politics @lemmy.world silence7 @slrpnk.net 5 mo. ago

Trump told donors he will crush pro-Palestinian protests, deport demonstrators | Speaking to wealthy donors behind closed doors, he said that he supports Israel’s right to continue “its war on terror.

wapo.st Trump told donors he will crush pro-Palestinian protests, deport demonstrators

The former president has publicly waffled on the Israel-Gaza war. But he told wealthy donors he supports Israel’s right to continue “its war on terror.”

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But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
- Of course Trump is worse.
  
  Now let's not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let's not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn't that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu's genocide because they're worried it makes Biden look bad.
  
  And let's not pretend that the US isn't a two-party system.
  
  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
  
  And I'm voting for Biden.
  
  No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
  
  Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
  
  One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
  
  Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
  
  Answer: absolutely not.
  
  Your comment should read "One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit"...
  
  But it doesn't.
  
  This whole thing of "you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side" thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn't fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you've been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn't. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
  
  Nothing beside remains.
  
  My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
  
  I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven't paid attention into thinking that Biden isn't floating in am Olympic sized pool of children's blood. I'm not saying Trump will do any better, and I'm not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
  
  I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
  
  Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
  
  Nothing beside remains.
  
  So willing to make claims, but way more willing to run away when called to stand up for them. If you start trying to make honest claims, then this wouldn't happen, instead you would be glad to back them up.
  
  Edit: typo
  
  "You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to."
  
  So no, thanks. I don't owe you a defense, engagement, or an policy apologetics treatment of the current administration's governance for the last four years. There are plenty of places to find that information if you actually care to find it.
  
  So far you've managed to call me an idiot, a liar, and a coward in all of about fifteen minutes. Why on earth would I believe you're capable of nuanced political discourse? We've nothing to discuss.
  
  You could just say you have no criticism after all.
  
  I could, but that wouldn't be true. I'll tell you the same thing I told the other sockpuppet: you're not entitled to an argument just because you ask for one.
  
  That is not at all what's happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
  
  I'm not campaigning for Trump.
  
  @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied. Don't engage with this twat he's a bad faith actor and a terrible one at that. A verified chucklefuck.
  
  @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
  
  Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
  
  I guess you're conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
  
  Btw I'm STILL waiting on that answer.
  
  Just reviewed those threads. It's no where near as clear cut as you describe here. Your comment comes off pretty creepy, kinda stalkery
  
  Dude followed me into c/tenforward tryin' to start shit.
  
  Yeah like, I'm not gonna say I agree with your stance on everything. But to follow people around is the lamest thing ever. Someone did that to me months ago and eventually got banned. Super creepy.
  
  I'd say just block em. I think they won't see you either then?
  
  Or I suppose you could change the subject instead, yeah.
  
  Keep lowering that bar, champ.
  
  Removed, civility.
  
  Oh I know. Trust me, I don't engage with these people with any illusions. There's no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
  
  Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
  
  No he doesn't. He wouldn't be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
  
  I did not mention Biden's opinion regarding the protestors.
  
  Yes, that's why it's important someone did mention it.
  
  Yes, it's vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn't say.
  
  You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
  
  Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don't say.
  
  And thank god I have whatever you are to try to call me a centrist derisively.
  
  Permanently Deleted
  
  Let’s pretend about that world…
  
  As trump gasses these folks…
  
  But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
  
  spoiler
  
  asdfasfasfasfas
  
  Vote for Biden, of course. There's no better choice, to my utter dismay.
  
  spoiler
  
  asdfasfasfasfas
  
  Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
  
  Congratulations.
  
  spoiler
  
  asdfasfasfasfas
  
  Sorry. I'm coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
  
  I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu's genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
  
  If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
  
  spoiler
  
  asdfasfasfasfas
  
  I understand that but right now what do you want me to do about it?
  
  I don't know.
  
  Really and truly. I’ve written my reps, I’ve stood with protestors, I’ve been very vocal about my feelings re: Israel’s horrific retaliation
  
  I get that. I live in Texas. Writing to my rep and senators results in a form letter thanking me for agreeing with them (contrary to the content of my letter), followed by fundraising mailers.
  
  We are discussing an election in November between Trump and Biden, right? So what do I do with that?
  
  Only thing to do is vote for Biden and take a really long shower afterwards.
  
  Trump will make it objectively worse for Palestinians. So I will vote Biden.
  
  Likewise. I fear that absent change on Biden's part, he will lose anyway.
  
  Likewise. I fear that absent change on Biden's part, he will lose anyway.
  
  This is the really important part the enlightened centrists and blue MAGA in this thread are ignoring, much to their own peril if they’re to be believed. Biden does actually suck. His outmoded policies are so unpopular, his campaign so devoid of energy, that him losing come November is virtually guaranteed. He’s down in polling in every swing state but one. I know it must be very embarrassing to the card carrying democrats, the prospect of losing to the criminal traitor Trump. But if Biden doesn’t change course drastically and immediately, it’s going to happen. And most importantly - it won’t be the fault of the voters who point to his shortcomings in public discourse. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Biden and the DNC for not allowing any alternative whatsoever.
  
  So considering that, thank you @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world for speaking truth to power in such a hostile landscape. Hopefully it doesn’t completely fall on old, deaf ears.
  
  So what are you going to do about it?
  
  Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I've said this more than a few times already.
  
  This is the way
  
  The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don't support the protesters are quite rare.
  
  Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they've killed, and the land they've stolen.
  
  It's clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
  
  Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don't know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
- let's ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
  
  If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
  
  Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
  
  Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
  
  If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don't know what to tell you.
  
  you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe "Im a Zionist" Biden gives them?
  
  If that's your best option, that's what you have to do.
  
  This is how logic and critical thinking work.
  
  Can you provide a better alternative?
  
  I'd say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
  
  She's not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
  
  The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
  
  sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
  
  If you think that's how elections currently work in the United States, nothing I can say will help you.
  
  For a 3rd party candidate to be viable, there would need to be enormous system changes or a very successful write in campaign.
  
  I would love for other candidates to be an option, but that's currently not the case.
  
  For a 3rd party candidate to be viable...people literally just need to vote for them. She gonna be on the ballot for me to put a check by and everything.
  
  And what percent of the vote will she get and why?
  
  By all means agitate for a better voting system. But until you have something other than FPP voting third party will do the opposite of what you want. This is a well known paradox of FPP, it has been well studied
  
  Im voting for a better voting system. Jill also has ranked choice voting as a campaign platform. I think you'll have a better chance trying to convince Trump supporters to join Zionist Biden's campaign than me, and with much better returns on your goal of not electing Trump.
  
  In FPP voting far left supports the RW candidate. That's the paradox and that's just math. Your feelings on the matter don't change that unfortunately
  
  Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
  
  she's not a russian asset. this is libel.
  
  edit
  
  have fun with this comment chain. it's a wild ride.
  
  If that were the case, wouldn't she have sued?
  
  you think she can use every internet commenter? when someone lies about you, you run right to your lawyer?
  
  No, if it were libel, there wouldn't be articles posted about it.
  
  You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
  
  The "Best Option" placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
  
  2016:
  
  Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
  Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
  Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
  Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%
  
  2020:
  
  Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
  Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
  Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
  Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%
  
  Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
  
  Yeah, more people should be voting for her.
  
  Then trump would win for sure
  
  Yeah probably, everyone seems to either be voting for Trump so he can kill more brown folks, or voting for the guy currently genociding brown folks to stop trump from killing them. End result's the same, im not voting for either of em.
  
  She's an anti science quack who has perpetuated global warming through her nuclear fear mongering. And that's nothing to say of her vaccine skepticism. Nor hobnobbing with capitalist oligarchs who make US CEOs look like socialists.
  
  Nuclear waste is its own environmental beast.
  
  Skepticism is fine, and im assuming youre talking about the singular photo of her visiting Russia. She is running for president, even Bidens made Russia visits as a candidate
  
  Great thing we have reactor technologies now that can reprocess the waste into fuel.
  
  Breeder reactors would quite literally let us reduce existing nuclear waste while generating energy. But Stein has no interest in that. It should tell you a lot about where her actual beliefs lie.
  
  And I forgot to mention, she also said that Wifi causes cancer. She's closer to Trump than she is Biden.
  
  I don't think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that's what you're referencing
  
  She is
  
  Based on this article, I think they'd want Biden.
  
  There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it's clear which of the two you should vote for.
  
  If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
  
  I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he'd only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
- So genocide vs more genocide. I know which one I'm voting for.
  
  Biden
- Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
  
  So makes sense why some would say that
  
  Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or... anything.
  
  Take your time.
  
  In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
  
  And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
  
  Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
  
  So makes sense why some would say that
  
  The only reason it "makes sense" to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
  
  Yeah in response to
  
  But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
  
  Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
  
  The only reason it "makes sense" to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
  
  Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
  
  Again where did say anything about trump good?

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