Ukrainian Neo-Nazi mocks Auschwitz victims
Ukrainian Neo-Nazi mocks Auschwitz victims
Social media users have called out a member of a nationalist Ukrainian brigade for posting images that appear to praise Nazi genocide
A Ukrainian Neo-Nazi soldier visited the Auschwitz death camp wearing a shirt quoting Hitler in order to mock the camp's victims. This is the type of truly fascist scum that billions and billions of US taxpayer dollars are going to fund and arm.
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So let me get this straight: if I don't want to ethnically cleanse Palestinians I'm an anti-semite. But if I wear a camp auschwitz t-shirt while doing the roman salute, NATO will send me billions of dollars?
Pretty much.
Who wants to take on for the team? Wear a Nazi shirt to Auschwitz, take the billions of dollars of weapons, then immediately turn them over to Palestine? I hear Gaza could use some Patriot missiles and Javelins.
It's already happening. Arms meant for Ukraine end up in the hands of resistance fighters. Obviously corrupt Ukranians are selling the stuff they get to the black market.
This would be cool if true, got any sources to back this up?
I don't think that's been confirmed to be happening.
Russia gives weapons captured from AFU to Donbas militia, but idk if that person meant this.
I think they meant weapons from Ukraine ending up in Palestine, which hasn’t been proven AFAIK.
Some most likely did, but in hands of mecenaries Ukraine send there to fight for Is*ael. Otherwise never heard of it, but i would bet black market is full of it and especially after AFU ultimate rout there will be weapons from Ukraine everywhere.
Yes, because the weapons are sent directly to these guys so that they can use it to exterminate Jews. It's not like these are just people who happen to fight an imperialistic invader, while being a minority of Nazi pieces of shits that currently are shooting in the right direction, part of an army that has very little to do with nazis.
were they also shooting in the right direction when they were attempting to ethnically cleanse ukraine of uh.. ukrainians?
No. In fact I don't have any respect nor any sympathy for them. That said, today I rather have then dying to push back the invasion than Ukrainian civilians forced to join the army.
In either case, it's not like weapons are given to them to let them do what they would do if they were completely free (thankfully), so OP argument seems invalid to me. It's a disgrace that the West is not only not defending Palestine, but aiding Israel, but this doesn't make it automatically wrong to arm Ukrainians. It's not like they are not sending weapons to Gaza because they finished to send them to Ukraine.
incidentally, since you know so much about this, if the nazis are such a small irrelevant minority in ukraine's govt (and they're definitely not in power), why is it so hard to get pictures of ukrainian soldiers without nazi tattoos and nazi patches?
oh, and why is the government full of people like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Melnyk_(diplomat)
It's hard to get pictures of Ukrainian army without Nazi symbols? What...?
What does it mean "full", and who is that guy, what does it mean being "like" him?
Would you mind developing your arguments a little bit better? Are you claiming that the vast majority of people in Ukrainian army (which by now is made in good part by civilians conscripted) are actual nazis?
I know that in Ukraine there is a Nazi problem, and that it has also to do with history during WWII, but Nazi parties are still a super tiny minority (like Right Sector) and so are the Nazi battalions who got incorporated into the army. Is your argument that this is not a minority but a significant part or the majority?
i like your coy avoidance. dude's an open banderite. that's a nazi. that's what i mean when i say people like him.
so anyway, why did zelensky's totally not a nazi government pick a blatant nazi to be one of their ambassadors? why was he not fired and buried in a pit when he displayed his naziness to the whole world? why was he just recalled and sent to another country to continue to be a nazi ambassador?
this doesnt sound like a country that's on top of it's supposedly tiny nazi minority. a country that lets them shell the donbass for years, seemingly unable or unwilling to stop them. a country that seems to always picks nazis (tattoos, patches) for its army PR pictures.
oh, and there's this also to prove how tiny the nazi minority is in ukraine: 31% of them approve of bandera. 76% percent of those who live in western Ukraine have a positive opinion towards Bandera (https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7138).
Firsr, I skimmed the wikipedia article you linked and I couldn't find anything in particular you were referring to, so it's not avoidance, I am genuinely asking questions. Second, as you know, Banderism is a phenomenon which is much more complicated than just saying "Nazi". It is linked with nationalism ans movements to get independent from what (from their perspective) was an occupier. It's not so clear-cut as you are suggesting, where if you celebrate Bandera you are automatically a Nazi who supports Jew extermination and poles massacres.
Now, I don't know if this guy is an actual Nazi or " just" a nationalist, or something else, or what his story is and why he is in the government, but being a Banderist doesn't automatically translate to being a Nazi in the sense we give it in the west (oppression of minorities, antisemitism etc.).
So I guess I would challenge the foundation of your argument about the relationship between Bandera support and Nazism support. The more nationalists in Ukraine for sure see Bandera as a sort of "hero", but mostly due to the impact on Ukraine liberation, not due to the (brief) alliance with Nazis (which was also opportunistic). I am sure you will disagree here, but history is complicated, and trust me, I have to overcome some of my own bias as an Italian, which means I have obviously a completely different perspective of WWII history. I simply can't splash my own Western morality (based on our own shared history) on top of people and cultures that lived through a completely different history. So what you are saying to me sounds a complete simplification that disregards history and background for the population you are talking about.
a country that lets them shell the donbass for years
I definitely do not agree with Ukraine handling the Donbass question. That said, I hardly think that letting them shell donbass has to do with supporting Nazi views and not simply supporting the general goal of taking back control of occupied regions (we can discuss about Russian influence\russian sponsored coup\self determination of the people another time, here I am simply capturing the perspective of the Ukrainian government - right or wrong).
Get out here with your Bandera apologism.it's only nazism if it comes from the nazi region of germany, otherwise it's just sparkling genocidal fascism. got it.
Is that what you read? it feels like you are giving up the conversation.
On this topic BTW I suggest the essays from Ukrainian leftist and socialist Taras Bilous, for example https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article8493
I think that it helps expanding the perspective from a more "local" and eastern European point of view.
but Nazi parties are still a super tiny minority (like Right Sector) and so are the Nazi battalions who got incorporated into the army
lol, peak liberal brain. These heavily-armed Nazi groups are incorporated into the army and people don't vooooooooooot for them, surely they have no power.
Yes, but they are also very small in relative numbers. The point about the voting results has to do with the general feeling of the population. If someone claims that Nazism is basically mainstream culture, then it only makes sense to see that reflected into elected parties. It also makes sense if you are claiming that it's hard to find a soldier without Nazi symbols, because the army is now full of civilians.
Are you claiming that the Nazi groups now incorporated into the army have the power to actually take power by force, now that they have been armed? Based on what you are saying this? Why it didn't happen yet according to the analysis, since they are now armed for years?
Care to elaborate?
They basically already did in 2014 with US backing, see that one video where an Ukronazi is gloating about how even though all the Western media talked about was how Nazis were a minority in Euromaidan, without them it would've been ”like a gay parade” (his words).
Even if the Nazis are a relatively small portion of the population, they have lots of weapons and have been training (including indoctrinating children as reported by Western media) for years, it's not exactly far fetched to say they can use the threat of violence get their way.
Yes, I have seen that video (correct me if I am wrong, I remember the name of that group was some number sixty something).
Obviously it's hard to say how delusional that guy is vs how accurate his assessment was. But I have no problem imagining they had a role. But the coup/revolution of 2014 had huge population support, so to me it seems likely that their contribution has not been so impactful.
As I said (elsewhere possibly, at this point I don't have a clear overview of the comment chain), I don't exclude the possibility that such groups might eventually use force to take power. I think it's unlikely, first because lots of them died in the war, second because their ideology doesn't have much support in the population (talking about the actual Nazi views - kill Jews, kill minorities) who is instead westernizing (for good or for bad) and finally because as they have weapons and training, so does the regular army, while also being much bigger. I think that if a Nazi coup will happen, it will be because the effective power dynamics in the country changed and not the result of an armed coup.
If someone claims that Nazism is basically mainstream culture, then it only makes sense to see that reflected into elected parties
You do realize the parties "elected" are the one pushing Banderism and approving the incorporation of neo-nazi militias into high ranking positions in the police abd military, the fuckin Azov militias are literally a special forces bridgade now, you think that happens without goverment sanction? A party doesn't have to call itself the New Nazi Jew Killer party to be a nazi party, Zelensky's party is a nazi party
I addressed this in the past, trying to elaborate a bit on the nuances of Banderism as a phenomenon, but the comment was moderated. So I am sorry, I feel I can't engage into a conversation on this topic without wasting my time in a comment that is going to be deleted.
Azov militias are literally a special forces bridgade now, you think that happens without goverment sanction?
No, I think I have written elsewhere that they have been incorporated into the army, I am very aware that it happened with government approval and decision.
I don't think Zelensky party was also particularly Banderist, especially since he was a "russophile" candidate according to the Poroshenko voters, who are more nationalists.
It's hard to get pictures of Ukrainian army without Nazi symbols? What...?
Perhaps they mean things like
This
or this
or this
or this
or this
or maybe this
That Nazi minority seems to end up in front of Western news cameras a lot. Weird since those new agencies have an incentive to downplay the presence of far right elements in the Ukrainian military. It's almost like they're so embedded in their forces that war corespondents can't help but pick up a few dudes with SS tattoos
This discussion has already happened in a couple of comments down the chain FYI.
I will use the occasion to promote what I think is a very interesting interview to a Ukrainian socialist who is currently fighting in the army: https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article8493 While his essays are interesting, they obviously are just an example of the complexity of the reality of the war and of both sides. I found particularly interesting his discussion about how diverse is the set of people he is fighting with, including people who were in the anti-maidan ranks.
Now, if your argument is "all people in Ukrainian army are nazis", there is nothing I will ever be able to do to counter it, because you will always find some pictures of the actual nazis that exist, and you will just use it to draw your conclusions. So I will just leave here a link from a leftist perspective that I found interesting.
He has also written other essays, like I’m a Ukrainian Socialist. Here’s Why I Resist the Russian Invasion, published on Jacobin.
Just wanna say I skimmed it and that essay sucks ass, Jacobin has about a 90 percent miss rate on foreign affairs
Interesting, why do you say that? I find it culturally distant, but I think very good points were made.
No mention of the discrimination and shelling of civilians in the east by Ukrainian government. No mention of NATO aggression since the 90s against Russia. Serious usage of the word "authoritarian" as if this is a genuine political description. Stating that the west did not want this war (?? Wtf). Dismissing off hand in the first part the very real critiqures of Ukraine and NATO as Russian propaganda. The whole thing stinks of radliberalism.
He tries to position zelensky as a poor guy just caught between evil Russians and evil Nazis. Total bullshit. The only grain of truth is that yes, Nazis have many weapons and manpower in Ukraine. So why did Zelensky elevate them during those grand tours all around the world begging for international Patreon subscribers? These Nazis need to be liquidated, not appeased, and if Ukraine and the west is not up to the task (and why would they be? These Nazis are the only committed fighters they can throw against Russians) then Russia is going to do it. I say that as someone who does not like Putin, but as someone who can see the way that war is going.
This guy, even if he is genuine in being a "socialist" whatever he thinks that means, does not have the correct context to understand even his own involvement in this war. He comes off as basically a liberal in all his justifications but then puts a little red fig leaf over these wrong justifications by claiming to be a "leftist".
What's funny is that he mentions a "Ukrainian resistance". I'm sure this was written in the heady days of all those "Putler is finished!" and sanction flinging. Looking back from 2024, there is no resistance and never was. Ukrainians who could rightfully got the fuck out of the country, why would they stay to die for a government that never gave them shit?
And this part I have to laugh at, it shows how out of date even two years later this piece is.
Any Russian success would strengthen Vladimir Putin’s regime and its reactionary tendencies. It would not mean peace, but decades of instability, guerrilla resistance in the occupied territories, and recurrent clashes on the demarcation line. It would be a disaster not only for Ukraine but also for Russia, where a reactionary political drift would intensify and the economy would suffer from sanctions, with severe consequences for ordinary civilians.
It's true that there would be a guerilla war if Russia occupied ethnically Ukrainian parts of Ukraine. Especially if these Nazi groups are allowed to exist. And as of July 2024, that's not what they're doing. Second, I just have to laugh at the part mentioning sanctions, it just brings back quaint memories. The fact is, the Russian economy has neutered the threat of sanctions and is orienting itself eastward to the detriment of Europe. No more cheap energy for German factories. But don't worry, uncle Sam is there to help..
As for the idea of a Ukrainian resistance mentioned there. I live in a place that recieved quite a few Ukrainians and work with a handful. To paraphrase what they've all said to me: "the country was fucked before 2022, with all the corruption and attending ills that come with kowtoing to the neoliberal/western order. We're not gonna die for that, and we're never going back." So between the attitudes of the diaspora, and the fact that the only way for the Ukrainian army to replenish it's manpower is by snatching people with trucks, I have to just laugh at the idea of a Ukrainian resistance that isn't led by neo Nazis.
Last, it's odd that there's an argument put forward that , because America losing in Vietnam was a good thing, that Russia should lose the Ukraine war to push back their world domination. As if the world hegemon in the 60s-70s is comparable to Russia's regional role today. I mean if we're being honest we can skip the mental gymnastics and say that Ukraine should lose the war, because then America will lose by proxy and that's a good thing according to the author. They're still the most important node in global capitalism today after all. The point he tries to make isn't a flattering one for his own argument, and once again shows how he doesn't understand historical context of these events. Instead he seems to have an essentially liberal lens of "small guy good, big guy bad".
No wonder Jacobin published that article . It ticks off all their little boxes of being pathetically aesthetically radical without actually coming to a different conclusion than that reached by the US state department.
Thanks for the comment, I don't agree with some of it, but I see your point.
Note that the interview I linked (the first link) is instead from 3 months ago, so much more recent.
The guys is also an historian, I doubt he doesn't understand the historical context. Possibly he simply disagrees with some of those points or has different views.
Either way, I found some of the interviews interesting as the left in Ukraine is extremely weak, and this point of view is really not presented anywhere. For example in https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article7982 he talks about the Azov battalion, the use of Nazi symbols and more.
Slobber Ukrainski
Is anybody here going to actually develop an argument, discuss the topic, or was that too ambitious from my side?
Also no, I am not Ukrainian as your comment implies, I am Italian.
For future reference, I think you are missing a j there, considering that it's Украинский. Written like you did I think it's Polish.
Yes, because the weapons are sent directly to these guys so that they can use it to exterminate Jews
That's exactly what's happening.
Are Jews being exterminated in Ukraine?
Also weapons are not sent directly to battalions (incl. Nazi ones) AFAIK, they are sent to the general command who distributes them.
Are Jews being exterminated in Ukraine?
Also weapons are not sent directly to battalions (incl. Nazi ones) AFAIK, they are sent to the general command who distributes them.
It's been confirmed (by Western news sources) that many of the weapons sent to Ukraine aren't accounted for at all, so there's no way to know where exactly they end up.
I also have to dispute your point that they're not being sent directly to battalions, since the US recently lifted the ban on supplying the Azov Battalion.
So you are implying that Nazis might start Jew extermination at some point. You said "it's exactly what's happening", which I think implies it's currently happening. I think we can all agree that Western posture (incl. Hypocrisy) will never let that slide, if it will be, so that it will immediately bring to a stop to weapon supplies. It would be complete suicide for Ukraine to let that happen as well, so I personally think this is extremely unlikely. But this is personal speculation.
I am aware of the lift for the restriction, but this doesn't invalidate my point. The weapons are not given to them by the West. They can be given to them by the Ukrainian command that distributes according to the needs. This is also fairly obvious because it would be extremely inefficient to send weapons directly to battalions.
That said, I agree about tons of weapons getting lost and not knowing where they end up, which will be a massive problem after the war for sure.
So you are implying that Nazis might start Jew extermination at some point.
Do you even look back at what you write before you post it?
Yes.
Specifically because I completely disagree with that assessment and I think analysis should be done way more thoroughly that simply based on word associations. I don't think that Ukrainian Nazis will be in any position to carry out any extermination even if they wanted, for example.
So before challenging it, I want to understand it clearly.
ukrainian nazis were allowed to try to ethnically cleanse eastern ukraine. the state was unable or unwilling to rein them in. the same state passed laws attempting to marginalize the native language of millions of ukrainians.
ukrainian nazis were very much in a position to carry out an extermination before the war. i suppose it wasnt going well enough for you to consider it a proper extermination attempt or something.
I think you are grossly simplifying once again. I don't think it's honest to say that the war post 2014 was an attempt to cleanse eastern Ukraine, despite many civilians died and despite many terrible episodes from Nazi battalions (which I am aware) which have not been punished properly, I think it had to do way more with nationalism and refusing to give land away rather than with ethnic cleansing.
Similarly you quote Ukrainian language being pushed. For the record, I disagree with those measures (and so does the guy I have linked above) - in fact I study and kinda-speak Russian myself. However, you need to also consider the way that Russian language has been used as an imperialistic tool. You need to consider the reaction to what was a suppression to Ukrainian language in the past. The matter is way more complex than what you are presenting it. It is not a coincidence that today tons of Ukrainian people stopped using Russian even if that's their native language.
Also I want to specify the most of what you talk about was done under Poroshenko, a way more nationalist president.
I discard the last point because it feels like a provocation. I will simply say that after the war there will definitely be a huge need to mitigate ethnic divisions and a persecution of Russian speaking people. On the other hand, my question: do you consider the current Russian invasion, including attacks on civilians and the other horrors we have seen an attempt to ethnically cleanse Ukraine? Do you feel it is a justified reaction?
which I think implies it's currently happening.
It really doesn't. If I say ”I'm going to buy some groceries to make dinner”, there's no implication that I'm going to start making dinner immediately.
That’s exactly what’s happening.
Are Jews being exterminated in Ukraine?
There was no "going". I know this is a pointless discussion, but it feels a very dishonest way to make a pointless discussion.
I know you’re a Bandera apologist, so making this comment is pretty pointless, but “what’s happening” referred to arms being sent to Ukraine, not the latter part of the sentence.
because the weapons are sent directly to these guys so that they can use it to exterminate Jews
They are not separate "parts" of the sentence, they are inherently semantically connected.
Also, as I said elsewhere, I am Italian. I grew up with the values of the resistance and proud of multiple partisans within the family, that shot Nazis and fascists back then. For me, Nazism has a very straightforward connotation, so for me it's inconceivable to even be allied to Nazi Germany. That said, I simply acknowledge that my opinions are based on a specific cultural background that is not shared. In Eastern Europe, whether you like it or not, people have a different cultural background. Bandera is a controversial figure because it is someone who allied with Nazis but also fought for independence. I would definitely not call myself a Bandera apologist, I simply acknowledge that I cannot Westxplain certain things to people with completely different cultural backgrounds. So I accept the fact that for some people Bandera is a hero, and those same people might not be nazis. The world is full of contradictions and this is a complex topic that has tons of them.
Ukrainian Nazis seem more focused on ethnic Russians and Roma than Jews (at the moment) probably because they're allied with the West and being too blatantly anti-Semitic could cost them NATO bucks. There's been plenty of reporting on their attacks against Russians and Roma though.
Can you drop a few links, so I can better understand what you are talking about and -most importantly- when the facts you are talking about happened?
I am not aware of many reports since the full-scale invasion started, which is the moment where they are getting weapons and what we were talking about. I am aware of attacks against what they call "filo-Russians/collaborators", which in many case I am sure were just innocent russian-speaking people. Today, however, they are fighting in the same army with tons of ethnic Russians, so what you are saying sounds at the very least strange.
Couldn't be more blatant ruzzian
Couldn’t be more blatant NATO loser
Lol you literally can't imagine a non-russian person disagreeing with you about supporting nazis, absolutely brainrotted
This place aint for you lemm.ee user.
Oh yeah "instance-based" discussions/discrimination, one of my favorite bs of Lemmy, so silly (incl. when the opposite happens).
Anyway, if that's the case block me, have me banned or have the instance defederated.
Now, anything you care to say about the actual discussion, or you'd rather waste some more bytes and corresponding CO2 emissions on personal meaningless attacks, first?
Now, anything you care to say about the actual discussion, or you'd rather waste some more bytes and corresponding CO2 emissions on personal meaningless attacks, first?
Nice emoji. Is there some hidden message or it's literally just a waste of bytes like this comment?
Maybe this one is more to your likingI liked even the other one TBH. That said, I don't feel you are contributing much to the discussion. It's not mandatory to do so, despite how much I enjoy the fun emojis.
lmao you're not discussing anything, you're just engaging in delusional nazi apologetics and whining about emojis, you're a joke you get that right?
I am not really doing any nazi apology. It would be really hard for me to do that.
Do you get that insults work if the person you are insulting has any respect of you, right? I honestly can't care less for your rants, your emojis, your insults or anything else you says. If you engage in good faith in a discussion, I am happy to do the same. If we need to just shitpost, I am happy to do that as well. But if you think you can bully and insult and have any kind of personal impact, I think you can employ your time more productively.
You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into unfortunately.
Could you "logic" your way around this image please?
What's the logic of attempting to ethically cleanse millions of Russian speaking Ukrainians while arming and incorporating dozens of neo-nazis militias into the state military while giving them special forces status and pay?
The Azov group has literally been reorganized into one of the major and most well equipped special forces brigades in the Ukrainian army, the same is true for all the premier units with open banderites in charge of the command structure
The only reason you're feigning ignorance about this is because Ukrainian state and social media isn't readily observable in the west, so you dipshits can pretend that neo-nazism isn't the dominant force in Ukrainian cultural and poltical life
The Azov group has literally been reorganized into one of the major and most well equipped special forces brigades in the Ukrainian army
Which is also why it lost a lot of its own identity. Consider that I think the whole battallion was approximately ~1000/2000 people in 2014 when it was created. Many people left the unit after the incorporation. Are there nazis still left there? I am quite sure. I doubt it's a predominant group. As I said elsewhere, I also "speak" Russian (can read it decently well) and I generally also read local sources.
So I am not feigning ignorance, I am literally contesting your viewpoint because I disagree with it. However, if you have some kind of analysis that shows/discusses that indeed neo-nazism is the dominant force in Ukrainian cultural and political life, I am happy to read it.
Which is also why it lost a lot of its own identity
It didn't lose its identity dumbass, it has gain unprecedented power and legitimacy and is now the premier special forces division of the country
Many people left the unit after the incorporation
No they did not, stop making shit up, the command structure of the unit is now made up of Azov prisoners who were captured by the Russians early in the war and released in subsequent prisoner trade exchanges
As I said elsewhere, I also "speak" Russian (can read it decently well) and I generally also read local sources.
lmao you do not speak Russian
It didn’t lose its identity dumbass
Why would you say so, considering that:
- Many died
- Many new units have been created around the country
- We are talking of an initial group (2014) that counted 600 members
I would say that all these factors contributed to the loss of identity for it, especially the fact that units have been formed in completely different places and just merged to the Azov SSO. I am not aware of a selection based on if you are a Nazi to form these units, while the initial formation was based on ideological alignment.
the command structure of the unit is now made up of Azov prisoners who were captured by the Russians early in the war and released in subsequent prisoner trade exchanges
I think you are talking about the 5 commanders who were supposed to remain in Turkey, but later went back?
lmao you do not speak Russian
I do, well, B1 level so I don't speak it very well but I can read it OK, I study it for 2 years now with a Belarusian teacher living in Italy, imagine! Hard to prove online for sure, but I will try, I included also the children books I started with:
Not everyone you are discussing online is in bad faith, despite the overwhelming experience that suggests otherwise.
Many died
Many died and then more nazis joined, and the ones who were captured are now leading the unit
Many new units have been created around the country
And they're all commanded by ideological nazis and banderites leading cohorts of other convinced nazis or demoralized conscripts who don't want to be there regardless
We are talking of an initial group (2014) that counted 600 members
And then the years 2015, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23 came and went, the concept of time I know it's wild, now Azov has thousands of fighters and premier government approved status and is simply one of dozens of openly neo-nazi units operating within the Ukrainian military
So here lies our disagreements.
New members joining doesn't mean more nazis joining. While the initial militia was absolutely certainly made by people who were nazis and aligned, the moment the battalion is part of the army and recruits from elsewhere are sent there, this dynamic changes.
Something that you seem to acknowledge:
And they’re all commanded by ideological nazis and banderites leading cohorts of other convinced nazis or demoralized conscripts who don’t want to be there regardless
And they are also part of a higher structure of command. Again, I completely agree that there are Nazis, but you can't reject the fact that there is a difference between a self-formed militia and a battalion that becomes part of the army. It's obvious that the first one has a stronger identitary nature.
And then the years 2015, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23 came and went, the concept of time I know it’s wild, now Azov has thousands of fighters and premier government approved status and is simply one of dozens of openly neo-nazi units operating within the Ukrainian military
AFAIK the battalion has had the most ~2500 people. The national guard they belong to is like ~90k people. This + what I am discussing above, and my point becomes clear: while early the battalion was made of 600, 900 nazis (~100%), with time this percentage decreases more and more. I don't have numbers obviously, and neither do you it seems.
EDIT: You didn't tell me if that was proof enough for you that I do speak Russian (kinda). Well, or at least that I do study it for some time.
Your entire argument is based on delusional magical thinking, it's the equivalent of asserting the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich weren't nazis because the SS was a separate institution and the majority of the German army conscripts weren't SS or party members, it's a derivative of the clean Wehrmacht myth except in this case applied to the Ukrainian army whose official policy is to actively celebrate nazis like Bandera and elevated neo-nazi militias in its own institution, also misses the point that these are considered elite bodies with strict recruitment policies, not football clubs any dipshit banderist can join, that's what the other dozens of brigades and incorporated nazi units are for
the moment the battalion is part of the army and recruits from elsewhere are sent there, this dynamic changes.
Just take how delusional this sentence is, any institution that allows nazis to openly organize and preach is by definition a nazi organization, doesn't matter if the leadership and the hardcore members are outnumbered by conscripts, conscripts who judging by internal Ukrainian polls are open and susceptible to Banderist nazi ideology, which is why the literal fuckin majority of western photography shows a cavalcade of soldiers proudly displaying nazi paraphernalia
but you can't reject the fact that there is a difference between a self-formed militia and a battalion that becomes part of the army.
Yeah the difference is now the nazis are given institutional approval and funding, lmao how the fuck are you missing that obvious development, if the federal government found some random neo-nazi militia and gave them federal approval, funding, and arms, that wouldn't be a good you delusional nazi apologist
There wouldn't be a reduction of their "identity" it's would instead be elevated and given prestigious institutional status from which they can use to recruit and spread, which surprise is what has been happening, to the point we now got a nazi comfortable enough to go to Auschwitz and mock the victims of the Holocaust without any media backlash IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, what do you think is going in Ukraine proper
it’s the equivalent of asserting the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich weren’t nazis because the SS was a separate institution and the majority of the German army conscripts weren’t SS or party members
No. Or better, it's not because I don't start from the same assumption as you do, which is that Ukrainian state is inherently Nazi.
any institution that allows nazis to openly organize and preach is by definition a nazi organization
This is a good point, although this definition cast quite a wide net as many countries have nazi organisations in the open (at least most Western countries). I don't think I would agree that most of those countries are nazi countries (assuming a state is an "institution").
That said, I think that Azov internal propaganda (that they are quite good at it) as been very focused on war effort, so "preaching" here is not as clear as it was during 2014 protests.
celebrate nazis like Bandera
I tried to explain elsewhere that this =/= nazism. I won't repeat myself.
There wouldn’t be reduction of their “identity” it’s would instead be elevated and given prestigious institutional status from which they can use to recruit and spread, which surprise is what has been happening, to the point we now got a nazi comfortable enough to go to Auschwitz and mock the victims of the Holocaust without any media backlash IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, what do you think is going in Ukraine proper
This is a fair point of view, but I simply disagree with it. I think that the Nazi ideology of those radical group has been diluted into a much more Western-friendly narrative, and I think it will continue to do so.
a nazi comfortable enough to go to Auschwitz and mock the victims of the Holocaust without any media backlash IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES
I didn't even look on regional news, but honestly, this is an article about 2 people. I would hardly expect backlash for something like this. Maybe there have been local Polish news about this, have you looked?
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What definition of imperialism are you using to make this analysis?
I would say a pretty straightforward one: an entity (nation state) that aims to expand its own influence and exercise power over other nations or people. I say straightforward because the military way is the most obvious, while other means (commercial, soft-power, technological) are harder to define or categorize.
EDIT:
I need to say, for a place that is supposed to be leftist, there doesn't seem to be much love for analysis and discussions, while there is plenty of groupthink trend. I can't possibly imagine why someone would downvote a comment that answers to a direct question from another user. If you do disagree with the definition that's very welcome and I am eager to know why the definition is in your opinion wrong or not applicable in this context. I need to say that as a communist, this gives a very bad vibe, since I would have expected interesting debates (with plenty of disagreements!).
This is an extremely broad definition that has no Marxist basis and would apply to basically any country that trades with another.
Provide a better one, and then we can discuss whether that applies to Russian invasion of Ukraine. Genuinely curious to hear your views.
for a place that is supposed to be leftist, there doesn’t seem to be much love for analysis and discussions
There are tons of people discussing and analyzing this with you in this thread, the fact they're pushing back against your narrative and not immediately validating your dumber talking points doesn't mean they're not "open to discussion", they're just not open to entertaining you.
I can’t possibly imagine why someone would downvote a comment that answers to a direct question from another user.
This site doesn't have downvotes so you're just talking out your ass here.
there is plenty of groupthink trend
We have a somewhat consistent party line here, that's not groupthink that's just being clear what our ideological stance is on thing. You can come here and disagree with it but don't expect a warm welcome, same as I wouldn't expect a warm welcome if I showed up in a Liberal forum and started dropping hardcore ML talking points.
Oh no no, I am completely OK with pushbacks and people disagreements! I said so myself. I specifically referred to such a neutral comment being downvoted. I hope you will agree that many of my comments are being downvoted on principle, which -sure- it's fine. But this one in particular was quite hilarious, as it was just an answer to a question!
This site doesn’t have downvotes so you’re just talking out your ass here.
I mean, maybe someone from another instance did? It clearly has a downvote, and so do most of the other comments.
You can come here and disagree with it but don’t expect a warm welcome
I don't expect a warm welcome (even though as a ML myself I would expect a tendency to challenge and discuss analysis). I don't even care for it. But people commenting simply "fuck off" or oneliners that don't even adhere to "any" line are clearly the result of feeling like you can do whatever because you "play home", and it seems many seem to feel entitled to that behavior because they have seen others do the same - hence groupthink.
You're not being downvoted, we don't have downvotes.
Some people are telling you to fuck off yeah, that's largely cuz you started making Bandera apologia in the thread, which I think is a pretty good "fuck off" line. Besides that you've been pretty smug and obtuse this whole thread so I don't blame people for not wanting to be 100% civil towards you.
Regardless you have been getting people trying to honestly engage you (perhaps not in a totally polite way, nevertheless) so going on some mopey diatribe about what meanie weenies we've been to you just comes off as you being whiny.
The locus of nazism is ethnonationalism, racial purity, and eugenics. Killing Jews, communists, socialists, non-chosen peoples and other so called undesirables is downstream of ethnonationalism, not the other way around.
It is not possible for me to tell if you are doing bad faith nazi apologia or if you are just ignorantly doing nazi apologia because of lifelong exposure to anticommunist brainworms. If you are actually good faith about wanting to understand fascism and nazism in ukraine then I encourage you to spend time reading the news comm and various theory about the origins and definition of nazism and fascism.
Regardless, I am temp banning you for the time being because nazi apologism has absolutely no place on this board. If you are willing to learn, demonstrate that willingness with whatever you post in a month.
