‘A new Nakba’: settler violence forces Palestinians out of West Bank villages
‘A new Nakba’: settler violence forces Palestinians out of West Bank villages
Communities who have clung on for decades are leaving their homes in the face of rising attrition by Israelis
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Nakba doesn't convey the severity of this. At least in English. An ethnic cleansing, a genocide, a destruction of the people. More descriptive terms for the English audience
The Palestinian Holocaust
Nakba conveys it just fine if you have read history.
Nakba is a term I've never heard of until 2 weeks ago.
I'm not the most well-read person on the planet, but I have a decent amount of world history knowledge. I imagine most people don't know what nakba means if they're not already involved with Palestine history.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Nakba&hl=en-US
For me it's like when Jewish people say something is a pogrom. The historical context behind it has some bearing.
per they article they're being forced to leave & go anywhere else. that's not genocide.
a textbook case of genocide - Raz Segal - JewishCurrents
I'm no genocideoligist, but Raz Segal is.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University
In the linked above article, he walks through the definition of genocide, and the actions taken. It fits the definition.
When you're a genocideologist everything looks like genocide.
It's inherent to his genocideology
Average person says it's a genocide: "It's not a genocide! What do you know?"
Literal expert in genocide, who's also Jewish, says it's a genocide and gives details why: "Of course it looks like a genocide to them! They're always looking for genocides!"
What do you imagine an 'expert in genocide' knows more about genocide than you do?
An expert in the field has spent a lifetime studying, writing, debating, and thinking about the field. We can survey the course catalog at Stockton on Genocide studies to get a first taste in what a expert would be able to contribute.
These specifically stand out as focuses relevant to our conversation today 'Witness to Genocide, Genocide War Crimes and Law, War Nationalism and Genocide, Ordinary Evil'... tell me what is your philosophy on Ordinary Evil?
https://www.stockton.edu/general-studies/holocaust-and-genocide-studies.html
- GAH 2114 Perspectives on Genocide
- GSS 2240 The Holocaust
- ANTH 2220 Ethnicity
- GAH 2112 Art, Politics and the Nazi Era
- GAH 2113 Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazis
- GAH 2119 History and Memory of Nazi Era
- GAH 2156 History of Antisemitism
- GAH 2319 Music and the Holocaust
- GAH 2326 Art and the Holocaust
- GAH 2362 The Armenian Genocide
- GAH 3215 Literature of Genocide and Upheaval
- GAH 3234 Holocaust Literature
- GAH 3248 Media, Public Perception & Genocide
- GEN 2238 The Holocaust and Children’s Literature
- GEN 2308 Children of the Holocaust
- GIS 3418 Witness to Genocide
- GIS 3601 Seminar on the Holocaust
- GIS 3658 Women and Genocide
- GIS 3659 Genocide, War Crimes and Law
- GIS 3660 The Impact of the Holocaust
- GIS 3662 Will Genocide Ever End?
- GIS 3665 The Great War and the Armenian Genocide
- GIS 3666 The Holocaust in Film and Literature
- GIS 3667 Families in Genocide: History and Memory
- GIS 3671 The Holocaust and the Christian World
- GIS 4482 Climate Change, Conflict and Genocide
- GIS 4641 Approaches to Auschwitz
- GSS 1057 War, Nationalism and Genocide
- GSS 2190 Ordinary Evil
- GSS 2196 Race and Nation in History
- GSS 2216 Holocaust and Genocide Denial
- GSS 2248 Business and Nazi Germany
- GSS 2328 Native America and Genocide
- GSS 2353 America and the Holocaust
- GSS 2432 Civic Mindfulness in the 21st century
- GSS 3172 Ethnic Violence and Nationalism
- GSS 3211 Refugees in the Modern World
- GSS 3212 The Rwandan Genocide
- GSS 3240 Holocaust and Genocide Education
- GSS 3278 Study Tour: Holocaust
- GSS 3946 Holocaust Resource Center Internship
- HIST 2117 Modern Germany
- HIST 3615 Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin
- HIST 3616 History of the Third Reich
- LITT 3206 Literature after the Holocaust
- LITT 3318 Literature and Genocide
Raz Segal appears to have done lots of research of the societal bystander effect, where a genocide can happen without anyone getting involved....
One of his lectures, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJH4NDfINE8
he is well spoken, his lecture took more then 2 minutes...
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=EJH4NDfINE8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You gave such a thoughtful well crafted response to a person who is clearly being a troll. But thank you for that, at least you provide good reading materials.
I try not to think of them as trolls, more like explain it like I'm five users. Imagine most of the internet is basically sugar hyped toddlers with the attention span of goldfish, and a rough grasp of the English language.
Explain it like I'm 5, is probably still too high a bar. :)
You can think about them whatever you like, doesn't make them any less trolls. Also they want to get a reaction out of you, and all you are doing is feeding that.
Creating content for the lemmy verse :)
That's a long list, but is there anything in there on genocide you couldn't figure out yourself?
All of it, the context, the implications, the patterns...
I am not as intelligent and intuitive as you, I have to do research practice, and communicate before I can compete with an expert in a field.
That's a long list, but is there anything in there you didn't figure out yourself?
I'm clearly not as gifted and as well read as you, I have to do research before I know a subject.
Are you a literalist where all the people fitting the demographic must be killed to the last person in order for it to be literal genocide? Because right now your argument is “Nuh uh! No it isn’t!” with zero backup in the face of historical evidence and the words of an expert. Even in America we committed a genocide of our natives, yet some of them live, some of them were made to move elsewhere, and not all of them were killed off.
It’s abundantly clear you willfully refuse to understand what “genocide” is.
Well the 'cide' part refers to 'killing'
How would you differentiate between 'forcefully made to move' and 'killed' if you can't imagine using different words for them?
They have different phrases
Ethnic Cleansing - Clearing a ethnicity from a area
Genocide - The pogrom being persecuted in Gaza now.
Ethnic Cleansing is part of a overall Genocide.
You really should read the article, it clarifies things greatly. https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide.
Stubborn one, aren’t ya.
Does studying the occurrences and causes of genocide make you unable to correctly identify them? I would think it to be the opposite, them being able to better identify and understand current genocides or events and actions that might lead to one.
Genocide is a rather simple word. It's a contraction of geno (race) with cide (murder/killing). Anyone telling you they've needed to study the meaning of the word for more than 2 minutes is either a moron or a liar
You have spent more then 2 minutes discussing genocide here with us today, have you not used more then 2 minutes of thought in all your posts?
Writing a book on genocide would take more then 2 minutes. Writing a catalog of all known genocides would take more then 2 minutes. Writing up the definition of genocide would take more then 2 minutes, getting two people to agree on a definition would take FOREVER. Getting 152 countries to agree on the definition of genocide would take years...
Taking a complex issue, and being reductive to the point of absurdity isn't being helpful.
On the contrary, I believe trying to expand a definition to the point of absurdity isn't helpful.
The idea behind the term genocide is clear and simple: the intent to destroy an ethnicity.
People are trying to call Israels intent to disperse the ethnic Arabs from Palestine a genocide (to add more weight to the crime), when even the UN definition is clear this is not included.
Do you consider the Nakba as genocide?
I'm going to refer you to the genocide scholar article above above. I'm no longer going to debate with you
So tomorrow if I come armed and evict you from your home, along with your family that would be okay, because there are other places where you can go and live? Is this what you are trying to tell us?
Let's be charitable. That's not what they're saying.
They're saying it doesn't fit the murder everybody definition of genocide, which is a fair position. However, Genocide is more broadly defined by the UN, and ethnically cleansing a region, is a part of an overall genocide.
Update: I should not have been charitable...
Well that's the UN's fault for wording ethnic cleansing as a form of genocide, which in reality it can be a part of.
But in the real world it's just liars first lobbying to broaden a written definition to later abuse it.
What language would you use to describe removing an ethnicity from an area, so that it may be ethnically pure for a different ethnicity?
Ethnic purification?
Get ready for it...
Drumroll
"Ethnic Cleansing"
Applause
I misunderstood your previous argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Genocide_Convention
The people who wrote and vote for the UN convention against genocide, includes Israel.
So we're measuring them by their own metric, using their own legislation, which they wrote and voted for. Seems fair.
I suggest not copying Israel's stupid definitions for anything
Genocide: murdering everyone of a certain ethnicity
Ethnic cleansing: removing everyone of a certain ethnicity from an area
Of course both can go hand in hand. Threatening murder, often by setting some prolific examples, is a way to convince people to leave.
There's a difference between WW2 nazi's checking the Spanish border making sure jews trying to escape are sent back to the extermination camps, and zionist settlers cutting down orchards and shooting a few farmers to scare them off.
What's happening in the West Bank is extremely deplorable but it's no different from what's happening in, for example, Western Sahara or Nagorno Kharabag
Wikipedia Wikipedia 2 UN Human rights watch Wiktionary
I'm sorry you have a fight with the English language, but this term is well defined. It is defined in a legal sense, by both people who have suffered from genocide, and people who want to prevent genocide. Including the government of Israel which is committing a genocide, by their own definition, against the people of Palestine.
If you want to argue that English should be different, Wikipedia talks, and wikitionary talk pages are good places to do it. You could also reach out to your local State department, and petition them to get the definition of genocide changed.
We here on Lemmy cannot resolve your dispute with the English language, sorry
Genocide: murdering everyone of a certain ethnicity
Nope, "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part", which is the case with Israel.
Ethnic cleansing: removing everyone of a certain ethnicity from an area
Nope, nothing says you have to displace everyone, just that you attempt it and have shown on numerous occasions that you intend to do it (which is the case with Israel)
You can say whatever you want, but making up new definitions (or maybe "oversimplified" definitions) of a thing is not a good way to have a discussion.
Go apply to the UN. They have some vacancies now that Israel bombed so many UN workers in their home. I'm sure they will appreciate all your thoughtful commentary!
Are you a fucking retard?
No need for the ableist slur. There are much better, creative, and entertaining ways to insult people who act in bad faith and have the self-awareness of a modern LLM.
is forcing people to go anywhere else actually "ethnically cleansing" though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
this isnt that.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn't have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh... using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnic_cleansing
The word has a very clear meaning. I'm sorry you don't like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history... You're right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn't make it any less bad just common
if it's so common that literally every country in recorded history is guilty of it (and they are if the accepted definition is so broad) then it's just another part of governance - unworthy of discussion even.
Ethnic cleansing is unworthy of discussion, because every country has participated in it in some point in their history?
So from that standpoint, you're happy to get ethnically cleansed, right? It shouldn't be worth discussion, if a government agent wants to hand over your area to a different ethnicity. You wouldn't have anything to say about that right? Your family would be cool with it too right?
And if the people who have been ethnically cleansed, try to ethnically cleanse their oppressors, that's not newsworthy either right? So there shouldn't have been any news reporting of hamas's ethnic cleansing attempts? Right? It's not newsworthy, why are we even talking about it...
Countries also execute people, we still talk about murder.
i love getting cleansed - so much so that I do it every morning (irish spring is the best soap ever). seriously though - no one here participating in this discussion/argument/whatever has ever been in even the remotest danger of being ethnically cleansed. what we say doesnt matter. you and I, any anyone who views these comments now or in years to come, we dont make policy. our opinion is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
you say "oh no, it's bad!". ok, great. it's good to have a position. my position is that our positions dont matter. the news doesnt matter. you think policy makers actually care what nonsense the journalists say? queue my endlessly contagious derisive laughter.
Slavery has been an institution in almost all if not all contries at some point. That doesn't make it any less horrible, that other atrocities are also common doesn't make them less atrocious either.
it's interesting to note that slavery was still a thing in some countries even up until the 1960s. in fact, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam outlawed slavery in 1990 - 33 years ago. how progressive! how totally hip and with-the-times!
and this discussion is quibbling about a little thing like ethnic cleansing. pish posh!
most
asiancountries are guilty of ethnic cleansingYes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn't make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
See, you're not playing the game by the rules certain groups are playing.
you're right. I'm not. you gotta buck the trend, for novelty's sake if nothing else - it keeps the squares on their toes. I find it sad that you got downvoted (not not voting means anything on this platform) for disagreeing with the herd mentality, so I didja a solid and poked the updoot button.
was a fun discussion, for a little while. it seems to have devolved into the insulting phase now. always does. it's like... we (humanity) just cant rise above our base impulses. if someone refuses to listen, they start getting insulted - like, subconsciously some people just cant accept that their opinion is literally meaningless. it's just... weird.
anyway, toodles!
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Latin: genos (race or tribe) and cide (killing).
So about that....
Population transfer is not equal to ethic or tribal killing. Someone at the UN needs to learn latin.
Ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide.
I think the politicians and diplomats who got together in 1948 were cognizant of that.
Consider
You ethnically cleanse a population, they resist, fighting breaks out. The ethnic cleansing moves into a pogrom, repeat... Genocide.
Yes, but their intentions are a forced migration or population transfer. Saying cleaning or genocide means the wholesale murder of the population. So you're using loaded language which is weakening your argument.
Israel has made it clear they no longer welcome Palestinians along their border. They have been working with neighbors to accept them and essentially the two state option is no longer an option. That isn't ethnic cleansing or genocide, that is a population transfer.
Now had both sides worked together and forged a diplomatic relationship the two state option would have been successful, but that didn't occur. Both sides were continually hostile to one another. Now the Palestinian people are going to be relocated and will once again be stateless.
The mass expulsion or killing of people belonging to one ethnic group by those of another.
It seems we're using different definitions of ethnic cleansing. I present to you the dictionary and Wikipedia.
Forced relocation of the population, is ethnic cleansing by definition.
I'm using dictionary definitions, internationally agreed definitions, I'm using the words as their intended in international law and in common usage. I believe that strengthens my argument
Permanently Deleted
No, I am not, in this particular context I was speaking strictly about this particular occurrence of unprovoked violence.
well, you wont. but sure, for the sake of argument, lets say you did. let's further assume that I am not ensconced in my comfortable house in a first world nation just like you, but instead eke out a miserable existence watching goats eat scrub. yes, i would move and be grateful to finally have an excuse to do so.
so, just to reiterate: moving from one place to another isnt genocide. imagine that!
People are not grateful for being displaced. Especially when you don't have any economic prospects in the place you're displaced to.
I don't know what your least favorite country in the world is, but for the sake of argument let's say it's Yemen. If I forced you to leave under threat of death, to move to Yemen, without your social network, without your wealth, without knowledge of the local language, without a special skill set, without anything except one pair of clothes. You would not be ecstatic about that, you would not be grateful.
I would hazard a guess that most people do not like being forced to do anything, even if it's in their best interest
shepherds already have extremely limited economic prospects. it's not like they're skilled artisans, constructing unique crafts that can only be manufactured using materials that can only be sourced from that one geographic location. no, they oversee domesticated herd-beasts that dont have any natural predators in their habitat and feed themselves on whatever plants grow wherever they happen to be - lichen, thorn bushes, dried straw, etc.
it's only a occupation by definition, but a pet rock could be just as good of a shepherd - it takes about as much "skill" to do. outside of the inner desert regions & cities, a shepherd can exist, if not thrive - ie: they can do the same thing wherever they go. herding communities are usually insular in nature - they dont need to know the local language. their source of food, their entire reason for being, those are animals and they feed themselves - the animals are usually their currency as well.
maybe a change of scenery is exactly what they need - they may even be thankful for it in the months and years to come.
As someone who herds sheep for a living, I'm going to guess you've never herded sheep in your life lol.
I tended some goats a few times as a favor to a neighbor - well, made sure they didnt get out of their fenced off area of 3 acres. honestly found it to be very dull and uninspiring. perhaps I was doing it wrong? maybe there's a way to spice it up? do you dress up in a wolf costume to keep things lively? toss lit fireworks at the sheeples?
do tell, I'm sure the stories you've got will be absolutely riveting!
I see you've changed the goal post from being grateful immediately, to being thankful in the future.
Just because you don't respect somebody's occupation, doesn't mean they don't value their own occupation. Independence has huge psychological benefits for people.
Not to mention refugees, are moved to places that already have economies, and land use, so there's not going to be open land for shepherd to feed a flock on. They're going to be competing with the locals.
I really don't know why you are wasting your time arguing with people like him, he won't see reason no matter how hard you try.
Because if we don't argue, then the misanthropes get to have the final word. And then other normal people will look at the discussions, and think the misanthropes and the hateful people are in the majority.
We have to participate so that our voices are heard, so that our peers, and are online peers, can see that they they are not alone.
We can't allow the normalization of hate and violence to destroy society, and that means we have to participate
agreeing with your ideology is never going to happen. believing in lies just doesnt jive with "seeing reason" for me.
Oh, so you're blind!
He's not blind, he's got five fingers stuffed in each ear and he's screaming "ALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU"
you're totally correctamundo about my complete and total lack of respect for their occupation - I reiterate, a garden gnome would be just as effective at herding animals as a shepherd. is being forced to do the same thing that your father did because he did the same thing his father did actually independence? it seems to me that's flawed thinking. the world is constantly in flux - a rigid, uncompromising, unyielding nature isnt going to get you very far. that's even more true when you're going to get to experience new vistas.
changed the goal post? should we be as unyielding as you're insinuating that the shepherds are, or should be? should they be ungrateful in the now and regretful in the future? does it even matter? will they have to compete, strive, suffer? of course they will! suffering is part of the human condition - it has ever been thus.
Your nihilist philosophy aside... We all live in a world, and we all have different life experiences, if you find yourself saying a different life experience isn't worth living, that must be applied to you as well.
As long as people aren't interfering with each other, they should be allowed to live however they like... Be it goat herding, or being a professional sophist troll online
you know, I've thought about that a lot - it's the great philosophical question of our age: does anything that we do actually matter? are we, as individuals, just so insignificant that our actions (whatever they may be) are meaningless? how do we, individually, impact the world? how do we strike our brand onto the graven slate of existence, proving that we're here, we matter, we existed?! perhaps by exchanging barbs online.
thank you for the compliment - I too thought that my logical argument, nay, position was indeed crafty in nature.
you're an idiot, you're not exchanging anything, you're confusing agressivity with wit
Oh now I see, you truly believe those people are subhuman and their lives don't matter. Glad that you have finally shown your true nature, so that I can simply block you, and have my feed not stained with people like you!
I love when folks argue themselves to a conclusion that they were going to come to whether I was involved in or nor. it's like a prophecy, but it happens - not in that hokey biblical fantasy way.
I in no way insinuated that anyone was subhuman - but honestly compels me to admit than I thought that you were, @filister@lemmy.world. only up until you made this comment that I'm responding to - but now I can see that you're just a flea, undeserving of my attention.
best of luck with that!
Displacement is part of genocide.