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what's the fake money for criminals
Cryptocurrency
that's not fake money, and it isn't "for" criminals. it's real, and that's why criminals use it.
They only "use it" to transfer the funds. Once they have it, they cash it in. No criminal is keeping it in crypto form. They use it the same way they use Apple gift cards.
tally sticks were debt tokens. people used them as money out of convenience, and would exchange them for cash if it was possible.
An easy way to tell if it's "real" money or not is to see if goods are ever priced directly in it, where it isn't just directly indexed to the exchange rate of an established currency.
Hint: Even places that accept crypto payments don't do this. The crypto price fluctuates based on the moment by moment exchange rate to the local currency.
So latin American currencies are not real money. We already knew but wow harsh reality
tally sticks denoted debt in Britain, and were used directly as money out of convenience, but they were themselves denoted in roman currency iirc.
Can I ask what the point of arguing semantics here is?
Maybe you have put in the effort to figure out all the avenues to use bitcoin to pay for things, but its not easy and you sound more like a drug addict scrounging for metal and bottles, and then wondering why noone else is interested in your hustle.
Why do you care if people call bitcoin real or not anyways? For most people its not real, for you I guess it is, does that make sense?
if someone is making a semantic argument it's those who won't accept that Bitcoin is money as surely as any other form of money we have ever used.
What's the difference between something having monetary value and it being currency then?
I dont see the difference between the bitcoin I could buy drugs with online, and the ps2 I trade my weed dealer 15 years ago for drugs.
I dont understand what greater point there is to be had here besides, "well technically anything is currency".
there probably is no such thing as fake money except counterfeit money.
sumerians denoted everything in silver shekels but trade was done will all manner of commodities, including barley grains. your theory of money sounds like it comes from the Adam Smith cult.
Are barley grains a currency? I'm not understanding your argument here. In a practical sense, cryptocurrencies are far too volatile to use as a currency and the "stable" coins are tied to things like the US dollar. Well, I should say allegedly tied because "stable" coins like tether haven't been audited to actually prove it's tied to the underlying.
barley grains have been used as currency, yes.
Are they a currency now? Why or why not?
I am not in touch with every living culture but my guess is that they are not. at least, I don't know of any current cultures using barley grains.
All money is fake, it's legitimately just made up.
Gold coins?
Very true, they are called promissary notes for a reason.
OMG Such edge
How is that edgy? It's a fact.
Everyone knows how money has no intrinsic value. What does pointing that out add to anything?
Just to contrast somewhat the saying that crypto is "fake" Edit: grammar
Crypto is fake because it's a Ponzi scheme, not because it's fiat currency
In order for someone to cash out and make money some new idiot has to buy in, or a bigger idiot has to buy them out
it's all made up but the only fake money I can imagine is counterfeit.
Money refers to some token which is commonly accepted as a form of payment for goods and services and for the repayment of debts. In some contexts - dark web marketplaces, for example - certain cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin and Monero are money. In the context of the physical world, generally cryptocurrency isn’t considered to be money, but rather a security - a tradable financial asset, but not a form of directly usable money - the asset has to be exchanged for e.g. USD to be spent.
In this way, cryptocurrency is a bit like WoW gold. I can’t pay for my rent with it, and I can’t really buy any physical property with it, so it’s not money in that context, but in Azeroth, it’s money. I might be able to exchange my digital asset for real money or physical assets, but only in black markets.
Hope this helps
I mean, the same can be said for Norwegian Kroner (assuming you're not in Norway) and nobody doubts that it is money. I can't pay my rent with it, or buy bread with it, I need to exchange it for "real money" (Euro for me) but it is real money.
Yeah, that’s what I was trying to explain - NOK is money, but only in Norwegian contexts. Runescape gold is money in a Runescape context. Bitcoin is money in the context of dark web marketplaces. The more contexts that some asset is considered to be money, the more widely recognised that asset is as a “real” money. If cryptocurrency becomes more commonly accepted as a medium of exchange, then it will more broadly be recognised as money. But as it stands, for most people in most contexts, cryptocurrencies are not money. I hope that makes sense!
I can’t pay for my rent with it
Many landlords accept USDC
and I can’t really buy any physical property with it
https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/miami-beach-home-most-expensive-bought-cryptocurrency
Dude, if it’s newsworthy then it’s not a common occurrence. And no, many landlords do not accept crypto lol.
You previously said buying property can't be done. Now you've shifted to "not common".
https://www.muralpay.com/blog/how-to-use-stablecoins-in-your-daily-life
How to use Stablecoins to Pay Rent While direct payment of rent in digital dollars might not be mainstream yet, Rent.App allows its users to pay their rent in USDC or USDT with no fees. By creating or connecting your digital dollars wallet on their website, you can input your landlord’s email and the amount you wish to send them for your rent. However, your landlord will need to create or connect their wallet to the platform to receive the money.
Now you’ve shifted to “not common”.
The opening line of my comment literally reads:
Money refers to some token which is commonly accepted as a form of payment
You literally wrote
I can’t pay for my rent with it, and I can’t really buy any physical property with it.
This is false
Permanently Deleted
I can’t pay for my rent with it.
I linked to an app service created specifically to pay rent with crypto.
And I can’t really buy any physical property with it.
You can really buy physical property with crypto. I gave you examples.
Just because someone somewhere did do that, it doesn’t mean I can.
Yes you can. All you need is the crypto.
I don’t have any cryptocurrency so I can’t actually buy anything with it.
What?
I don't have any Japanese Yen so I can’t actually buy anything with it. Therefore Japanese Yen is useless?!?
No
Checkmate.
OK. I'm playing chess with a pigeon.
me too
Go throw crypto at a stripper then!
they probably don't accept tally sticks or turquoise as payment either. were those fake money too?
If you're "invested" in cryptogoboligook and you're not ripping someone off--guess what?--you're the mark.
Regardless, you can generally use money to buy things.
You can't buy anything with crypto because it's 15 years later, and "mass adoption" is never happening. It's "fake money".
since people treat crypto as money, it is money.
People certainly don't treat crypto like money.
And I suppose that's where our conversation has to stop because you've now outed yourself as willing to say any outlandish thing to support crypto.
Because I do not believe you can actually think that.
I am not defending crypto. I'm correcting people who don't know what money is
The only ones that treat it as money are in on it. Otherwise, you could go to a Best Buy and get a TV with your crypto-card.
I hate to be “that guy” but your definition of money is a little constrained. By that definition, the only “money” is the money of the country you’re currently in. Can you walk into a bestbuy and purchase a TV with Yuan?
You’re likely trying to say “Can you walk into a normal store of an appropriate country and pay with that currency” but even that is flawed, as certain stores don’t accept credit/debit, or don’t accept cash.
My definition of money is “legal tender.”
You literally quoted an article about the US…. Which is again an issue. The Canadian dollar is not legal tender in the US.
There are also countries where the “legal tender” is useless. Take Zig, which is the recently mandated legal tender of Zimbabwe, which is so scarce that it’s impossible to trade in, leading people to fall back to the (by your definition) fake currency of the US Dollar.
I don’t really care what is legal tender in places I will never live. If I visit, I will convert my money to the local currency as needed. Bitcoin however, is NOT going to be among them.
Because it’s not money. It has value, but it is not money.
Lmao this is so weird. You’re talking about how the only real money is legal tender, but then you go off about how you don’t care what legal tender is anywhere other than the US.
I mean, good for you. No one is trying to force Bitcoin down your throat any more than they are the Zig. But using the US definition of what is considered legal tender isn't the vehicle you seem to think it is.
Can you buy a tv with a silver bar?
No, because it’s not legal currency. Are you getting it now?? Valuables aren’t all accepted currency….
Your argument is DEEPLY flawed.
Is it too thick sarcasm, incompetence or you just wanted to say smart cards?
Bitcoin isn’t legal tender. Just accept it.
Dollar isn't legal tender either. Everyone wants something called "рубль".
I can't buy a TV with turquoise either. or sumerian shillings.
And what does that tell you? That maybe those things aren’t legal currency??
Then US Dollar isn't legal currency everywhere outside of USSA. You can't just go to shop and buy groceries with it.
It’s exchangeable. Go to a money exchange and see how much your bitcoin is worth.
now you're shifting the goalposts. why should modern legal standards define a universal anthropolgical phenomenon?
No goalpost has been moved. Currency is clearly defined. So whatever other valuable item you try and offer up as an example will be dismissed as well.
we were discussing money. it's not narrowly defined by what the US government decrees. it's a universal phenomenon across all cultures that predates even written records. do you accept barley corn as payment? the answer doesn't matter because people have used it as money regardless.
Crypto is an un-backed and unregulated security -- the value of which fluctuates wildly. Turns out most people don't like being paid in something that can drastically lose value in the span of hours.
The few people and institutions that accept crypto as payment either immediately convert it back into real money or are "investors" treating it like the security it actually is.
most money throughout history has been "unbacked" and unregulated
"unbacked"
I'm assuming those quotes are referring to fiat currency. Faith in the solvency of the issuing government, widely agreed upon exchange rates, and regulated prices of goods are all forms of backing. Sure: you can argue that's "not enough" but crypto "currencies" don't even have that. Hence why their values fluctuate by the minute -- which defeats the entire purpose of "money".
unregulated
... government controlled central banks and entire bodies of law exist to do just that. Nobody is regulating crypto.
Crypto lacks the features that make money "money". It doesn't have a relatively stable, agreed upon value. It's not easily exchanged for goods or services. It technically can be used as "money" but that's true of anything -- trading cards, a pile of gravel, etc.
government controlled central banks are a new phenomenon, and money existed long before them.
With real money you can take out a loan. Kinda the whole point of money, it represents value that is owed.
While crypto loans would be technically possible it would be a foolish thing to do since it's effectively a short on something that could increase in value. Real money has a small but steady (well, ideally) inflation so you can be confident in taking out a loan and not having to worry about the currency doing something crazy like doubling in value resulting in you owing double the value than you initially borrowed. This is not the case for crypto so it's simply not a viable currency for financing anything.
Since it's not viable for financing, it's not a real currency and never will be. Like is someone supposed to take out a business loan in real currency, convert it to crypto, pay someone else who would then have to convert it back to real money so they can pay back their loan? Why would people want to do all of these conversions back and forth to and from crypto? Because they like the risk of the value dropping for the brief time they're holding onto it?
your standards aren't based on historical fact.
Regardless of your personal opinions about cryptocurrency, that is absolutely what this post is referring to by saying fake money for criminal.
they're not opinions, but I'm sure you're right about the post.
I can only imagine he means American currency, and the anti-counterfeiting technology embedded in it. It's the most popular currency in the world.
Oh, bitcoin? The accounting package that requires the power of a small nation to maintain it? Well, I guess that works, too.
the bitcoin blockchain doesn't require all that power. nothing about the code dictates that. it's a social phenomenon, just like the markets.
Okay, "maintain" isn't the right word, but the mining process is designed that way and it's baked into the whole currency. Actual work could have been done, but instead we burned it all for imaginary money (which isn't much different from fiat currency).
The bitcoin blockchain requires more power than any other blockchain while providing less features.
The only outstanding feature of bitcoin is it's price.
the bitcoin blockchain doesn't require any power. any miner can stop, the blockchain would have less power, and still continue to function.
The bitcoin blockchain doesn't require any power.
Yes. It does. No transaction can occur without proof of work being performed.
any miner can stop, the blockchain would have less power, and still continue to function.
Marginally less power, but nowhere near the reduction needed to compete with a PoS blockchain.
For example Ethereum PoS uses 2,600 MWh per year (= a single 1MW windfarm). Bitcoin uses 53,000x more energy than Ethereum.
the whole network could be run on two raspberry pis. there is no minimum power requirement in the protocol.
the whole network could be run on two raspberry pis.
No. Then someone would buy 3 raspberry pis and claim all the bitcoin.
Bitcoin was a great idea in 2008 but in 2024 it has been overshadowed by other blockchains in every single dimension except for market cap.
the protocol says those 3 pis have consensus. that's how the network is supposed to function.
We are discussing energy usage, not consensus protocols.
The Bitcoin network never going to run on any number raspberry pis. Any claims that it will compete with a PoS blockchain for energy efficiency are ludicrous.
