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I'm cool with that, but folks should also remember this:
yeah I'm forever voting blue no matter who. The republican candidate will always be a fascist. It will never end with Trump. It's going to be fascist vs not fascist blue vote and I will eat whatever shit the blue vote shits out. More cops? I'm all for it, not a fascist dictator. Support Israel? Fine with me, not a fascist dictator. It sucks but that's just America now for the next thousand or so years, fascism or something else. Better hope the something else isn't closer to fascism than before or else you're fucked.
If the Dems keep winning the Republicans will have to slide left. It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction).
When that happens, and Trump is not literally attempting to end democracy using project 2025, the plan of strong-arming the dem candidate into being more left is plenty feasible, and the risks are less dire.
It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction)
This happened after Labour's entrenched power groups vigorously sabotaged Corbyn. Corbyn committed a somewhat serious blunder during Brexit, but he still had Labour well in the direction of defeating the Tories, and that might have happened earlier if his most spiteful opponents hadn't been inside his own party.
Thats not going to happen. The small handful of swing states will dictate a pattern of both parties steadily and we'll just keep going lower. Im sorry but there's zero chance the US doesn't elect enough republicans for them to be forced to change policy. They're making gains.
Maybe I'm just risk averse, but handing your country over to a fascist dictator sounds like the wrong solution.
I'm not saying to stop pressuring Biden in other ways, just not the borderline suicidal ones
Way too much sense. We're gonna have to drown this out with a gallon of troll farm.
Ah yes, that time several years ago when the dems won last election, the republicans responded by "sliding left". When the dems win 2024 the republicans will also be very civilized and non violent and slide even further left. Non-whites and LGBT people everywhere in America will be safer the night Joe Biden is elected than the night before, you heard it here from HauntedCupcake first!
You mostly don't see it because they win inconsistently by a narrow margin. It would totally happen if the republicans weren't so popular and the Dems kept winning. Hence the hypothetical.
The main issue is convincing the populace, but my point is more that the US has a way out of fascism, the public just need to recognise and want it
You acknowledge that you're voting for a slightly slower descent into fascism but that you'll continue to do so?
As opposed to a faster descent? Yes absolutely.
So your solution to avoiding fascism is to never lose an election?
My solution is to exercise my right to vote.
Yes, by all means, exercise your right to vote as you see fit. But if the only way we can avoid fascism is by never losing an election, shouldn't we be seeking better ideas and stronger protections from fascism now before that plan fails?
If you don't vote you're not a part of the conversation. You obviously don't have any grasp on how the election process works anyways, so why are you even keyboard warrioring this at all?
Go back to playing music, Jesse.
Perhaps engage with mutual respect. I do vote. I vote in every election. I'm also very aware of how US politics work.
Then you should know that to move things left, you need to vote more local progressives.
People don't start out going for the presidency (and they shouldn't, as the obvious recent mistake of a president shows).
Slowing down fascism provides opportunity for progressive politicians to make moves in the right direction, and take positions that are higher up the ladder.
Allowing a nose dive to fascism prevents the progressive folks from having an opportunity.
In short - yes, slowing it down is good enough at the presidential level.
So, what do you think will happen if you continue to encourage people who dislike both candidates to abstain from voting?
One of the two candidates will win, and one of the two candidates will take office in January. Hopefully they are both the same person.
It sucks that the choice is "who is less bad". But that's US politics for you. Not voting for the less bad is not going to make anything better.
I'm not saying that either. I told you to use your right how you see fit. It is not my place to tell you how to vote, nor is it my place to negatively pressure strangers into voting for my preference. I think everyone should vote. I'm also saying that promising votes to politicians regardless of their actions indicate that their actions won't hurt their chances.
I'm not sure what mutual respect you're referencing. If it's the kind you've been putting forth then I'm right there with you, and you have nothing to complain about.
If you're just saying "no fair!" then too bad, there no fairness in life. That's reality.
What elections exactly have you voted in?
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You have a good point. Obviously we should vote for it to happen faster rather than try to use the slow descent to fix things.
Anyone that wants to accelerate things has never lived in the kind of world that they're advocating for.
I had a teacher in school that was a Bosnian Muslim during the genocide of the Balkan wars. She, her older brother, and her mom made it out. I never heard her talk about her dad, so I don't think that he did. She and her older brother would practice their drawing by the light of burning tires. The eventually escaped to England, and then got asylum in the US.
That's what we're trying to avoid.
I wonder how many accelerationists around here are fascists/explodingheads users. Fascists don't fear the prospect of pretending to be something they aren't if it means furthering their agenda.
They're not afraid of posing as, say, a disenfranchised, discouraged and disillusioned left-winger who believes both sides are bad and there's no future except revolution.
They're not afraid to post about how "Genocide Joe" is funding genocide in Gaza while neglecting to point out how "Totalitarian Trump" would send B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza and the West Bank until nothing is left.
They're not afraid to point out how red states are still succeeding in trampling over LGBT rights under Biden while also ignoring how Trump would almost certainly push for that nation-wide.
They'll cry about our current supreme court justices while ignoring that Trump was the one who put those justices in power to begin with.
To be clear, I think the US is pretty far from saving and that it'll take a miracle to save this country from ruin. However, I'd rather see the country collapse slowly and in a relatively controlled manner that gives people time to prepare for its demise; while also giving people time to attempt to patch and fix the holes.
Revolution is high risk, high reward; if the left-wing wins, then you might get the socialist utopia you've always dreamed of. However, what if the right-wing wins? Yanno, the people with the majority of privately owned guns in the US. What if they win?
A Trump presidency means your leftist revolution against a fascist government will almost certainly be opposed by both rednecks and the US military.
However, if the fascists revolt during a Biden presidency, then the military will likely be backing you.
In the event of armed revolution, the president, whether it's Biden or Trump, will use the military to protect and reinforce their power. With Trump, opposition to his power will be coming from the left, so that's who the military will target. With Biden, the opposition will come from the right, and so the military will target them instead.
Of course, that doesn't mean you'll get the leftist utopia you've always dreamed, but at least you'll remove a lot of fascists from the equation. Removing those fascists means it'll be easier for the country to swing to the left and stay there. It won't happen overnight, but the result would likely be a government far more stable than if you tried to burn everything down and start over from scratch.
The reason why I say all this is because I feel that we are closing in on a revolution. Something is about to snap, and it will happen either during the elections or soon after. As such, you really, really don't want Trump, because Trump means you'll be fighting against the biggest, most well-funded and technologically equipped military in the world.
The air is tense and electric, filled with gasoline fumes and heated by our exhaust. The masses are shuffling to and from their workplaces, burned-out and overworked. They are struggling to afford rent, afford food, afford sleep and water. Static electricity is building on their shuffling bodies, and soon a spark will leap from an outstretched finger, igniting the air and bathing the US in fire.
I hope I'm wrong.
I agree. Although I'm not as pessimistic as you are, I truly believe that the US can become a socialist country, I'm young though 😅
I hadn't considered some right wing bigots would be on here and was arguing with ppl. Thx! :)
Yeah, I'll admit that I'm pretty jaded and cynical when it comes to politics and the future of humanity. I'm not all that old either, but I'm old enough to remember how it seemed like life was getting better until Trump took office, and how much the US tumbled as a result.
I'm old enough to remember when being left or right wing was a debate and not a fight between competing "truths"; and how the US left and right wing were sometimes willing to compromise on issues instead of fighting a culture war where they try and see how badly they can fuck up the US and still successfully blame the other party.
I'm old enough to remember when people typically trusted the news and science; and conspiracy theorists were amusing nutjobs at best, harmless annoyances at worst.
I'm old enough to remember when the idea of a Christian theocracy in the US was considered insane by anyone except the most extreme conservatives; while militias were something only domestic terrorists and the most extreme political radicals supported.
And I'm honestly, not that old. I just... I've watched the downward spiral and it seems like no one in power actually wants to stop it, which is why I've become so jaded and cynical. It's why I think revolution is coming, and I'm just hoping that the political ideology I'm aligned with won't be forced into fighting a losing war against the US military.
That's why I think people should support Biden. No, he's not a good person, and I don't think he honestly has the best interests of America and the rest of the world in mind. Sure, he's tried to do some good things like (unsuccessfully) forgiving student loans multiple times and showing support for America's unions, however he's still enabling Israel's genocide and he's still beholden to the corporations that fund his party (which means he'll avoid real changes whenever possible). Yet, if Biden gets elected and the American right-wing revolts (I'm convinced they'll try), then the US military will be fighting them, not us. If Trump gets elected then there may not even be a chance for revolution before cops start kicking people's doors down.
Tee hee
I would agree with you, but who's working on fixing things? It's looking close this time, and the historical pattern is that the Presidency flips parties when an incumbent can't run. What's the plan so we can ensure that a GQP authoritarian doesn't win in 2028? This was the talking point in 2020, and very little happened; Biden's AG even waited almost 3 years to appoint a special counsel, only after being buffaloed into it by the House January 6th committee, virtually ensuring that there trial will be delayed until after the election. And there's still no action whatsoever to hold Bush administration officials accountable.
The plan is delay fascism while building networks for a communist revolution.
Or just GTFO of the country if you're queer/nonwhite/disabled, and buy as much time as possible for the refugees to escape.
I've asked the question "what's the plan to stop fascism in 2028?" several times now, with no other response, so I guess the answer is, "pull off a communist revolution in just 4 years."
You know what is definitely not fixing it? Reassuring the Dems at every step that they will have your vote no matter what, as long as they are only slightly better than the Reps. Actually it is directly encouraging them to be at their possible worst.
Think of politicians as children and you as their parent. Do you think "reaffirm your child that no matter what it does, it will always get its favorite dessert" is a good parenting strategy? You raise egocentric psychopaths this way and this is exactly what you are getting as politicians.
That's what the primary is for.
If you have a dem that no longer aligns with your interests, you vote them out during the primary.
But then you show up during the general, hold your nose, and vote Democrat.
Want to know why?
Because the Republicans will vote Republican no matter what and we've unfortunately pushed our democracy to the point where we either vote for the somewhat okay guy or the guy that will bite your face off.
Yes, the dnc money machine is definitely allowing that. /s
I'm not noticing any part of "I'll accept anything" that's particularly conducive to fixing things
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Hear me out...
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Invent time machine
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?
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The candidate I want most gets elected.
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And 5 month ago it was double that time and people already screamed that pointing out that an alternative to two genocidal geriatrics is needed were screamed down as being Trump puppets.
We already wasted half of that time to find a solution with people being vigorously opposed to demanding a solution as they are afraid to lose the status quo.
Cmon dude, we can read your history.
People are not calling you a Trump puppet because you criticise Biden. People are arguing with you because you think not voting is a solution that Democrats are actually affected by.
By not voting, you just ensure the person you want the least to be in office wins (Trump). There's plenty of shills trying to discourage people from voting with that rhetoric. Republicans only win when dems don't show up.
I am not saying not to vote. I am saying not to vote Dems if the Dems dont stop the genocide. So vote third party or better yet pressure the Dems now to stop the genocide, so they can be voted for.
The last one is the best option. But it only works if they understand that you are serious about it and will not vote for them no matter what.
The political cycle is not 10 months long. Or 24. Or 48.
If you want change, you need to be involved in pushing over a large number of heavy objects over a long period of time. No one candidate, no one election, is going to change anything.
Because your damn country isn't "descending into fascism", it's been bathing in it for centuries, and every time there's someone trying to lift y'all kicking and screaming out of it just a little bit, the totalitarians crop up to try and self-destruct it all. Then, suddenly, a bunch of you come out of the woodwork to declare that it's better to blow it all up, actually, than to do literally anything to stop it, because you believe there should be a quick and easy solution, and everyone else around you is just an idiot for not seeing it.
But you only believe that because you're some kind of self-important, hubris-huffing sucker.
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Declare to the Dems "I'll only vote you, if you stop genocide, internment camps and start taxing the rich properly." Then follow through with it. Already saying you dont want to follow through with it is telling them, that they dont need to listen to you. This is the only language they understand. Ideally look into organizing for a third party, so the Dems can be overtaken by a better third party which can take their place in the political system. The DNC has proven time and time again that they will be authoritarian and undemocratic to ensure no actually progressive candidate to make it into their leadership.
I hate Biden, and I do think that voting isn't going to solve our problems, but do you really think that NOT voting is going to solve our problems? Democrats know that they're always going to me more left than the Republicans, which will be enough for most people, and that very few people are going to try holding out for leftward change that could've been voted in during the primaries but wasn't.
What we need to do is vote for Biden to prevent Trump from destroying the country in 2 weeks flat, then actually force change. Voting works great when the system works, but it's been broken for a while - we need real action now, up to and including a revolution if need be.
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Who did you vote for last year?
The year before?
It is less than five months to the election. Please provide us with an alternative. Happy to hear you out. If you don’t have one then cool, no harm no foul and I’ll be voting Biden in November.
Floor’s yours dude.
It's more than yes/no to fascism.
In a democratic political party you can influence the politics democratically. In a fascist party: Not possible.
The country does not need to hit rock bottom before it can improve. It can be changed democratically from within if you allow it to by voting for anything but the party that will take away that possibility.
Why would the democratic party listen to anything you have to say if they know you'll vote for them regardless?
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Clinton lost 2016 in part because people were unhappy with her over Sanders
Because of primaries
You need to go take a civics class and stop trying to suppress the leftwing vote. Do you expect anyone to sit down and explain to you how campaigning for issues works? Do you expect us to list every decent win "the left" has gotten the last 5-10 years?
What have you gotten accomplished? What have you even participated in?
Just because you sit in a basement unplugged from reality, doomscrolling, doesn't mean the rest of should sit here and take advice from you. You admit you just want fascism faster.
Bad-faith, accelerationist, useful idiot. If it weren't so cliche I'd call you Vlad.
That was a lot of words to not even attempt to answer a very simple question
Bad-faith, accelerationist
I like the self awareness displayed by calling me bad faith and then immediately reiterating the thing you just made up about me and decided was true based on what seems to be a deliberately bad interpretation of my original comment.
🤡
🐴🤠
How do you think a political party comes up with ideas in the first place?
You're just an accelerationist. Fatalism, nihilism, apathy, hopeless, etc aren't anything new, most of us disagree with you. I wonder if your outlook would improve if you got therapy or if you had a little skin in the game and stood to lose something.
If they were an accelerationist, wouldn't they be voting for Trump?
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Not necessarily.
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Who says they aren't?
Not necessarily
Why not? You're claiming they're operating on a principle of trying to accelerate collapse, and that Trump is the candidate to do that. But this is completely inconsistent with what the person is saying they'll do. It doesn't explain their behavior.
Who says they aren’t?
So we're just making things up whole cloth about people now?
It's cute of you to step in to defend your alt account, but you can't be serious.
They're an accelerationist, for whatever reason, they want collapse. The quicker it happens the better, they admitted as much above.
You're supposing that Trump is the candidate to do that, I think most of lemmy would agree with you so I'll cede that point.
That point ceded, we can agree most of lemmy won't vote for Trump right? So what would be the point of talking about voting Trump here? It's far more effective for the accelerationist (who likely isn't conservative anyway) to be a "leftist" who's so disgusted with how corrupt and unfair the system is they simply just check out and encourage others to check out as well, "both sides are the same" of course.
So we're just making things up whole cloth about people now?
We're inferring things, it's quite a bit different comrade.
It’s cute of you to step in to defend your alt account, but you can’t be serious.
Lmao.
Is there anything that could possibly falsify any of your evidence-free "inferences?"
You seem to be trying to solve this like social deduction games, but I don't think this is a correct or good thing to do
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Yes the point of my comment was that I want fascism faster well done
The little bit you have actually said has indicated that and you have done absolutely nothing to refute it so my advice is that sarcasm only works when the targeted recipient of it has been shown you would only say it sarcastically.
In what world would any person make that argument ?
Assuming you're not voting...
Do you acknowledge that you're voting for a coin toss between a slower descent or a faster descent into fascism? Averaging out to you being in favor of an even faster descent into fascism than the person you replied to?
That's not what not voting is, no
Do you acknowledge that voting for a candidate enacting bad policies is voting for those bad policies
Yes but not voting for that candidate is effectively just like voting for the other even worse guy.
I mean we both know that Biden ain't great, but Trump? Trump is far fuckXng worse! Don't like the genocide ? Biden is wayyyyyy more likely to sign a ceasefire than Trump. Want Trans Rights? Biden doesn't care, Trump wants to remove them. I'd rather have Biden's apathy than Trump's hate.
There is a Contrapoints video abt this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Vah8sUFgI
Contrapoints didn't make that video in the context of a genocide.
You know what would force Biden to provide actually decent politics? If people demanded them and withhold their vote otherwise. And you know who would rather want Trump to win, than provide adequate protection of human rights, including Trans rights? Joe Biden, the guy you want to vote for. The DNC and him are laughing their asses off together with the Reps that no matter what, you will keep letting them get away with it.
So you're willing to risk letting Trump win AGAIN just so you can own Biden? Like honey no... watch the video it explains it much better than I do.
The one risking Trump to win again is Biden. And he does so because he doesnt give a fuck about protecting you or anybody else. If you remove yourself from the power of punishing a politician and will always reward him no matter what, you are removing your own democratic power. It is not about "owning" Biden. It is about taking your power and sovereignity, that you are supposed to have in a Democracy. By giving them the blanket check, you are surrendering yourself to them and encourage them to do their worst. And make no mistake. The Dems will start cracking down on LGBT people if they think that to be necessary to gain votes in some states.
The one risking Trump to win again is Biden.
Well what are you going to do about it?! As far as I know there is nothing you could do to change that before November. If you vote for Biden now you get 4 more years where you're free to protest as much as you want, because contrary to Trump, Biden is likely to be receptive to your protests. We are not powerless.
And even if we were, what would happen? You don't vote for Biden -> Trump wins -> the whole country shifts even more into conservative ideologies -> you don't vote democrat again -> same thing but worse.
you are removing your own democratic power
Ok I see your point but not voting is like not even using that power and if you read my previous point you can see how your democratic power will go even lower if you don't do anything.
Now is the time to riot.
There is other parties on the ballot too. Definetely people should be voting, but they shouldnt vote Dems if the Dems continue genocide. Imagine there is 20% Green vote all of a sudden. Then Dems will be scared shitless and know that they have to work to win back those voters because the next election it might be that the "two parties" will be Green and Reps instead.
But better yet apply the pressure now and go demonstrate, talk to your representatives, take union action against the genocide...
So what do you suppose we do? Start a revolution against the biggest military on earth? I believe America needs to stop having a two party system, this way there is more chance someone like Bernie gets elected. But alas who will vote for them...
Tell Biden to either stop the bullshit or not get your vote and mean it, for instance by backing it up with demonstrations.
And then?
I already said this somewhere else but please vote, not voting for Biden is essentially like voting for Trump. And once Biden is in you can be as mad as you want against him, protest and shit, because Biden might actually listen, Trump would never.
because Biden might actually listen,
Why would he listen if he knows he can have your vote regardless
No, it's not "essentially like voting for Trump". It's voting for the person you voted for. What is the fundamental difference between voting for Biden and voting for a different candidate in the event of a Trump victory? There is none. Do not shame the voters. Shame the politicians into acting in a way deserving of leadership.
So what if voting blue will end up with innocent people dying? Their sacrifice for my freedom will not go without honor. I will enshrine their lives with a statue commemorating their bravery in the fight for my freedom. The lives of innocent trans people, black people, and Palestinian children is a steep cost but it's one I'm willing to spend for me to go to Starbucks and get a latte for $9. Who's to say my life is worth more than theirs? Well Joe Biden made that determination for us, so I believe that's right! I'm glad it's a bunch of random black and brown people getting blown to bits for my right to vote, not me!
Consider that endorsing an awful candidate in Biden will help get Trump elected.
How the hell did you come to that idiotic conclusion?
- You dont even like your candidate, why should i come to your side instead of you come to mine?
Because one stands a chance of winning, the other does not.
whichever side we support stands a chance of winning. They aint gonna compete in a game of skill in November, they're gonna ask us who wins and we decide.
Yes, "we", consisting of statistically significant factions of the voting population. Campaigns take time and money, neither of which any candidates besides the two front-runners have enough of to be competitive. They're not gonna ask you who wins, you don't decide. I don't see 70 million Americans shifting to anyone else at this stage.
you've got a paradox going where me supporting a better candidate is pointless because my vote is worth nothing and I cant change anything.
but also that I have to support your candidate because my vote matters if its for them.
my vote matters and I'm giving it to a better candidate.
Is it a paradox to say that driving in circles around a roundabout is pointless because it doesn't get you anywhere, but driving along the route to a destination does? Driving is driving, does it work or not? Paradox! Smearing food on your belly doesn't satisfy your hunger, but eating it does. Does food satisfy hunger or not? Paradox!
If we had approval or ranked choice voting, voting third party would accomplish something. Since we have First Past the Past elections, voting third party is as effective as smearing food on your belly or circling a roundabout for hours.
Its pretty irritating everytime someone brings up ranked choice voting. They know its a good thing, they want it to happen. But its getting brought up to try and criticize my choice of candidate. You want ranked choice voting? You know who supports ranked choice voting in their election platform? My candidate! I am well aware of how shit FPTP voting is, Im not the one promoting it.
Don't forget that it's not ok to vote for your candidate because they don't already have enough support, therefore there's no way to ever reach the threshold where it'll be ok to vote for them.
It's only ok to vote for the neolibs that the billionaires approve after a promise that nothing's really going to change.
Even in a state that's so blue the Dems have no chance of losing, voting for or writing in someone left of the incumbent will still be deemed a vote for the red team.