How One Chinese EV Company Made Battery Swapping Work
How One Chinese EV Company Made Battery Swapping Work
Battery swapping is a technology that could solve one key barrier for EV adoption: consumers’ range anxiety and the long waiting time for battery charging. Wouldn’t you feel more assured on a weekend trip if you knew you could stop at a swap station and replace depleted battery packs with fully char...
See, Apple? Even cars can do it :)
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I don't oppose the idea of battery station, but who owns the battery then? When I bought the car, am I leasing the battery? How about used car?
The company (NIO) owns them and you are leasing the batteries. The car is cheaper this way, as you don’t buy the battery up front, but pay a monthly fee (~200+ in Germany).
You have a fixed number of swaps per month, above that you have to pay extra.
Source: colleague uses a car like this and explained the details.
I hope it’s not 200€ but it’s way higher than what I pay for the gas.
What if they EOL the battery and stops the leasing program? Now the perfectly fine car is non functional because it's missing a battery. If I replace it, I'm just contributing more waste, not in materal but energy. Is that the "green" future we all after?
I'd assume you could still charge them the regular way. You'd just no longer get a fresh one, but that just puts you on par with the other EVs
The ownership is still questionable. Even if that's the case, you're stuck with the battery you last swapped in, which you don't know the wear level or how long it will last.
It's been a while since I've watched it myself, but remember them going into the ownership structure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
There's basically no way for them to not make it a subscription model.
So I can give an example. Here in Taiwan, Gogoro has put up a lot of battery swap stations for their electric scooters. When you buy the scooter, it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own. Or, you can buy a monthly subscription on top of it that gives you access to those battery stations, where you can ride up to one and swap a pair of freshly charged batteries into your scooter. Subscription price is tiered by Ah per month, if you go over the limit you pay extra per Ah.
In this case, yes I think Gogoro is in charge of maintaining/replacing old batteries. Subscription is separate from the scooter cost, so buying used should not affect your ability to subscribe to the plan.
I love that system
it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription? That looks promising.
However, this works for scooters is because the battery pack is small enough for hand carry and install. It won't be on typical 4-wheel vehicles as those are about a thousand pound. Even if we can modular and miniaturize it like how Gogoro does, where to install it is a big problem. Obviously we can't install it in the front compartment as that will be a fire hazard when crash.
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription?
No, you don't get additional batteries. Once you start using the swapping service, the battery that came with your scooter goes into circulation. I suppose when you decide to stop subscribing to the service, the batteries that you have currently will be yours to keep. (I don't own a Gogoro btw)
Yeah, and I agree that this system works great with scooters but not for cars.
Shame. It will be nice if I get a set of batteries I know well when the scooter used less frequently and charging at home makes more sense. Rather gambling on what's the quality/wear level of the next set will be.
Guess that's how they introduce new batteries into the system, and cost them lesser. As long as there are new scooter owners and using the service, there will always be new batteries entering the circulation. All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.
Ratger gambling on what's the quality/wear level of the next set will be.
You shouldn't need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it's priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).
All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.
That's the idea!
You shouldn’t need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it’s priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).
I mean when I use the scooter less frequently (maybe I got a bigger car) or live somewhere else doesn't have the station, thus canceling the subscription. On that, I guess I will be stuck on the last battery set I swapped in.
Ah I see. So I took a quick look at their contract and some articles, the ownership of the batteries is with Gogoro during your plan, and they give you the option to pause this plan (30 days minimum a time, 90 days max per year). If you decide to pause or cancel the plan, you will have to return the batteries you currently have, and they will give you spare batteries in return. I don't think you'll be guaranteed good batteries either way.
Lol. I buy a new vehicle, put new batteries into the circulation, and when I terminate, I got an old set they specify which I have no idea what the wear level is. If I got to keep the last set swapped in, I atleast know how good/bad it performs.
No thanks.
I guess it would either work like a subscription fee or a one time fee per swap
Subscription for my car? Don't we have too much subscriptions already?
And neither solve the ownship problem, and a tons of other problems.
Subscription for fuel.
Gas is more like pas-as-you-go. Battery no so sure. And they are different by nature: gas can't be reused, batteries can.
The energy inside both can’t be reused. Both a gas tank and battery can be refilled.
Gas is just easier to transfer between containers. Electricity needs it be moved inside its container.
Isn't the whole thing about who owns the tank?
Electricity is incredibly easy to move between containers. That's how electric cars work.
Making charging faster by removing most of the range (because you have way less volume to use if it's removable) and making a cheap power source obscenely expensive makes no sense.
The model only works if users are forced to subscribe to a battery swapping service for the full life of the vehicle (or there is a large upfront fee to join with a used vehicle). Otherwise it would be too easy for a consumer with a worn out battery to do a one-time swap and get a like-new battery as a cheap alternative to very costly battery repairs. The dumped battery is likely to have very poor range and the battery swap company will need to dispose of it.
You pay a monthly fee (lease) that contains a certain number of swaps per month, above which you pay extra. The car is also cheaper this way, as you are not paying the full price of the the battery up front
No, you're paying over and over for the battery.
Sort of like how you pay over and over for gas, without which your car doesn't work?
Even when I don’t use it? How is it acceptable?
I don't see anywhere that you can't also just buy a battery and charge it yourself if you'd prefer that over a subscription.
Which the manufacture will either set a high price or simply not offer it. We had this in software (Adobe), and movies/TV shows (Netflix). Companies prefer continuous steady streams of revenue over burst because the numbers will look better for the investors, and easy to show them the solid future of the company.
I won't be in the "Owns nothing and be happy" camp. Or honestly, rarely have things I do not own.
But for gas you don't need to worry ownership problem as you can't reuse gas. Once it is burnt, it's gone.
Batteries are different because you can recharge it, which brings ownership problem into sight. And unlike gas tank for your grill, which the port is somewhat universal and shape doesn't matter too much. Car batteries have wear level that affects performamce (range) and are likely designed to fit a car/platform. It isn't that interchangeable.
No, it's like paying over and over for the gas tank.
But for gas you don't need to worry ownership problem as you can reuse gas. Once it is burnt, it's gone.
Batteries are different because you can recharge it, which brings ownership problem into sight. And unlike gas tank for your grill, which the port is somewhat universal and shape doesn't matter too much. Car batteries have wear level that affects performamce (range) and are likely designed to fit a car/rolling chassis model. It isn't that interchangable.
That's like asking who owns a propane tanks for your grill. You own it while you have it.
When you get a new batter, you own the new one, and relinquish ownership of the previous one, paying for the electricity that's on the new battery. AS LONG AS the battery that you're relinquishing is substantially identical to the new battery.
That "substantially identical" is up for heavy debate.
Sure. If you've abused it in some way so that it doesn't take or hold charge, then you might have to pay for a replacement battery. But I think there would be an implied warranty when you're given a replacement, that the replacement was fit for service. And the company might just have to roll the cost or replacing batteries every so often into their electricity pricing models.
In my head the batteries would work somewhat like the electric scooters you can rent around big cities. There would be battery companies that pay stations to stock their batteries. Then EV owners pay for the juice they used, plus a little extra for the wear, plus a little extra to make it worth it for the battery companies when they swap to a new battery. So you're essentially renting the batteries.
I would guess a swappable battery would be separated from the vehicle, similar to a gas bottle for a grill.
The battery would be rented for a small deposit and on swapping you only pay the energy + service fee.
I guess you could also buy one to own, but then could not swap that.
That's how it would make sense, at least.
I will take ownership over leasing as a 200 miles range is more than enough for me. But you will see if the leasing model works out, they will only have leasing left for you as that's a continous money flow. Or have the battery be super expensive to discourage you buy it.
Renault tried leasing the batteries in EV in an effort to lower the initial cost of the car while increasing their tail for future owners. They abandoned it only a few years in as it was a disaster for their used market that got worse the older the car got as nobody wanted the ongoing cost. Only the initial owner saved money, and only if they managed to use PCP finance with a balloon set before Renault realised that the battery leased cars would be worth significantly less.
Renault also did not like that with older cars they would be liable for the battery replacement far sooner than they planned as they (initially) had a higher percentage unusable before they had to do a free replacement vs. a normal battery warranty, made worse as a leased battery has a warranty as long as you are paying the lease.
Renault could repossess the car if you stopped paying the battery lease and refused to buy it out. Its like any car finance that puts a lien or similar on the car, you do not own it till its gone.
Yeah, when I wanted to buy an electric car I look at the used market for the Renault Zoe but I quickly gave up.
The idea of paying a monthly subscription on a used car quickly turned me off and buying the leased battery back from Renault was prohibitively expensive.
That just proofs my point in https://lemmy.ml/comment/11726077
Once they get you on the hook, they can only provide the subscription option, much like how software (Adobe, I'm looking at you) does today. Or have the one-time purchase option be super expensive to lure customers into the subscription model.
Simply because continous revenue is batter then a one-time purchase.
It's not just that, its what happens if you get a battery from a guy named roger who said he knows what he's doing and fucked with it?
Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.
Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.
Government regulation and standardization is the answer.
You know, like fossil fuels also are. For example fuelpumps have to be legally calibrated so that they measure accurately, and there are a myriad of quality standards and ratings regarding what 98 octane or 95 octane or diesel fuel or whatever can contain.
I can already hear a mile away lobbyist paid by the manufactures rubbing their hands arguing standardization "limits innovations" and "slow developments."
So now we’re tacking on government regulation and certifications, an independent reaction regime? On top of building out a global infrastructure carrying around batteries that each way a ton, supporting robotics to manipulate those batteries, getting everyone to agree to use the same batteries, etc? Compared to “plug it in wherever you are”?
Battery swapping is a cool idea and there may be equipment that needs it, but it would just make personal vehicles more complicated and expensive with little gain
How does this solve the issue of roger fucking with his battery and then you ending up with it during a battery swap? You do realize how many states with counties have no inspections right?
Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.
For example: I once pumped petrol in my diesel car due to human error by the gas station's supply company (they put petrol in the diesel tanks). They found out about the error as I was filling up and stopped me halfway, so luckily I had no engine damage, but they had to pay for the tow and to get my tank emptied.
how many states with counties have no inspections
Sounds more like a "your government is shit" problem than a "this scheme can't work" problem.
Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.
Ah, so you're wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?
Sounds more like a "your government is shit" problem than a "this scheme can't work" problem.
It's not a gov problem, it's a logistics issue.
Gas gets to the gas station somehow. Obviously it isn't the same as transporting batteries back and forth but it's bad faith to say this is completely unprecedented logistics problem. I am under the impression that battery health could be screened at the swap facility and would require a small subset to be returned to a hub for additional inspection or repair.
Yea gas is a one way trip, and then it's into the end customer. It's not an unprecedented logistics problem, it's just a logistics problem that ends up requiring a ton of more energy. Batteries need to be able to charge way quicker and hold a longer charge, that's the problem that should be getting worked, not a how to transport battery packs around.
Truck still has to go somewhere. Obviously it's lighter but it doesn't blip out of existence. Amazon trucks to back to hub after delivery, FedEx, USPS. Both technologies can advance simultaneously and mutually.
Edit: some wording
I'm expecting drones to take a ton of the short space deliveries sooner than EV trucks.
And that is being worked on. Billions of dollars has been going there. We have solid state batteries in the lab that can charge much faster and safer, and all sorts of companies promising to bring them to production in a couple of years. Do people really think we’re farther from that being reality than from building out an entirely new global infrastructure that will become obsolete before it’s completed?
The issue is we haven't had real breakthroughs in battery tech since the 70s, we've gotten slightly better improvements but we're still using the same base. We've had tons of promises in the lab but nothing has actually made it out. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough but so far there hasn't been.
Maybe you should take a look at some these charts, especially power density and cost
There have been huge improvements
To me, this is the biggest argument against battery swapping.
We have this huge industry for refining, storing, distributing, distributing ending gasoline that we can entirely dismantle with EVs. All that pollution: gone. All that wasted land: gone. All those unnecessary levels of profit-seeking: gone. Now you want to choose a technology that requires rebuilding all that, except two way? You want to force the new technology to conform to old infrastructure ideas?
How can we not prefer the alternative of “just plug it in wherever you are”? How can we not prefer the rare opportunity of simplifying something? How can we not forgo all those unnecessary profit seekers?
At the moment my two biggest fears against buying an EV is it catching fire in my garage and it dying after 5 years then having to buy a 30k battery. Once technology advances that doesn't happen I will buy and I would love your plan. Why can't this be a stop gap?
It already doesn’t happen.
- while there have been fires and they do burn hot and self oxidize, it’s more rare than for ICE cars and usually caused by physical damage.
- my EV battery is warranted for 8 years, 100k miles, and some are higher
- my Tesla battery could be replaced for $15k, and it’s been decreasing over time, so half what you fear
- batteries usually don’t just die: end of life is usually set at 70% health, meaning you can keep using it with reduced range
Swappable batteries can’t be a stop gap because it would require a huge infrastructure buildout over many years that would become a lost investment, versus technology that’s already here and improving every year. Starting from scratch with swap stations, vehicle design, industry standards, vs hundreds of thousands of charging stations already deployed.
If you think chargers aren’t available enough or expanding enough, consider that they’re known technology, relatively cheap, installable by any electrician, using a national power infrastructure that already exists. Installing a level 2 charger at my house was equivalent to a new stove circuit. I mean I agree we need to speed up the buildout, but think how cheap and easy these are compared to developing an entire new infrastructure from scratch. How simple a ”plug” is compared to a robot that can handle a one ton battery. How long it took to standardize an effing plug, compared to standardizing entire battery packs. How can anyone think this would go faster?
I looked more into fires and battery replacement and agree with your stats, much appreciated for the info.
However, I never said it swappable would be faster for expanding. I said it was safer and allow for battery integrity evaluation. I agree the ideal solution would be chargers in homes as long as battery health and saftey are reasonable which they already reaching that point.
I see alot of talk in these threads about how bad it would be to make infrastructure and need to invest. But our current infrastructure didn't just show up. I bet when the first cars came out people with horses said the same thing. Thinking how much it would cost to build all these gas stations and refineries. Investment will have to happen and EV is the future. Obviously home chargers are cheaper and again the ideal solution as technology advances and the grid can keep up.
Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?
No, that's just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.
Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can't easily mess with it, just like you normally don't mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home. QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they've dispensed.
We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.
It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.
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The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn't in Backwater USA is no argument.
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Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
No, that's just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.
So each swap station is going to have batteries techs that know what the fuck they're doing, checking on every battery that comes in?
Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can't easily mess with it, just like you normally don't mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home.
What world do you live in? People fuck with their houses all the time, its why you get an inspection when you buy a home(even if most inspectors only find the shit on the surface).
QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they've dispensed.
Again so you're going to have ever charge station have basically certified battery engineers that can check out battery systems that come in? Are you also planning on forcing the EV makers into standardized battery packs?
We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.
Cool, when is the last time you saw an empty beer bottle truck catch fire because roger fucked with his miller lite?
- The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn't in Backwater USA is no argument.
Ah so only in good ol EU do you guys not have car crashes and house fires because regulation has solved that shit.
- Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
Cool, whataboutism got it...the real problem you should be talking about is how quickly you can charge a battery and how long it'll last on said charge...not let's re-invent the wheel...
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As opposed to quality control from the manufacturer, once for the life of the vehicle, before you even buy, and with a long warranty?
….. that already exists?
With my EV I follow recommended practice to ensure longevity of the battery. I rarely charge it more than halfway as I don't need to for my regular usage, and I avoid letting it run down entirely. Once you engage in battery swapping, where's the incentive to take care of it well? After my first swap my brand new excellent condition battery is replaced by who knows what.
Exactly, this is the equivalent of tire swaps...my tires I take care of and rotate and replace when the tread is worn down, the hell do I want someone's else batteries being in my car that could end up having a short lift or explode on me.
The charger would have some inspection capability. Maybe not physical integrity of the casing but certainly the voltag and current outputs and connectivity of cells which could would correlate to health.
Ok, roger shows up dumps his shit battery or ticking time bomb and gets a free battery out of it. Do you plan on requiring everyone to show ID and get a face scan?
That is why they make you lease the battery. You cannot swap out your old battery, just the battery you are leasing. Your lease payments include the cost of them replacing batteries.
What stops people from messing with their leased batteries?
There are already plenty of shady car mechanics named roger who can swindle you out there...
Yea, sure but that doesn't effect me because I have the chance to know who's working on my car, you don't if you habe battery swapping going on.
Not just about "who owns it?" but also how does it work with insurance if something goes terribly wrong and who will bear the responsibility?