10mo ago

Sovcit is sooooo close..

208 comments

My econ 101 professor once said "what are the things that even the most anti-government people say the government needs to do? Emergency services." Then these dense motherfuckers came along to outdo even that.
- Internet libertarians & off-the-rails conservatives unironically say EMS and Fire Departments should be privatized. Ancaps go one step further and say police and sometimes even military should be private. It makes me lose hope in voters, until I remember that I was 15 before too and most people surely grow out of that phase. But there's a few people who are fully adult-aged who still believe that which is kind of sad for them I guess
  
  Firefighters were literally private companies before we collectively decided it was a bad idea. Firefighters would just sit and watch a place burn if nobody payed up. Sometimes rival firefighters would even get in brawls over who gets the contract while the house was burning down beside them.
  
  There were cases of firefighters setting fires so that they could be paid to put them out. Why not?
  
  if memory serves, the first fire fighters were in Rome and owned by rich people. If you didn't pay them to put out the fire, their boss would buy the ashes from you afterwards.
  https://ancient-history-blog.mq.edu.au/cityOfRome/Vigiles
  okay, I was close. Buy your house while it was still on fire.
  
  Somewhat predictably they also started the first public firefighting force after a large part of the city burned down, again. Apparently prevention is just not profitable if you're only paying people to extinguish fire.
  Didn't prevent what is now known as the Great Fire of Rome though.
  
  They're municipally operated here and we actually had a case a few years back where a small town that couldn't reasonably afford to operate their own fire department needed to make arrangements with a nearby larger town to have fire emergency response services cover them.
  The larger town said sure, $50 per year per home. Small town had 63 people, but some refused to pay. Fire department said they weren't going to keep track of which houses were and were not covered, so they had to all be on board or none of them would be.
  Naturally a home later caught fire and burned to the ground. Thankfully no one was inside at the time.
  
  Damn, that isn't even all that much. Tiny town so I'm assuming some people just couldn't afford it.
  
  They tried this with firefighters before way back when, and then realized that fire doesn't seem to care who's subscribed or not lol. Can you imagine? "The fire and EMS lobby" would be powerfully pushing for reduced safety and maybe even starting fires themselves LOL.
  Edit while looking up the first thing: Oh my word... mercenary firefighters are a thing for the rich and we're living in clown world.
  EDIT: Link went to NYT because it was top result, but screw that lol. Fixed.
  I can see it now though...
  Privatized emergency services be like:
  "Thank you for calling 9-1-1, this is Janeanniesomebody, can I have your 14-digit emergency insurance number, date of birth, and mother's maiden name please. Okay thank you, one moment while I verify that..." (Click)
  "Your call is very important to us. Want to skip the line when it matters most? Did you know, for only $49.97 a month, you can get Emergency-Services-Plus+! Whether you want help fast, or to regret being covered for the rest of your life, we have a plan right for YOU!
  "Remember, emergency insurance means you can have peace of mind that, when you're in mortal danger, we're only a phone call and 45-minutes-to-1-business-day away! Not signed up yet? Press 1, and we can help!"
  ((Trendy upbeat hold music))
  "Did you know? We're always hiring!"
  (Receiver pickup) "Thank you for calling this is Devaidengregjimmothy, dispatch specialist, how can I help you today? Hello?......Hello?...."
  
  Cassius from the tail end of the roman republic famously was the richest man in Rome and owned the “fire brigade”. When a fire broke out he would only put it out after the owner agreed to sell the place for next to nothing.
  
  You are right, my bad.
  
  Also the guy whom Parthians had drink molten gold.
  He wanted to try himself as a general too, but that didn't quite work out.
  
  I don’t know why you’re being downvoted, that’s the account. It probably didn’t happen, but it made a great story. The greediest, richest man in Rome bought an army and was made to drink what he craved most when he failed. Poetic justice.
  Yes, I know ; there are a few stories of his death, some mutually exclusive. The most popular is the version that he was beheaded, "gold-fed" and his head used instead of cabbage in a theatrical play, the place is disputed too, most likely Ecbatana or Susa, but there's also a version of that happening in Artaxata (matches the premise where it's said that he didn't listen to Artavazd's warning out of his pride, and then Artavazd decided to "betray" Crassus by remaining loyal to Parthia).
  I think I've heard a version of him being overfed with meat and fat and made drink cold water, thus dying ; well, I don't know if it's even a working way to execute someone.
  
  They sure do want us all to live in a world where you have to swipe your credit card to drive anywhere, to go into a store, to walk anywhere, to use a public bathroom, to call 911, to use any services at all.
  But I guess it will be worth it, because I'm sure the ancaps and libertarians and sovcits have a really good plan to keep each of us wealthy enough that privatizing the entirety of civilization won't harm anyone.
  
  It makes me lose hope in voters, until I remember that I was 15 before too and most people surely grow out of that phase.
  Wait till you turn 25 and leave your parents' basement
  
  Damn I didn't know ancaps existed on this site. Ooooo taxes ooOo basic public services ooo scawy
  
  You're the one who wrote about being 15.
  You are most likely not able to reason why ancap ideology is bad or why your own ideology is good. Which is why you should show more respect to people who are trying to reason in either direction. Their opinion, no matter which direction specifically that is, is worth something.
  Specifically ancap ideology is attractive for me exactly because it requires one to imagine very specific architectures of how things would work, so - to reason their position. I've been following one ancom channel in TG, because they were posting many interesting articles about tackling the same problems ancaps want to tackle. And as you may know, ancaps and ancoms don't like each other.
  Both ancap and ancom ideologies are simply better than all the rest, because they don't ignore the problem of compromised institutions.
  Once again, your opinion is worth as much as you personally can support it with logic. Being part of a crowd doesn't mean attaining the intelligence or the authority of somebody else in that crowd. These things don't transfer. So your tone makes only you personally look immature and stupid.
  
  Both ancap and ancom ideologies are simply better than all the rest, because they don’t ignore the problem of compromised institutions.
  And yet almost no one wants to live in the world those people have presented to everyone. Should they be forced to?
  
  Should they be forced to?
  If I can be forced to live in the world you like more, then yes, otherwise no.
  
  I see, so how would you force them to live this way, kill the ones who elect a leader and decide to trade in currency?
  
  Just kill those trying to prevent ancap between me and my friends.
  
  You just said everyone should be forced to live in an ancap world.
  Which is it? Just you and your friends or everyone?
  
  What I said.
  If I can be forced to live in the world you like more, then yes, otherwise no.
  That's why leftists fail at everything they do.
  Which is it? Just you and your friends or everyone?
  It's not the first time you cheat to pretend you caught me at something.
  
  Are those friends in the room right now?
  
  I dunno, get a look around
  
  I mean I am basically a feudal lady but even I know this whole capitalistic mess is toxic for mind, soul and environment. How you want that but dialled to 11 is beyond me.
  It would end in actual feudalism as in few people amassing goods, land, resources and ruling over the masses as kings with their monopolies and monetising air you breathe or the like. Killing you for disobedience in some private execution using private justice system keeping u in check with private militia.
  The only thing between that reality and current is government with its anti monopoly laws, taxes, protection of basic amenities and wealth redistribution. Of course countries vary here.
  Ancapitalism is probably one of the most stupid systems you can invent as it basically deconstructs itself as one individual amasses so much wealth they become a de facto king ruling over everything with absolute power destroying the system that helped them amass such power.
  It is sad to see someone crazy enough to advocate for such system that isn’t even possible to exist long term and leads to feudalism very fast.
  Not many people are insane enough to want RUST game irl unironically
  
  OK, the other comment was bored, lazy and not very sincere.
  Ancapitalism is probably one of the most stupid systems you can invent as it basically deconstructs itself as one individual amasses so much wealth they become a de facto king ruling over everything with absolute power destroying the system that helped them amass such power.
  No. To learn about ancap, go to ancaps and not to non-ancaps writing about ancaps.
  It would end in actual feudalism as in few people amassing goods, land, resources and ruling over the masses as kings with their monopolies and monetising air you breathe or the like. Killing you for disobedience in some private execution using private justice system keeping u in check with private militia.
  No, because ancap is not the same as anarchy by Hobbes.
  
  Sorry, I see no value in this text because it wrongly assumes that ancap is about abolishing rules.
  Ancap is about determining a specific functional set of rules and functional architecture to support it.
  It's about evaluating forces and feedbacks in human societies and economies and designing a system where people are impeded in using power to enforce their vision upon other people.
  That is why central authority and state are a problem - there are never backup mechanisms that you can switch to once the main one stops working correctly, and many people want this, because they want to capture that mechanism and enforce their will upon others. So even attempts to create backup mechanisms are met with resistance by crowds of fools who think that their favorite faction is the closest to capturing the main one and making others do something, and by people with power, who, of course, exist just as well ~~despite that being ideologically inconvenient for you~~.
  The problem of someone eventually amassing too much power is not being solved by existing states any better than in ancap.
  Thus ancaps are trying to design systems as decentralized as possible for human societies. So that there always would be backup mechanisms to run away to.
  EDIT: If this is too abstract, that's because ancap as an ideology is defined by these criteria and not by specific solutions. And that's right, if an ideology puts its set of solutions above the goals, then it's a religious cult.
  
  That’s a big load of pseudo-intellectual gibberish. But the end effect would be the same no matter how you try to gymnastic your way around it
  
  People like this are always talking about how things should be without understanding that the world doesn't run on 'should' and most people don't want what they're selling.
  
  What a weird appeal to authority (I guess?).
  
  No
  
  Your reading comprehension must suck because you completely incorrectly read the sentence you're obsessing over. There are so many of you ancaps (almost entirely clueless teenagers) online that it becomes tiring to debunk your stupid ideology over and over again. If you can't see why a system based around capital – where you vote with your capital and people with more capital have more votes, where resources are distributed based on capital and capital itself is a resource – is inherently flawed, then that's completely on you. If you want leftists to educate you, then you can support the education reforms they're advocating for, not go on Lemmy and beg for them to personally tutor you. But I guess you're still in high school so that's not exactly something you're old enough to do.
  Ancaps are pathetic, there is no reason to seriously engage every single one you see. They live in a fantasy world where charity replaces taxes and systematic discrimination & deepseated cultural biases are solved by the "free market", and pollution & climate change (if you even think it's an issue) are solved by future techbros which will totally invent stuff to completely unfuck the planet asap (or something something they'll totally be stopped when people realize it violates the NAP). They also live in a fantasy world where capital isn't used to "compromise the institutions" as you say you're worried about. You can try to slither your way into anarchist discourse all you like and try to gain their acceptance, but it is not happening.
  
  No. You may imagine you've defeated someone or debunked something. Bye
  EDIT: "If you want leftists to educate you" - definitely not. "Ancaps are ..." - you are not qualified to talk about ancaps instead of ancaps themselves.
  
  The fact that your resolve immediately crumbles when you have to think about the logic of your ideology even a tiny bit says a lot about the number of years you have left until you graduate from high school
  
  My resolve crumbles because of people considering themselves intelligent gone chimps spamming my inbox.
  
  Specifically ancap ideology is attractive for me exactly because it requires one to imagine very specific architectures of how things would work
  You're saying you like it because it makes you use your imagination because it's literally so far from reality it'll never exist? Lol.
  
  Ancap ideology, not ancap world.
  Most ideologies require you only to bunch together and yell louder. Ancap is not suited for that, which is why it's cool.
  I would formulate this as "hard to achieve, so requires clearly understood principles". Same as space travel. Or GNU/Hurd. Sigh.
  
  Most ideologies require you only to bunch together and yell louder. Ancap is not suited for that, which is why it's cool.
  Then why the fuck do I constantly see Ancaps doing this?
  I've literally never actually seen an ancap successfully practice their ideas. I've only ever seen them desperately fail trying, or loudly exclaiming that they're the smartest and bestest and all their ideas are golden (ignore the fact they've never even tried to put them In place, just loudly yelled complaining about the world they exist in like cats).
  
  I’ve literally never actually seen an ancap successfully practice their ideas.
  There is a community in Montenegro I know of trying to do that. It hasn't yet desperately failed. It's Russian, so may not fit you.
  I also fuzzily remember a group of people planning of another such place like 10 years ago, but I stopped following them.
  or loudly exclaiming that they’re the smartest and bestest and all their ideas are golden (ignore the fact they’ve never even tried to put them In place, just loudly yelled complaining about the world they exist in like cats).
  How is this different from any kind of leftists except tankies?
  Also "never tried" is a simplification.
  
  I also fuzzily remember a group of people planning of another such place like 10 years ago, but I stopped following them.
  A group near me completely failed after their town was overrun by bears because the abolished the trash/recycling rules and the animal control department.
  How is this different from any kind of leftists except tankies?
  Literally every single leftie has a larger history of putting their ideology into practice, seen or heard of a welfare state? Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats probably built it. Every nation on earth has a Dem Soc or Soc Dem major party.
  Hell even the other anarchists have spent the past century building communes literally everywhere, and they're the second most ineffective political group after Ancaps.
  
  A group near me completely failed after their town was overrun by bears because the abolished the trash/recycling rules and the animal control department.
  Well, incompetence sucks.
  Literally every single leftie has a larger history of putting their ideology into practice, seen or heard of a welfare state? Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats probably built it. Every nation on earth has a Dem Soc or Soc Dem major party.
  Of course it's larger, ancap is from 1960s.
  So non-ancap nations influenced by ancap count?
  Hell even the other anarchists have spent the past century building communes literally everywhere, and they’re the second most ineffective political group after Ancaps.
  Because ancaps exist for less than a century.
  I guess you won't call cryptocurrencies a success of ancap ideology.

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