, and murder.
  
  If you consider the game slavery to make monsters work for you, then I guess. Problem is that covers a huge amount of games beyond palworld.
- As bad as I can tell now, according to them, I am a liberal, and apparently liberals are bad, and the only true salvation is being a leftist?
  Watch it before you rage downvote...
  The Most Dangerous Thing In The Western Hemisphere: American Liberals
  https://youtu.be/33p-8QHZpzY
  
  That's a no from me. I don't need some jerk on youtube to know that liberals aren't the "most dangerous blah blah blah." It's the same rhetoric the right has been spouting for years. So just go piss off with your hyperbolic BS.
Marxism and Christianity only share the fact that they contain frameworks for analyzing material reality(Marxism through Materialism and Christianity through representing reality as though it is divine, and thus explainable via the divine), and this post seems to not be willing to honestly engage with Marxism as a concept.
Marxists do not oppose incremental change. Marxists believe that minor concessions under Capitalism are insufficient to actually fix the underlying problems, and this point of view is built on a thorough understanding of the Marxist critique of Capitalism.
Marxists do not oppose reform, they just believe it is impossible to do successfully without sliding backward, because the state is built in a manner that supports Capitalism and resists change.
Marxism is an economic critique of Capitalism, a philosophical framework, and a call to action. It is a complete set of tools to look at the world, analyze it, and how to fix it. In this manner, it can be superficially compared to Christianity, but only on the surface.
That's really it.
- So Marxists are not opposed to incremental change, except they actually are. And Marxists are not opposed to reform except they consider it impossible.
  What in the Ministry of Truth?
  
  Marxists are not opposed to incremental change. They do not believe incremental change is a bad thing, and do not move against it. Incremental change is a nice-to-have, when revolutionary change is seen as necessary.
  Marxists are not opposed to reform. If it is shown to be legitimately possible to reform a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, ie a Capitalist State, into a Socialist one, Marxists would be first in line. However, history has shown this to be extraordinarily difficult to outright impossible, akin to politely asking a bear to stop mauling you, so Marxists seek other methods. Marxists are Materialists, not Idealists.
  Hope that helps!
Outside of the word "capitalist," literally nothing presented in the top half of the image is even political, let alone authoritarian 🙄 it kinda seems like you're just using popular negative words against things you dislike.
- "Any attempt at actual progress makes you a liberal" isn't political? "I have a right to tell you what media you should watch" isn't political?
  What are you talking about?
  
  You know, "Any attempt to make actual progress makes you a lukewarm Christian" is kind of a weird and ambiguous statement and seems like someone was working backwards from the starting point of being anti-leftist.
  Related: one glaring thing of note is anti-leftist sentiment routinely conflates liberal and leftist together.
The biggest two lemmy servers are militant authoritarian fascists, so I'm surprised you're only seeing it now
Hexbears, already filtered, don't bother
“voting for Biden is tantamount to fascism”
I've been hearing substantial amounts of "If you're not voting for Biden then you're implicitly endorsing Fascism". Perhaps this is just reflexive push-back?
“the concept of an assigned gender, or even an assigned name, at birth is transphobic”
If you've ever actually dealt with babies before - with one particular anatomical difference that makes changing a diaper more exciting - there's not much about them that screams "gender" until parents make a big show of color-coding. And there's definitely a lot of goofy phrenology-tier bullshit that goes into "Blue is For Boys and Pink is for Girls".
There's definitely a degree of transphobia that goes into people who are insecure about their boy baby wearing girl colors. And I've seen quite a few dime-story psychiatrists insist that infants can be "turned" gay based on insufficiently gendered living spaces or treatments. The most consistently crazy claim I've seen is that when male babies are breast fed for too long, they become "sissified", which can range from becoming cis-homo to trans-hetero depending on who you ask.
It occurred to me just now that these interactions reminded me of nothing so much as an evangelical Christian
Well, let's maybe take a step back and first ask which one of these people are endorsing the bombing of an abortion clinic.
- Oh my god. Tumblr's reading comprehension is better than this.
  I'm not saying your political opinions are the same as those of the right. I'm saying you use the same bad faith tactics that they do to spread them.
  Namely, you both believe that nothing short of perfection on the first go is worth pursuing, and anyone who dares to pursue it is at best wasting their efforts and at worst a traitor to the cause.
  
  I love calling a genocide "short of perfection".
  It's brilliant.
Stop trying to divide the working class against itself.
We are all working class.
- And here I'm the one who keeps getting banned from .ml for not worshipping Stalin hard enough.
- If you're fighting against reform and shill for China and Russia then you're acting against all of our own best interests, don't get mad when people retaliate over your bullshit.
- I am being called a fascist for voting for a left of center politician who is not far enough left of center, and I am the one dividing the working class?
  
  Ten years Biden would have been called conservative.
  The only reason he's not now is because of how batshit insane Republicans are now.
  
  I am being called a fascist for voting for a left of center politician
- This^
  The more we infight the more time the billionaires have
Look. A lot of people are sick of what looks an awful lot like bullshit. We've seen what liberal politics gets us. We see that the victories of the past were won in spite of liberal moderates, rather than with their cooperation. If you find more people taking hard line stances, maybe it is self defense against being dragged into mealy mouthed excuses about why we have to vote for leaders who support genocides.
- We've seen what liberal politics gets us:
  Fighting to Slow and Reverse the Effects of Climate Change
  Free Libraries
  Free or Cheap Public Transit
  Free Schooling
  Free Daycare
  Free Medical Care
  Paid Sick Leave
  Paid Maternal Leave
  Border Policies That Accept Good People and More Effectively Removes The Bad
  Protections for Human Rights
  Separation of Church and State
  Right to Love Whoever You Want to Love
  Reluctance to Enter Foreign Wars
  Better Economies
  Lower Deficits
  Free Care for Chronic Mental Illnesses
  But sure, BoTh sIdES baD, Vi JinPeeng the Pooh can save us! RusSiA iS wInnING thE WAr aGaInST wHiTE SuPReMaCIsT aNtI-cHrIStianS
  
  Are you kidding? Almost none of these points are true. We have almost none of these points besides libraries which are constantly being refunded, and schools that are all but useless.
  We are doing nothing more than a token effort to fight the climate collapse, no such thing as free daycare, there is not free medical care, paid maternal leave is laughably short, and so on.
Don't worry about getting banned. You didn't post on the .ml instances after all! ;)
Seriously though, you're not crazy. My advice is to not get emotionally invested in any of those types of interactions. If they're being too stupid for you, just block them. You're mental wellbeing will thank you for it.
- In the long run, blocking them just cedes the floor to them.
The difference is that revolutions HAVE happened throughout history, and have been successful.
Comparing a political act that has historical precedent to a bible story with no basis in fact is probably the most flaccid “both sides” centrist argument I’ve ever heard.
- So how long does it take to go from "overthrowing the new warlords" and "we have to stay this way because this is the way it is"?
  Like I know you didn't mean to, but you just made a pretty good argument why a revolution isn't inherently a bad thing: it's replacing warlords.
  Be a use even if you're right, and every single prior revolution has resulted in warlords gaining power...
  That doesn't mean the next one will too. And the alternative is living under a system that's inherently corrupt and was created by warlords whose main desire would be maintaining power and preventing change at all costs.
  Like, you can say you don't want to try, but why try to talk others out of the chance to make things better for everyone including yourself?
  Why shit on people who want to make the world better just because they care to even talk about trying?
It's of course possible to just be opposed to the meat grinder that is modern society without requiring me to be some kind of revolutionary?
And I would raise the argument that the vast majority of "leftists" are like that and are not actually revolutionary because most people can't be bothered to be revolutionary. It's hard work and even if you succeed, then you have to do more work.
I'm quite happy for a government to exist, I just want it to be a good one. I'm not even asking for a Star Trek utopia, just not actively evil. That'll do for now.
- It’s of course possible to just be opposed to the meat grinder that is modern society without requiring me to be some kind of revolutionary?
  Sure. But people who support the meat grinder will call you one anyway.
  
  Yeah sure but this comment seems to be from the opinion of other "leftists. Although it is actually probably from the perspective of someone who is actually centralist and have just have convinced themselves that they have a political opinion. That way they can look down on everyone and feel smug.
  The right are evil, and the left are apparently religious nut jobs. Yay balance.
Wild to me that people actually think liberal democracy isn't authoritarian, it is literally the dictatorship of the bourgiosie
- .ml domains always have the goofiest takes.
  
  The owning class gets what they want while the working class seldom does.
  You see how flat that line is? The percentage of the public that wants something has very very little effect on policy
  The owning class (bourgiosie) has the authority to hand down dictates that the working class (proletariat) must abide by despite have essentially no influence on the nature of those dictates.
  source
  related study
- Nah, I agree with the original point. Liberal Democracy is only one form of Democracy, and is particularly good at resisting popular change and supporting whoever has the money to lobby. You can see in the US, for example, even presidents who win the popular vote, lose!
  More direct democratic forms, whether that be direct democracy, participatory economics, parlimentary democracy, industrial democracy, and so forth are all more accountable to the people and capable of positive change that the public desires.
  Despite being overwhelmingly popular, the US does not have: Legalized Marijuana, Medicare for All, Student Loan Forgiveness (outside loophole forgiveness), Enshrined Abortion Protection, and more.
  Read up on the types of democracy here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy

107 comments