5d ago

It's Women's Fault

Memes @lemmy.ml

miss_demeanour @lemmy.dbzer0.com

5d ago

It's Women's Fault

198 comments

The other side of that coin.
- What's the toxic female equivalent of Andrew Tate?
  
  LMAO let's not pretend like places such as /FemaleDatingStrategy don't exist. Misogynists and misandrists are two sides of the same coin. If I have no problem saying that misogynists like Andrew Tate are shitheads, then you can admit that man-hating misandrists are also shitheads.
  And don't you start telling me "Oh, but woman-hating misogynists are worse" because then the conversation turns in to the "Oppression Olympics" and all people do is focus on arguing about who has it worse instead of focusing on actually fixing anybody's problems. Both misogynists and misandrists are bad, and both should be condemned.
  
  misandry doesn't real
  
  Misogyny and misandry are unfortunately both very real and very bad.
  
  we live in a patriarchy. there is no such thing as misandry.
  
  ~~we live in a patriarchy. there is no such thing as misandry~~ I am a misandrist bigot, but I don't want people to call me out on my bigoted behavior, so I'm going to claim misandry doesn't exist.
  ^ Fixed that for you.
  Extremist beliefs such as yours are sadly a big reason why Democrats lost the 2024 election.
  You are part of the problem. Do better.
  
  So, no answer then?
  
  So, no answer then?
  Oh, you got your answer. You just didn't like the answer - Probably because the answer acknowledged that men's problems actually exist in this regard, and you don't like that either.
  You know what I didn't like? My ex beating the shit out of me, and getting away with it every single time because just because she's a woman.
  
  Yep, that's horrible and illegal. And she got away with it because the US is systematically sexist. The patriarchy sucks for us men too, I'm afraid. It demands us to be strong, unafraid, and impossible to hurt.
  Feminism actually addresses this. Tate doesn't.
  
  Tate doesn't.
  He never said he supported Tate.
  He also never said misandry should be countered with misogyny.
  He pointed out that misandry is the other side of the same coin as misogyny, maybe so that you can see the issue with OPs gender war slop.
  His position has been consistently that both are bad.
  Don't straw man him.
  
  But you don't see how the misandry leads to the loneliness epidemic?
  
  "Leads to" is way too strong. Hierarchy, capitalism, provider expectations all those play a huge role that on their own would be sufficient to cause the issue, if those were gone then the misandrists could just be ignored. What misandrists do have a rather large part in though is hindering that the problem gets addressed by people who otherwise do oppose hierarchy, capitalism, and normative gender expectations.
  
  I don't understand how that relates to what I just said.
  
  Yeah, I think I have my threads crossed. I started by asking who was the toxic feminist equivalent of Tate. To show that there isn't a toxic feminism industry. Just a group of very annoyed individuals.
  The toxic male industry makes the situation a LOT worse. Money pushes ideals.
  
  Andrea Dworkin.
  "Equivalence' of does not mean "same-same", here, female aggression patterns are quite different than male ones. Bold "accept me as dominant, I'm telling you don't show up or else" vs. plausible-deniability "oh someone must have forgotten to invite you", "We didn't think you want to come". Apologies to any gals out there reliving high-school trauma right now.
  To breach a broader topic: The very fact that a sentence like "all masculinity is toxic" can even be defended. When it's defended, then generally as "Well we define "masculine" not as what men do but as whatever is toxic in society" -- and then conveniently sweeping under the rug that that is not how "masculinity" is understood in any other context. As said: Plausible deniability. Motte and bailey: You can say a misandrist thing, have it understood as misandrist by your fellow misandrists, then, when called out, say "no you don't actually understand do you even feminism read theory you're a misogynist for misconstruing me".
  The worst thing one can do? Explain it openly. That does not just attack the concrete thing itself, but the very tactic of plausible deniability. It's, admittedly, the nuclear option but sometimes plain necessary.
  Cue "No this isn't happening".
  
  Tate belongs in a jail cell. Period. He is human garbage who makes the world a worse place to live in.
  I believe feminism is important nowadays, especially during the Trump years. The government is literally targeting women's rights. That is unacceptable.
  I might disagree with feminists from time to time, but I realize that overall, their hearts are in the right place. I can certainly not say the same about Tate and his ilk.
  
  LMAO let’s not pretend like places such as /FemaleDatingStrategy don’t exist.
  FDS has nowhere near the same reach as Tate, or other manosphere influencers.
  And don’t you start telling me “Oh, but woman-hating misogynists are worse” because then the conversation turns in to the “Oppression Olympics” and all people do is focus on arguing about who has it worse instead of focusing on actually fixing anybody’s problems.
  Yes, they are both dicks. But one group has active control of the most powerful government on earth.
  
  Yes, they are both dicks.
  Stop. Right there. That's all you need to say.
  Cut off that other crap about men "running the most powerful government in the world". I guarantee the average man does not "run the world". I sure as hell don't. Do you? No? Then stop.
  No more saying "My side has it worse, so your side doesn't deserve to have your problems addressed", neither gender should have their very real problems ignored.
  There are no winners in the "Oppression Olympics", only losers. The first step towards not being a loser is to stop thinking like a loser.
  
  Cut off that other crap about men “running the most powerful government in the world”. I guarantee the average man does not “run the world”. I sure as hell don’t. Do you? No? Then stop.
  I never fucking said that, liar. We were talking about misogynists and misandrists (this all started with talking about Tate and FDS, remember?) , and I said the former were running the most powerful government in the world.
  
  "Liar"?
  How about instead of having an attitude problem with me, we both agree that neither men nor women should be abused and both genders have unique issues that, in a healthy society, would be acknowledged and addressed?
  Or are you just here to argue with someone?
  
  You are the one arguing in bad faith by straw-manning me. You entered this thread with a whataboutism. And you have been up and down this thread accusing anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of "Oppression Olympics" or that they don't believe men's issues exist.
  
  You are the one arguing in bad faith by straw-manning me. You entered this thread with a whataboutism. And you have been up and down this thread accusing anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of “Oppression Olympics” or that they don’t believe men’s issues exist.
  ^ Translation from Snippy to English: "I'm not here to actually engage in healthy debate: Rather, I'm here to pick fights and "win one for my team". Also, I hereby volunteer to be on TheFudd's block list, because I am incapable of having a civil discussion."
  Not cool. Do better.
  
  Was it so hard to address what I actually said?
  
  I mean the simplest explanation is that they did not reply to you, unless you're using multiple accounts, they replied to a different user
  
  It's giving "All Lives Matter"
  
  Oh? Because I've experienced domestic violence at the hands of a woman.
  Are you telling me that my life does not matter?
  
  No, but weaponising that fact to shut down discussions about gender issues is a shit thing to do.
  Like yeah, that's terrible, and you're choosing to use that to invalidate other people who go through that? Wow.
  
  you’re choosing to use that to invalidate other people who go through that? Wow.
  Wrong - And knock off the pearl-clutching. I'm literally the one who just said that the whole "Oppression Olympics" mentality is toxic and needs to go.
  Don't misconstrue my message. This is not a zero-sum game. We can address the issues of both genders at once, and there's nothing "all lives matter-ish" about saying that.
  I'm starting to get the idea that you aren't here to speak in good faith. If you're just here because you want to win an internet argument for "your side", go elsewhere for that.
  
  I'm not here in good faith? Bro you entered this thread with a whataboutism, and everyone here agrees that what you went through is horrible and should never happen, but it appears to some of us as though you're operating with the intent of conceptually separating domestic abuse and gender from each other, which is unhelpful because it's usually built in no small part upon gendered dynamics. Jesus fuck
  
  I’m not here in good faith?
  No. You aren't. And your snippy little attitude problem, along with you misconstruing everything I say, is proof of that.
  I will take your angry little diatribe as you conceding the argument, and volunteering to be on my block list.
  Not cool. Do better.
  
  That’s the reason I hate that saying so much.
  It’s just a true statement. All lives DO matter.
  But the hateful sub-text of the saying basically poisons compassionate people against what, in a vacuum, is just a basic moral value I hold dear.
  
  I'm vegan, too. But I don't feel constrained that the utterance "All Lives Matter" now has negative connotations when delivered outside the context of universal empathy. People who say "All Lives Matter" are not expressing empathy, and struggle to access theirs. It's disingenuous, they DON'T think that all lives matter.
  
  In an ideal world, BLM would have switched to chanting "All lives matter" without skipping a beat: Deny the assclowns their slogan, simultaneously say "yep we're people, too, part of 'all', get used to it", simultaneously, ally with other groups the US police walks all over, like neurodivergent folks.
  
  In an ideal world black people would be treated with the same respect as everyone else and there wouldn't be a need for BLM to exist in the first place. The reason for focusing on black people instead of everyone is because they aren't treated equally. 'All Lives Matter' is a slogan to avoid acknowledging that black lives also matter.
  
  Are neurodivergent folks treated equally, with equal consideration? "Existing while not being able to respond to BS demands" is a crime that exists in the US. There's a bodycount to back that up, covering the whole spectrum of spectrum disorders.
  That out of the way: Why give the enemy a slogan and exclude your allies? What possible gain would that bring about?
  All Lives Matter’ is a slogan to avoid acknowledging that black lives also matter.
  Because it was claimed by fascists. That's the only reason it has that meaning. Because it was given up, not claimed by woke folks. Words, slogans, don't have meaning in themselves the meaning only exists in context. "All lives matter" is a fascist slogan because it got chanted by fascists, not because it's fascist in itself. If fascists shout "chocolate pudding is tasty", what does that mean? I have no idea but it surely doesn't bode well for black folks.
  You don't have to fucking explain to me that "All lives matter" got appropriated by fascists. I fucking know. I'm complaining about how BLM let it be appropriated, how the wider platform let victory be snatched away from under their fingertips by semiotic illiteracy that made MLK spin in his grave. Man was way ahead of
  <currentyear>
  .
  
  If you think BLM let it be appropriated then you don't understand how appropriation works.
  
  Yeah, looknat the SAVE act and whose voting rights will be impacted by that. Women and transpeople, mainly. But they want us to think they are wittle victims because no one wants to be around a fucking bully. Amd they make fun of women's loneliness epidemic no problem - the cat lady rhetoric. So they can stuff it.
  
  Amd they make fun of women’s loneliness epidemic no problem - the cat lady rhetoric. So they can stuff it.
  Great point.
  
  The Female Dating Strategy users back on the old site.
  
  That sub was satire. If you didn’t like it, imagine how life is all the time for women.
  
  I used to say twitter until the Musk bought it.
  Probably bluesky since it's basically old twitter.
  
  I man a person who's financially incentivized to push the agenda.
- GamerGate-tier slop. "tumblristas" or whatever have nowhere near the level of influence, power or damage to society as the manosphere. When was the last time you read about one shooting up a school?
  
  GamerGate-tier slop. “tumblristas” or whatever have nowhere near the level of influence, power or damage to society as the manosphere.
  By that logic, if someone punches you with brass knuckles then you have no right to complain because brass knuckles have nowhere near the level of power or damage-dealing ability to a person as a gun does.
  
  What? Saying one thing is on a different level is not the same as saying the other doesn't exist.
  
  What? Saying one thing is on a different level is not the same as saying the other doesn’t exist.
  Well, a big part of men's problem here is plenty of people do say that in one way or another - That men's problems in this regard "don't exist".
  I've experienced domestic violence before. She preferred to knock the shit out of me when I was sleeping. I don't care how strong you think you are, you aren't able to protect yourself when you are asleep.
  I have flat-out had people tell me that "men cannot be abused by women, just like how a woman can't r-pe a man" when I've told people about the situation.
  How else am I to interpret that, other than "your problems don't exist"?
  
  Well maybe you should engage with the person you're talking to right now instead of lashing out at arguments made by other people in the past?
  
  I'll engage with people when I feel it might be productive. Nobody likes talking to a brick wall.
- yes, the few hundred people on tumblr who hate all men are just as bad as the incel influencers making millions every year who have sympathizers in many governments
  fuck off
  
  tumblr? Seems like a cool place to me.
  I'm talking about people with these beliefs in positions of power and influence abusing that power and ruining people's lives.
  Just like OP.
  
  edit: I was being an ass. ill shut up now
  in positions of power
  WHERE??? incels are running the US government, what power do your man-haters even have???
  
  The power to ostracize and bully me out of a job for daring to get sexually assaulted by my female boss while being intersex-presenting-male, then continue to bully and ostracize me for the following seven years, fully destroying my life.
  
  Not-so-fun fact: If you call the domestic abuse hotline as a male who's experiencing violence at the hands of a woman, they will just hang up on you.
  Source: I was in a physically abusive relationship and tried to call the domestic abuse hotline for advice, and they hung up on me.
  
  As someone who saw the cops go over to the neighbor's house about 15 times... They don't care about any kind of domestic violence 😊
  
  I refuse to belittle or diminish anyone's suffering who's been through domestic violence. Doesn't matter if they are a man or a woman, I hope that your neighbor finds away to get out of their abusive situation.
  
  damn, im really sorry. I shouldn’t have assumed.
  ill shut up now
  
  What happened to you is awful, and I know this sounds callous but it really isn't... You need to understand that one anecdotal experience does not mean anything statistically. For every situation that you described there are hundreds (probably thousands if we're talking worldwide) of women going through shit just as bad if not worse.
  I know it doesn't make anything better, but I think trying to understand and believe the truth, rather than the thing that makes me feel a certain way, is valuable.
  Either way, I'm sorry that happened to you.
  
  I know. But my anecdotal experience is what I'm still fighting and is my local challenge. That's what I'm facing in my life: women being bigots. That's what I've been fighting for almost a decade at this point.
  Until those women reach out to make amends and help to heal the damage they've caused, their bigotry will continue to haunt me. And I will continue to haunt where I was killed. The fact is that unless these specific women can learn that all women can be and are just as bigoted and problematic as men, my life is stunted. Until then, I'll settle for trying to convince as many other women to consider that they ought to take a serious look at themselves and their actions in the hopes it may help someone else.
  Someone else in this thread posted a link to a book called "The Will to Change" by bell hooks. Unless women start having the will to change, to seriously consider that they might not be above reproach, they will continue to cause pain and destruction in their wakes. My biggest personal issue with what passes for white feminism in the 21st century is that it robs women of the will to change by convincing them that men and only men are the problem. This also alienates men, and fuels the fires of toxic masculinity and the Andrew Tates of the world.
  As someone who is highly self-critical and has gone through many campaigns of self-directed change and growth, I hope that I can convince as many other people as possible to be willing to change and grow, to consider that they might have flaws to address. Because of my circumstances being a woman and being targeted by women, I am focused on convincing women. That means being critical of feminism and directedly trying to put it back on a track of promoting in this world the values of liberation, equality, and healing.
  First step is getting women to admit that there is a problem. Often that involves bluntly holding up a mirror and highlighting problematic behaviours. That is my goal here. I'm also being loud about it and semi-doxxing myself at times because, in spite of the risks of doing so, I genuinely hope that what I say here makes its way back to me in meatspace.
  
  If we upvote one, we should upvote the other. It should go both ways, or none at all

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