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Communication? Lebanon has a right to defend itself. It's like questioning why Biden has a line to the Israel Prime Minister.
Hezbollah is a right wing religious militia, not the government of Lebanon
they're not the government but they are a political party with 15 seats in the parliament.
And most political parties don't sit on a stash of rockets and other military weapons.
Most political parties aren't born out of resistance to Israeli Settler Colonialism
Irrelevant. Either they're a political party or an armed militia.
Things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians
Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah. Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity, Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association, and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association. Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.
Hezbollah holds 14 of the 128 seats in the Parliament of Lebanon and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc. According to Daniel L. Byman, it is "the most powerful single political movement in Lebanon." Hezbollah, along with the Amal Movement, represents most of Lebanese Shi'a.
If the existence of good cops does not disprove that all cops are bastards, since policing as a concept is a corrupt institution and if they were really good cops, they would quit, how can we not say the same about social workers who align themselves with a terrorist organization?
Israel does magnitudes more terrorism. Do you consider all the social workers in Israel in the same light?
Equating a health care worker within Hezbollah to a 'good cop' within the Police Department doesn't make much sense. Nor does it use any materialist analysis of the situation to understand the context of their existence.
Hezbollah only exists because of Israel's Settler Colonialism, deliberate targeting of civilians (Dahiya Doctrine), and Ethnic Cleansing. There is plenty about them I don't agree with but that doesn't change the fact that they are a resistance movement.
Actually, it's not irrelevant and they're both!
There are more of them that do than there are that don't. A militia wing is very common outside the western world.
Really? What happens if they get a plurality or even a majority, would there be a significant risk of a coup?
Generally speaking, you don't want to mix your militias and political parties.
In some places yes. In others they're already more concerned with an ongoing conflict. There are some that just organize their military that way and wouldn't think of it. Heck that's the original way of organizing a military.
They are like the minutemen, but have worse PR.
Haha no. Take some time and read up maybe? All the info is available. Heck, maybe hop on a call and talk to some people in Lebanon? Anything. Just stop repeating nonsense.
All the info is available.
But it ISN'T. The US mainstream media constantly lies and the US pushes propaganda all around the world. We've been fed disinformation for decades not just since Trump. So I can't just read up on them without a deep dive in trying to first find neutral sources and read and then evaluate them. If you just read the standard version about them your perception is going to be warped. Like I said, they have bad PR, which really means prevailing propaganda brands them as evil.
I don't like their religious views either but fundamentally they are guys in a militia fighting against foreign invaders and threats to their country.
fundamentally they are guys in a militia fighting against foreign invaders and threats to their country
Why do you think this?
Probably because Hezbollah maintains that Israel is still occupying Lebanon.
And they're right about that.
Which territory specifically?
Shebaa Farms
Yea. The UN confirmed most of the occupied lebanese territories from the six day war were returned. Yes, I know some areas of Sheeba Farms are still contested.
I'm curious, if all the Sheeba Farm territories were completely returned tomorrow do you think Hezbollah would retire?
Why should the US president be in regular contact with the perpetrator of an ongoing genocide?
Almost makes you think the US supports continued Israeli apartheid.
You're asking why the US formed an ally 75 years ago with the only stable democracy in the middle east and has a continued interest in maintaining stability in the region?
Of course not, you can only operate in sound bytes, buzzwords and catchphrases.
"only stable democracy" haha that old chestnut, you are deluded if you are ignoring the number of actual democracies in the ME that USA has helped topple or marginalised.
Haha let's talk about 75 years of ME geopolitics using buzzwords and catchphrases. Haha.
haha let's use the only parroted phrase you know again and again haha
If someone starts a conversation in buzzwords and catchphrases I will respond in kind. You don't like it? Feel free to start another thread that doesn't use catchphrase as the foundation and starting point for a conversation on me politics.
You guys want to have your cake and eat it. Pick one. Have a nuanced discussion about me politics or throw memes around. Don't shit yourself because you don't like what you see in the mirror.
It's me. We can smear our feces together.
Mind telling me how Israel is a table democracy? Or how they create stability? Maybe you can tell me why the middle east is a destabilized region to begin with?
I do mind telling you because I know I won't get an informed discussion out of this thread. You want to talk ME politics? Start a new thread with specifics and let's go over it. I'm not expending energy replying to buzz phrases with detailed responses. I've played this game and it sucks spending time and energy discussing something only to get back.
"lmao. Genocide Joe amirite?"
People use lazy catchphrases to describe me politics: I respond with more lazy catchphrases.
So you can't then, got it.
Mind telling me how Israel is a table democracy? Or how they create stability? Maybe you can tell me why the middle east is a destabilized region to begin with?
You're asking a rhetorical question in the hopes of getting a gotcha. Because, again, all you guys do is swim in catchphrases and vibes. Your primary goal here is not to deepen any kind of understanding. If you did, you would be a lot more honest in your questions. You'd open up with a clear argument, based on specifics, with dates, people, events etc.
No one is obligated to give you an essay on the last 75 years of ME geopolitics if all you do is start is with catchphrases and gotchas.
You want a nuanced discussion that delves into the specifics of the geopolitics of the region? Start a thread that's not just diluted meaningless sentences, such as this nugget:
Why should the US president be in regular contact with the perpetrator of an ongoing genocide?
It's hopeless, because you guys will bounce back and forth between one catchphrase or buzz sentence without opening a book, or a wikipedia page, or an article, or anything. And you want us to come here and write essays to explain or refute these meaningless sentiments. It's all vibes. You start threads with vibes, you get vibes.
To be clear, that wasnt me you just responded to, but I was the one who asked you the questions. You seem to be making a lot of bad faith assumptions about my intent with those questions.
You're asking a rhetorical question in the hopes of getting a gotcha.
Well, it is rhetorically framed, but I was trying to see if you and I are both working with frameworks built on reality.
Your primary goal here is not to deepen any kind of understanding.
Again, ouch. The tone of the questions may have come across that way, but my intent is never to "gotcha"... You'll just have to take my word for it obviously.
If you did, you would be a lot more honest in your questions. You'd open up with a clear argument, based on specifics, with dates, people, events etc.
This is a forum on internet, not debate club. Like I said above, I'm sorry if my questions came across as being bad faith, but I'm not obligated to serve you a rhetorically perfect and fallacy-free set of questions, just as you are not obligated to engage with my questions if you feel they're trying to uh... "Gotcha"
If you did, you would be a lot more honest in your questions. You'd open up with a clear argument, based on specifics, with dates, people, events etc.
I'm not totally sure how I'm responding with catch phrases. Honestly, if nothing else I'd love for you to clarify this
You want a nuanced discussion that delves into the specifics of the geopolitics of the region? Start a thread that's not just diluted meaningless sentences, such as this nugget:
Why should the US president be in regular contact with the perpetrator of an ongoing genocide?
I'm sorry, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, but I can't tell if you're using the above as an example of a "diluted meaningless sentence" or whether it's meant to be a good question.
Ultimately, I don't feel I was acting in bad faith considering I was trying to evaluate your framework. If you feel it was done poorly, that's okay, you dont need to respond.
Also:
Who are "you guys"?
I only responded to you in this manner because your comment is downstream from OPs catchphrase comment (90% of Lemmy and socia media these days). Soundbytes that sound good, but ultimately mean nothing.
It's likely you were asking in good faith. I could have spent a lot of time typing up a thoughtful and comprehensive response only to find out later you really are here only for more memes. Then I would have lost a lot of time and it would have limited productivity.
It's not personal, but after dozens of typed out discussions that end in "lmao. Genocide Joe tho America Imperialism bad" I've learned that unless someone starts the thread or convo with specifics it will only linger in the realm of memes.
Again, sorry if you feel singled out. I'm just building a stronger filter. And I urge others to do the same. We should all be pushing harder for specifics. I urge you to do the same when arguing with people online. Have the conversation grounded in specifics and not memes.
To summarize: If someone starts with claims that are essentially memes, they should not get detailed responses. Once people start talking specifics we can match the energy.
If you personally want to have a convo with me my dms are open.
Whilst the first part of your point is correct IMHO, for the rest Israel has been the very opposite of a force for stability in the region and the non-conditionality of the US' help has emboldened successive Israeli governments to behave worse and worse thus making the region less stable (one of their main concerns seems to be to stop nations around them from having stable democratic governments) rather than more.
I would say that ACAB and a bunch of very rich Americans with Fascist tendencies who happen to be Jewish and love the ethno-Fascism which is Zionism having bought American Politics (basically doing what Russia wanted to do and, unlike Russia, actually succeeding) is a far better explanation for continued American support of Israel, a theory that much better explains the unconditionality of the American support for Israel than the idea that it's because of wanting stability in the Middle East.
Absolutelly, American support makes geostrategical sense up to a point. It's just that we're well beyond that point and the American support in its current form (weapon shipments, blocking UN resolutions condemning the genocide) doesn't make sense for geostrategical reasons (both in terms of stability in the Middle East and because it also damages the perception of America all over the World), so it must be something else driving it.
Apart with all the buzzwords; Current US politics for Israel is making US look bad on an international stage. There's no point in behaving that way.
Pagers are one directional, and cant be traced.
To view a different way, why do they have a pager, rather than just calling an embassy, "state department" or cell phone?
If they have nothing to hide, why don't they let themselves be killed?
That's a very weak arguement - you're communicating with the embassy and ambassador of a recognized country.
Is it simply impossible for you to imagine that other peoples have different opinions and viewpoints on things?
Just because it's been ingrained into you that arabs are bad and they are all "shithole countries" or hezbollah is evil, doesn't mean that others share that view. Ask yourself: Does Lebanon and Iran and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves?
And no that doesn't mean I agree with either of those groups. I just realize that framing everything as a fight of good vs evil like it's some fantasy movie where you can just slay the mindless orcs. These are human beings sick of imperialist aggression. Do you expect them to just lie down? Solutions are complicated and don't involve just killing everyone who opposes you.
So of course Iran would have communication channels with Hezbollah or even support them.
The problem isn't that my argument is weak, it's that I have to make it in the first place. It's fucking obvious except to the severely brainwashed, and then there is little point of making it instead of mocking them.
Is it simply impossible for you to imagine that other peoples have different opinions and viewpoints on things?
There are an infinity of viewpoints, and many (most?) of them will be wrong.
- "Lebanon, Iran and the Palestinians can defend themselves" is not wrong.
- "Lebanon and Iran are currently defending themselves" is wrong.
Lebanon isn't even included in this, Hezbollah is not Lebanon. Iran is attacking Israel. They could stop doing that anytime and have Israel leave them alone. That includes giving up on their uranium enrichment.
Palestinians are a much more complicated situation, because the settler land theft is agression from Israel and should have stopped decades ago. But the current Palestinian leaders (both Hamas and Fatah) don't actually care to solve that. They would rather have their citizens continue to die so they can continue getting richer. Which is why they encourage deadly attacks on civilian which will keep Netanyahu and his ilk in power, because Israelis like all humans tend to respond to violence with violence.
These are human beings sick of imperialist aggression.
Bullshit. How can you be so blind? Iran is led by right-wing theocrats leaders, they would be imperialist themselves if they could afford to. Actually they are, since they supported Syria when it fucking invaded Lebanon for 30 years. And then left Hezbollah to continue controlling the place, where it has more influence than the actual Lebanese governement, which is supposed to represent the Lebanese people.
Hezbollah does not act in the interest of the Lebanese people, they are murderous thugs that obey their masters in Tehran. If they truly wanted to help Lebanese people, they would not be shooting at Israel. There are so many things in terrible shape in Lebanon they could be fixing, but no, they are a large part of the problem because they want control over making things better.
Iran is attacking Israel. They could stop doing that anytime and have Israel leave them alone. That includes giving up on their uranium enrichment.
This is the ingrained propaganda that is clouding your understanding. Iran always complied (reasonably) with the NPT and seeks peaceful use of nuclear power. Just as Iraq didn't have WMDs. These lies are framing their resistance and defense against imperialist aggression as aggression on their side.
Obviously Iran isn't as nice and democratic, post racist and secular as the USA (/s) but they do have the right to defend themselves. Hezbollah is their tool. The US and Israel has theirs.
I see you aren't engaging most of my comment. That's fine, hopefully it made you think at least.
peaceful use
You can't claim things like "Israel must be wiped off the map" (Iranian source before you continue with the propaganda accusations) and pretend you are enriching uranium over the needed amount for civilian use for peaceful purposes.
Iraq and WMDs
No argument here, that's just America doing American things. I'd have Bush and his whole admin at the Hague if it was up to me. Not that Saddam deserved better, but the Iraqi did.
Last paragraph.
And you're right, Iran has a right to defend themselves. But they aren't defending themselves in this situation. You don't defend yourself by having a proxy invade then another take control of a country so you can have it lob missiles at a third one without endangering yourself.
You can’t claim things like “Israel must be wiped off the map”
And again you are victim of racist propaganda in the US. This is a mistranslation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
Norouzi's translation of the Persian quote reads; "the Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
I could also quote a lot of radical garbage from Bush or other worse nutjobs in the US. Some quote meant for internal consumption inside a country does not represent Iranian foreign policy.
And a lot of liberals, progressives and socialists agree that the fascist Israeli apartheid regime needs to be ended and stop oppressing the human beings in the territories they occupy and control as basically open air prisons. They need to stop violating international law. They need to stop with their terrorism and crimes against humanity.
Israel is basically a failed state. The only solution now is a 1 state solution for Palestine-Israel after a period of "de-nazification" of Israel.
Again, you really should try to comprehend that other people might have a different viewpoint of the "benevolent terrorism" by the USA and Israel. You probably have a hard time picturing them as human beings with their own thoughts and ideas and loves and families. They see they are suffering at the hands of imperialist terrorist regimes and of course they fight back.
I literally gave you a link from the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, the national iranian broadcaster, whose head is appointed by Khamenei directly. If it is a wrong translation, they were the ones that made it. And by reading your own link, do you really give any presumption of innocence to someone who speaks at a Holocaust Denial Conference??
Plus what internal consumption. If you say out loud "this country should not exist anymore" with a history of threats against that country, you should not get nuclear weapons. You can't justify this because you were speaking to extremist elements inside your country. If anything that's a counterargument.
could also quote a lot of radical garbage from Bush or other worse nutjobs in the US
I don't think the US deserves nuclear weapons either for that matter. Bush is a war criminal like Khameini is and I'd have them trialed decades ago if I had any say about it.
Israel is basically a failed state. The only solution now is a 1 state solution for Palestine-Israel after a period of “de-nazification” of Israel.
Yes, this is a pretty good example of someone having a different opinion than me. On the contrary of what you say, I can indeed picture you as a human being with your own thoughts and ideas and family that you love. But your opinion is as true as the Catholic Church's (also made of real people) was on heliocentrism.
Does Lebanon and Iran and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves?
"Defend" themselves against Israel daring to exist?
Right, Israel just needs a bit more lebensraum in the east / the west bank.
Why are you changing the topic? Yes, Israel using the situation to expand into palestinian territory is also despicable. But that doesn't magically make military, militia or terrorist attacks against Israel an act of defense.
If you want to condemn Israel's actions then the bare minimal requirement is not being even worse. At which countries openly supporting terrorists and calling for the destruction of a neighbouring country fail by definition.
Worse? We have numbers for the respective body counts. They probably killed more Palestinian children in the last 8 months alone than Israeli victims in the entire history of terrorism against Israel.
Israel had decades of superior military power to
culturally genocidere-educate Palestinians and create peace. Instead they chose fascism, oppression, and violence against their neighbors.And again you changed the topic and now it's about body count and not who actually attacked the other and who is defending themselves.
If you need to redefine a problem every single time you try to make a point either your answer is simplified bullshit or you start with your conclusion and then adapt everything else to support it.