EU states can ban religious symbols in public workplaces
EU states can ban religious symbols in public workplaces
The court ruling came after a Belgian employee was told she could not wear an Islamic headscarf.
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Sounds fair to me, we need less religion everywhere.
What I don't get is the right wing pushing this and the left wing being against it, while the hero of the far left said 'Religion is the opium of the masses.'
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Then wouldn't they be against Islam forcing women to wear the hijab??
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The “culture” is religious though, like we can’t pretend it’s a social thing, absent religious doctrine.
I mean yes there is the command to cover yourself in the quran, [24:31] for example ("... And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to reveal their adornments except what normally appears. Let them draw their veils over their chests, and not reveal their ˹hidden˺ adornment...").
Still, the idea of women generally being forced to wear it by their family/social circle is wrong.There is over 14300 years debate material about if this specific order to a time where women were targeted because who the were, or a general islamic rule.
Regardless it is never, telling man what and what not to wear, but always telling women what and what not to wear.
If the really care about Muslims women being forced to wear it, the law should be:
- if you force female to wear or not wear anything then you go to prison. Then that would aolve the problem and gave people the freedom to wear or not wear religious symbols.
Ah where did this debate take place with ehich people? AFAIK all 4 sunni schools are unanimous in their intepretation, that people have to cover their bodies.
It is also very much telling men what and what not to wear. The specific body parts that have to be covered differ from school to school, for women and for men, but every muslim scholar says that every human has to cover certain parts of their body from the gaze of other people.Well this is factually not true as Islamic law prescribes men dress modestly but at least cover themselves from at **least their belly buttons to their knees. ** If the shorts get too short men do get called out for it.
Furthermore you are insinuating that a woman cannot, of her own free will, choose to wear a headscarf. So you the big important male must decide it for her. Which is not very feminist of you.
Yeah if you don't wear it you get beaten... Totally not forced.
How many women wearing hijab do you actually know, to come to the conclusion they would all get beaten and forced to wear it?
Because from the women i know none of them is forced to do so. And given that noone is around that could force them, as they are expats and they are exposed to plenty women not wearing hijab, both nin religious and muslim, i am certain that they choose to wear hijab on their own accord.
I bet the male dominated and generally oppressive culture behind it has nothing to do with their willingness, out of their own volition, to decide to wear it.
Nothing at all.
Next time i'll see her i'll ask the researcher with a Phd in physics who lived in western countries since 15 years, if she is too stupid to realize the difference between the village she grew up in and the great European countries were millions of liberators like you are waiting to liberate her by forbidding her to wear a hijab at work.
You do that
I know enough women who were forced to wear hijab by their families and most of them nowadays have gotten away from their families and havent spoken to their families in years. Also one of the families tried to lure their daughter to Iran and another family were stopped at the airport after one of the women told border police that she was at the airport against her will.
A lot of women are totally forced to wear hijab.
The free will of women wearing the hijab comes from fear of gOd and social pressure of being impure. No person on its right mind would choose to wear it.
I for sure would prefer if women wouldn't be forced to wear it. But lets be realistic: banning it doesn't make things better, only worse. These women won't stop wearing a hijab, they will just stop going outside. And now you made the situation even worse for them.
A group of iranian college students visited my town in the summer.
None of the girls used any sort of head cover and at some that came as a topic.
Even in Iran, as much as they can, every woman goes without it, unless the religious police is somewhere nearby.
The general, widespread view is that it is a form of repression and nothing else, yet their government/religious authority enforces it.
Although unpopular and understood as fascist, these decisions in european countries echoe impositions islamic countries make to foreigners.
Obviously, the ones who view it as a form of repression, would have already not been wearing headgarb in EU. The ones that do probably think different.
After all it's not as if everyone belonging to one religion is viewing it in the same way.
I'm not going to even step into that debate.
thats bad, but still not as bad as the government responding with mandates on what women are or are not allowed to wear, nor is this an answer to the problem
like, how do you reckon this is going to pan out? you reckon women who actually are coerced into covering up are going to take it off when they go to public buildings (including schools), or do you reckon the men in their life just wont let them go to public buildings (including schools) anymore?
the right either has not thought about this law or is completely disingenuous about why they support it
the right ... is completely disingenuous about why they support it
Are they ever ingenuous?
the men in their life just wont let them go to public buildings (including schools) anymore
This one is the most likely outcome.
They seem to be somewhat in denial about it. Which is quite sad
I think it would be hard to find a leftist who is not supporting the struggle of Iranians against being forced by law to wear a hijab.
And equally we are against Western governments forcing women to not wear a hijab.
Forcing people is the wrong doing. Easy to understand, isn’t it?
No, because "Islamophobia".
The rest of the quote is: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." Take from that what you will.
I also don't know that most people who identify as or are called left wing would call Marx their hero.
Take from that what you will.
The only things anyone with a brain can take from it is that religion is a cancer, masquerading as a source of strength and hope when it in fact supresses those qualities, leading to an alienated population.
Opium is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions.
The answer to this by you is: Ban opium!
My answer would be: Fight oppression!
The fight is not about drugs, it is about self-determination, dignity, freedom. It is the fight against capitalism. And today the search is on how to prevent the socialist society from turning into an autocracy.
Children have questions, e.g.: Where is grandma now? Until we have a satisfactory answer to this, religion will exist. But in a free world it will no longer be addictive.
And everyone can put on or take off whatever they want. We should start with this immediately.
False dichotomy, you can do both, and in fact by doing both strengthen both positions.
An argument I've heard against it is that it's overly harmful against non-western religions, specifically Islam. A pretty common tenet in Islam is some kind of head covering for woman. Banning that is a pretty sweeping reform. Christianity and Catholicism don't have anything like that, and if you really wanted to wear a cross you could just hide a necklace under your shirt. And Judaism, most non -orthodox Jews don't wear a yamaka 24/7. So in the end (typical) white religions aren't affected while minorities are.
Personally for me I don't care about wearing a religious symbol as long as you're not pushing your agenda. I don't care if my boss has a Bible on his desk any more than if he had a copy of dragon Ball z.
I would vastly prefer if my boss had DBZ rather than a Bible. BDZ is just literature, the Bible is a symbol of indoctrination, I don't want my boss to be influenced by some made up nonsense
Nuns and priests would not be allowed to wear their religious clothes either, so I’m okay with that.
It is not the secular state's fault that one religion chooses to be more backwards than the others by requiring religious clothing from all women, and is thus more affected by a ban on religious symbols.
Adapt to modernity or get the fuck out
And you expect that to be enforced?
Given that in one German state it was mandatory by state law to have a cross in every public building, from a party that is very overt about banning hijabs, i strongly doubt that.
The reality will be that this will target muslims everywhere and maxbe a few stry christians. But the vast majority of christian strongholds, like Germanys catholic south will simply not enforce it against christians.
So, we should just accept backwards superstition and archaic societal ideals because Bavaria is made up of Christian reactionaries?
Enforce it from Berlin then. Deploy personnel to monitor the application. If Bavaria tries to play favorites, big fines for each case.
As a german I am tired of conservative obstructionism, especially when it’s Bavaria, the german state embodiment of selfish and short sighted backwardness.
So, we should just accept backwards superstition and archaic societal ideals because Bavaria is made up of Christian reactionaries?
Enforce it from Berlin then. Deploy personnel to monitor the application. If Bavaria tries to play favorites, big fines for each case.
While i agree with your sentiment the reality is that christian fundamentalists (in appearance, in behaviour they are devilish unchristian) are still powerful in German politics and we see a resurgence in their popularity among the voters. The majority of the German people is happy with persecution of muslims and doesnt care about favoritism towards christians.
So, we should just accept backwards superstition and archaic societal ideals
No, we should fight that. With words. With arguments. And not by banning clothing.
Clothing is just a symbol and the meaning changes all the time and from context to context. People who want to ban clothing are just in favor of putting pressure on other people, on forcing others to be like them. It’s despicable.
I was a teenager with very long hair in the seventies. I loved my hair, it told the world that I was a free spirit. And it was a very powerful asshole-detector. Every now and then some backwarded adult would come up to tell me I would have been sent to concentration camp under Hitler. And it was quite obvious that they wished Hitler to come back and do so again. Just for me wearing long hair.
I don’t think you believe, but I am convinced that there are quite a number of young Muslimas here in Berlin who chose to wear a headscarf to uni while their mother says "Please, don’t risk your career!"
And they say: "Mother, this scarf tells them where I'm from. And if they keep me from having a career it’s not because of the scarf, it’s because they hate who I am."
"All this pseudo-liberal, pseudo-tolerant, pseudo-feminist, pseudo-open-minded assholes, I would never detect them without that scarf! Now leave me alone, I’ve got a heritage to defend."
You’re much closer to Söder than to a humanist.
So you whipped up a whole fictitious little story in which I’m the evil reactionary based on me being anti theist? Okay then.
And just for the record, you comment also illustrates perfectly the cognitive dissonance employed here. A muslim immigrant that is proud of their muslim heritage isn’t brave or admirable, it’s the same dumb shit as any german christian who would try to argue that.
I don’t want people to feel free to be ultra conservative religious quran thumpers because we are so liberal and tolerant. I want them to be taught that this shit isn’t welcome here and if they want to be they have to leave it behind.
The right wing is pushing specifically for the banning of things like the hijab or other religious head coverings usually worn by women. They justify it by saying that these head coverings are a symbol of oppression against women, and have no place in a free society.
Thing is though, how free is a society if it feels it has to dictate what women can and can't wear?
That's the catch 22 isn't it.. "You're not free to dictate that women must wear a hijab, because we are dictating they can't wear one."
However, this is only legislating public workplaces not everywhere, so it's less dictatey than Islam.
There have been plenty of efforts and attempts to ban hijabs completely, in different European countries at different times. The debate started probably around the time the first Islamicimmigrants came to Europe.
The problem is that you have to treat religion equally and for a lot of European countries that would mean pushing Christian symbols out of public offices as well. Most Nordic countries, Greece and Malta have crosses on their flags for example. Many countries like Germany have parties, which are explicitly Christian. The Bundeswehr uses the Iron Cross as a symbol, which is in direct heritage from a crusader order.
The problem for those countries is that baning Islamic symbols is very often just racist rethoric to hit Islam, rather then a proper separation of state and religion.
It would be religionist, not racist. Islam is followed by many different races. But I get where you're coming from. I'm all for getting rid of all the religious symbolism etc.
I am interested, what exactly constitutes a "religious symbol" for you?
When the right talk about Islam they aren't talking about the religion. They have no problem with the Muslims from Kosovo for instance. They are specifically targeting Arabs and Africans.
Kosovars rarely wear hijabs though. Same goes for Bosnians and Albanians and many Lebanese, Egyptian and Syrian Muslims. So not it isnt about race.
So what? Kosovans are good Muslims because they dress like us? They're your Muslim friend so you're totally not racist against the African and Arab Muslims? Fuck off. It's a dog whistle and you know it.
No, you were the one brought up Arabs and Africans. You are the one stereotyping Arabs and Africans as the only Muslims who wear headscarves just to further your argument.
No one here has issues with Arabs or Africans. Headscarves and crosses are just inappropriate for public sector workplaces as they are supposed to be neutral and unbiased in secular societies.
You're ignoring the context of why I brought it up. Right wingers who complain about religious hair dresses don't give a shit about someone wearing a cross on their necklace. They know they can't go after people because of race so they use Islam as a backdoor.
But I am not a right winger. I believe in a secular society, public administration should be religiously neutral and that means no one gets special privileges. Also I have rarely ever seen muslim Africans wear headscarves aside from Somalis. Usually when I think of headscarves, I think of Turks, Chechens or people from the Arabian Peninsula.
Religious seculation also means no oppression based on religion. It's a double edged sword. I'm not saying you are right wing but I am pointing out that right wing demagogues go after Islam. Especially in countries with strong hate speech laws.
Certain restrictions in public sector workplaces arent oppression though. Especially the rules apply to everyone. Its just like certain dress codes are in place such as no street shoes, no revealing clothing and no visible tattoos. If people want to wear religious symbols outside of a government job, they are within their own right and I will protect that right. I also support people being allowed to wear religious symbols in private sector jobs as long as they abide by safety codes (there are forms of hijab and sikh head coverings that abide by safety standards for heightened danger workplaces).
Most Nordic countries, Greece and Malta have crosses on their flags for example.
Those crosses don't carry any religious meaning, they're simple historical artifacts. It's akin to how I still say things like "oh my god" or "go to hell", despite being a militant atheist.
Denmark, Iceland, Greece and Malta have some form of Christianity as their state religion. Norway only separated church from the state in 2017. Finland requires a change of the constitution to change the church law, which gives the local lutheran church special rights. Sweden is secular since 2000, but even today grants the local lutheran church special rights.
Because banning something so petty like a hijab is just a dick move which serves no purpose other than cause more tension, if any women is wearing something by her choice, who the fuck are we to judge? Isn’t that the whole point of tolerance and being left wing?
I would hardly put a hijab in the category of 'by her choice'...
I agree that forcing them is a problem, but a lot of these women themselves complained to the authorities, so i doubt in this particular case they are being forced, and how does outright banning it help the issue? People are forced to work with poor wages, why not ban all jobs?
It's only banning in the workplace, not an outright ban.
There are plenty of Muslim females I have worked with who never wore a hijab in or outside of work, so if it's no issue for them, why should it be an issue for these women?
How does it help the issue though, I have no idea.
I think you are missing my point here or yourself are confused, wearing a hijab these days in a modern society is very likely a choice, if a muslim women choses not to, it’s her decision
But banning it and calling it a religious symbol on top of that is a clear statement that they don’t support a personal harmless decision of an individual BECAUSE they follow a religion, and that in my opinion is just racism
And even a slightly controversial take of mine is that we shouldn’t really ban religious symbols either as long as they are not harmful, why would any sane person care if they see a women with a hijab or a burka? Or a person wearing a cross? No one unless they just don’t like anyone whose beliefs or ideology or opinion don’t match with them. The only thing these kinds of laws will do is potentially radicalize more people
The thing is we can’t bring all of humanity on an agreement on even a small issue, let alone something as complex as religion, however what we could do is try to set apart our differences and focus on the overall good for us. This law however is just a step in the opposite direction
It’s only banning in the workplace, not an outright ban.
Well, it’s a first step, isn’t it? The more Europeans don’t give a shit about freedom and democracy, the more we vote for rightwing extremists, the more we will be ready to put a crescent on the clothing of Muslims, don’t you think so.
Who would fight for their freedom, you?
so if it’s no issue for them, why should it be an issue for these women?
Because women are individuals, even Muslim women, who would have thought.
And we’re living in a culture that celebrates itself for protecting the freedom and the rights of the individuals.
Sounds kind of crazy, doesn’t it?
And who are you to tell what’s other people choices and what not. That’s unbelievably arrogant.
Wearing jeans (or any other iconic piece of clothing) isn't your choice, it's just normal where you grew up. You just adapted to the culture you live in. You're just a conformist. Or a 'Spießer' as we say in German.
And this probably isn't limited to dress codes. How about ideas, ideologies, worldviews different from yours?
If Muslim women no longer wore headscarves because they weren't allowed to, how would you recognize the oppressed people you want to "liberate".
See, now I know you either just didn't read it or didn't understand. It applies to all religious symbols, not just a hijab. Can you argue it's unfair to non western religions like the above commenters? Yes and probably should. But what you said is wrong. They are not "banning something so petty like the hijab".
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread"
They are.., no other religion really has something like this like one of the comments here said,
almostall cases are about hijabsAlso how tf is hijab a ‘religious symbol’ anyway? It’s just a piece of clothing which is no different than those caps you find in jackets or hoodies
I see no point in doing something so stupid like this, why not ban cigarettes instead of discriminating for wearing a piece of clothing?
Edit: kinda misunderstood your comment, you called them out for discriminating non western religions, sorry its 4AM and i am cranky AF
There's a rather considerable current of leftism that is libertarian. Over-regulation of what a person can do, especially with something as, well, personal as appearance, is at odds with left-libertarian values.
Left-authoritarianism is of course compatible with such regulations.
Almost like left ideologies are more complex than an just a yes or no, huh?
Wait until you notice they change over time as they evolve with society.