The enlightened non-“Tankies” be like
The enlightened non-“Tankies” be like
You're viewing a single thread.
Because almost all of them (not Marx) are authoritarian power hungry dictators/dictatorships? Seriously.... Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights? What about Vietnam? NORTH KOREA?!!! Animals have better rights there. OP is either a fourteen year old, terminally on discord, bullied dude. If that is the case, I'm sorry. Have been there.... However, if this is not the case, then OP is just extremely extremely stupid.
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
Yes, and the majority of East Germans agree.
Why have you linked an article from fkin 2009 lmao. Did you look up "East Germans love East Germany" and link the first article that you saw? What poll is this article referring to? Pewresearch (2019) say something very different. According to their surveys, East Germans have reported a dramatic rise in quality of life post 1991.
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights?
East Germany was literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights. Cuba is now.
East Germany was literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights. Cuba is now
a large part of that was the mass migration of Eastern Germans after unification to Cuba especially doctors. And their belief that it was embarrassing to not have solid gay rights in a socialist country.
I wasn't aware of queer history in East Germany. Thank you guys for enlightening me there. I am also very happy for Cuba for the strides that they have taken in relation to queer rights.
That being said, calling them "literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights" is very dumb. Most of western Europe, Canada and even parts of the US to a certain degree are as progressive as one may get in terms of queer rights, both legally and socially.
Permanently Deleted
In Cuba if your family disowns you after coming out, you can sue them for child support That's the case everywhere lol. Disowning a child does not exempt parents from paying child support. Child support only stops when the parents' rights are terminated by the state or when someone adopts the child.
As for the transphobic legislation, you're right. Which is why I said "parts of the US".
Most of western Europe, Canada and even parts of the US to a certain degree are as progressive as one may get in terms of queer rights, both legally and socially.
Yeah, 80 years later. Compared to a country that has not existed for over 30 years lol. Google what Biden, Hillary or Obama thought of gay and trans rights in the 1990s.
Well, you said "most progressive in history". Which is clearly not true.
I didn't say that
Queer rights in the USSR means that every single socialist project that ever was is... le bad!
I never said that. There were many things that socialist governments did very well. I'm literally a socialist. It would be hypocritical of me not to approve of these policies. Now that being said, I don't feel the need to glorify these same states either. There were MANY things that they did VERY badly. I do not want to replicate these governments. When I say that I want to implement socialist policies, I do not mean that I want to have a great firewall. By this, I do not mean censorship of literally every fkin thing.
I do not have to idolize former or present socialist governments to be a socialist.
I do not have to idolize former or present socialist governments to be a socialist.
Nobody said that. But you have to educate yourself. Otherwise you're just a poser.
And you haven't educated yourself. This is what we are doing, all of us, here right now. We're trying to educate you on socialism.
We’re trying to educate you on socialism
I fail to see how you managed to do that. I did not learn anything new about socialism. Sure, I learnt that East Germany decriminalized homosexuality one year before West Germany. I learnt that the original USSR constitution had legalized homosexuality. I also learnt that this positive trend reversed in the years that followed. I also learnt that there are quite a few of my socialist comrades who weirdly glorify authoritarian states in history (I saw a few defending the DPRK).
I fail to see how you managed to do that. I did not learn anything new about socialism.
That's your problem. Do you see me coming into your house to pee in the plants and break your plates? Frankly we've been very patient with you. And I personally still intend to be. But patience in this case does not mean I also have to be polite.
Do you see me coming into your house to pee in the plants and break your plates? No? What're you talking about?
But patience in this case does not mean I also have to be polite. Okay? Again... what're you talking about?
East Germany deserves to be commended for their efforts to Denazify their territories, in Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti mentioned that they got rid of 80% of the judges in East Germany for their Nazi ties. And they did actually have decent LGBTQ rights
Average liberal response: "Woah wow! Look at this opinion, amirite? Clearly we're dealing with a grade A muggle, amirite? You're stupid. Q.E.D."
No arguments or facts just vibes based ranting. Also most 14 year olds in the West have the same view on Socialist countries as you
Fair. Here r some arguments for you:
- The Berlin Wall: Why wasn't I, as an East German permitted to go west if I wanted to? Why were families separated during the entire thing? Was it to keep the hopeless western Germans from emigrating to the East?
- The Holodomor: Why did the Soviet Union commit genocide against its own citizens?
- Freedom of speech: Why would the KGB be on my ass if I said anything against the State? Why wasn't the media critical of the government? Why was Chornobyl covered up?
- Why did the USSR destabilize Afghanistan?: Wasn't this an act of imperialism? Or were they trying to liberate the poor wittle Afghani children by killing them using cruel weapons like butterfly mines? Did the USSR really need to go in there
- Why do literally all Eastern European countries hate Soviet rule? Had they loved it, they surely would've kept the policies of the USSR, right? Or is the CIA involved here too?
- North Korea: Let's not even talk about them.....
- Why was state enforced atheism a thing in the USSR? I am an atheist. However, I still believe that everyone should have the right to have faith in whatever institutions that they seem fit. Is that dumb? Yes. Should the state get to decide what's dumb and not? No.
- China: Why is the great firewall a thing? Why do they refuse to allow their citizens to connect to the wider world?
Now, someone here is most definitely going to come up with the "but the US did XYZ" argument. And I wouldn't disagree there. However, this isn't a competition of "who's the bigger asshole". Glorifying any states or institutions is plain dumb. As a socialist, I want to do good for the people of the world. I can't do good if I ignore the atrocities committed by the people "on my team".
The Berlin Wall
Preventing brain drain and smugglers. Prices were fixed in the East and smugglers would buy on the cheap in the East and sell for a profit in the West. Berlin should have never been divided in two in the first place, this was proposed by the the western powers to have a foothold for counter-revolutionary activity. It was their ploy, and their ludicrous plans. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Protection_Rampart
Holodomor
see this page https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Holodomor and the one linked at the top there as well.
Freedom of speech
Freedom of speech is a recent asinine invention. Did they have freedom of speech during the Terror? No, because you need to control propaganda and counter-revolutionary activity. You could protest for tons of things in the USSR btw, but you couldn't protest to call for the dissolution of the socialist system. Pretty reasonable.
Afghanistan
The legitimate government of Afghanistan asked the USSR for help against the Mujahideen funded by the CIA. The goal of the US was to draw the USSR in a long proxy war, putting Afghans at risk, to drain their military resources. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Soviet_intervention_in_Afghanistan
If you want to go there the US was the one who had no reason to be there, once again meddling into another country's affairs. They also committed the Highway of Death massacre. I don't get why you care so much about what a country that has not existed for 30 years did some 50 years ago when you have a very much alive and very much barbaric country doing worse right now.
Eastern Europe hates USSR
They don't. I don't know where you get your news but you should look for another source.
The countries that see more benefit than harm were the countries that were mostly left out. A developing country will have unequal development so this isn't surprising. Turkmenistan represented 3 million inhabitants out of almost 300 million. You also have to take into account where these countries came from before the revolution but I digress.
North Korea
Why are you refusing to talk about them? Go ahead. Talk about them. I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna say the exact same thing your "progressive" media of choice is saying about the DPRK. What your school says about the DPRK. What TV says about the DPRK. Things we've heard hundreds of times before that we used to believe too (I hope you don't think we used to live under a rock before we emerged as communists) until we actually started reading source material about the DPRK and realized it's actually not at all like the media says it is.
state atheism
who cares seriously. Plenty of people don't live in secular countries but they themselves are atheists or non-practicing and they don't whine half as much as you do about it. We have communists on this platform living in officially Muslim countries like Indonesia or Iran and they don't give a shit about it. Seems like the most random thing to complain about. Just reeks of western privilege. Do you think people in Tsarist Russia had a choice to be atheist? How do you think that would fare for you when the Field Marshal came by your village to investigate potential revolutionary activities and he, as a faithful Orthodox Christian, learned you hadn't been in church for a month or more. Get some perspective.
Great firewall
So that they could develop their own tech solutions. I don't see what's so difficult about it. Oh, the horror, China does not have access to shitty braindead tiktoks, we need to bring them freedom in the form of ICBMs! Seriously, who gives a shit. Have you asked the Chinese what they think of the firewall? They don't care. They love their local tech solutions, their own social media, and the laws surrounding it. They get a VPN if they want to see whatever the fuck racist crackers are saying about them and COVID-19 conspiracy theories. And then they realize, damn we have it good in China.
I can’t do good if I ignore the atrocities committed by the people “on my team”.
So instead of "ignoring the atrocities on your team" (in your words), you just go straight for state department propaganda. But I don't think anyone here is under any illusions you're on our team.
You seem somewhat reasonable, so I hope you can realize these two things: - you can't bring up anything we haven't heard before and - everything you were taught about communism is wrong; we don't love Stalin for killing Ukrainians, we simply have evidence to show that it did not happen like you believe it did. These are two very different things.
They don’t. I don’t know where you get your news but you should look for another source.
OP said Eastern Europe. Probably, Hungary, Romania, Poland, etc.
Preventing brain drain
So the state should have control over who goes out of the country and who doesn't? Freedom of movement is a human right. You know that, right?
see this page https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Holodomor and the one linked at the top there as well.
Bruh... Seriously? You talk about western propaganda when you link an article that references a website called "StalinSociety"? Come on now...
They don’t.
Uhhh I was referencing Soviet occupied countries like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechia, etc.
Why are you refusing to talk about them? Go ahead. Talk about them
Uggh cuz it's fkin obvious, that's why. Cult leader, no democracy, public executions (source being North Korean asylum seekers. Oh, but they must be western propaganda too, amirite?), suppression of freedom of speech, suppression of freedom of movement, etc.
who cares serious
See? That's your problem. "They fucked athiests, so we fuck them back". You're just like them. I am safe near you right now because I agree with you. What if I don't? Religion plays a major role in people's identities. That's dumb, sure. But that doesn't harm you in any way. Sure, tax the churches. Do all that. However, if someone wants to practice their religion, let them be.
So that they could develop their own tech solutions. I don’t see what’s so difficult about it. Oh, the horror, China does not have access to shitty braindead tiktoks, we need to bring them freedom in the form of ICBMs! Seriously, who gives a shit. Have you asked the Chinese what they think of the firewall? They don’t care. They love their local tech solutions, their own social media, and the laws surrounding it. They get a VPN if they want to see whatever the fuck racist crackers are saying about them and COVID-19 conspiracy theories. And then they realize, damn we have it good in China.
So the internet is just for braindead tiktoks? Is it not for free media that criticizes the government? Is it not for ideas outside the official governmental/societal narrative? Do economically protectionist policies justify suppressing an individuals right to free information/education? I can access Chinese socialism and its workings from official chinese sources freely. Can a Chinese individual do the same via Google without a VPN? I can have e2ee conversations with my friends via Signal (which has no privacy issues too) about communist ideals. Can a Chinese individual say "Fuck the CCP and Jinping the Pooh" on Signal? No, cuz Signal (an open sourced application) is banned in China.
My mistake, I can see now your liberalism is terminal. The only thing we can do is pull the plug. But before I do, allow me this one pleasure:
Freedom of movement is a human right. You know that, right?
Source?
Uhhh I was referencing Soviet occupied countries like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechia, etc.
Source?
Cult leader, no democracy, public executions
Source?
I am safe near you right now because I agree with you
Source?
Religion plays a major role in people’s identities
Source?
Sure, tax the churches. Do all that. However, if someone wants to practice their religion, let them be.
Source?
Is it not for free media that criticizes the government?
Source?
Do economically protectionist policies justify suppressing an individuals right to free information/education?
Source?
I can have e2ee conversations with my friends via Signal
Source?
Can a Chinese individual say “Fuck the CCP and Jinping the Pooh” on Signal? No, cuz Signal (an open sourced application) is banned in China.
Source?
There are people a lot more capable of answering your questions here than me, but I want to link a few videos about the Democratic People's Republic of Korea:
My Brothers and Sisters in the North - A documentary about the lives of people in the DPRK done by a South Korean-German woman that gave up her South Korean citizenship to film it.
Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul - A interview with 2 North Koreans living in Seoul that aren't allowed to go back to the North, despite wanting to.
We Went to North Korea To Get A Haircut - A video from the channel Boy Boy demistifying some stuff by actually going to the DPRK.
COREIA DO NORTE: LUCAS RUBIO - This is a recent interview in a brazilian podcast with Lucas Rubio, a researcher about the DPRK where he talks about the country, ranging from the war to his personal experience visiting it. The whole episode is in portuguese but from the little bit that I tested, the automatic translation to english is decent enough, although it misses a few things and get some names wrong.
YouTube links were detected in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on Invidious, which is a YouTube frontend that protects your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
Link 3:
Link 4:
I don't think a person who writes like you do has any standing to call other people fourteen year olds.
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
you know east germany was the first modern european country to make being gay legal right
And West Germany put gay men back into the camps
Oh wow.... Wasn't aware of this part of history!
What about Vietnam?
What about Vietnam? What's your problem with them, they don't even get as much shit made up about them as the others.
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? ... And you call others children?
Good news everyone, US imperialism is no more: you can marry your partner! (Terms and conditions apply)
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? Well no. Many more things. Queer rights are just one of these parameters that are easily visible in my opinion. Let's talk about freedom of speech however. I can access the internet in any way that I want in Canada. Can I do that in China? Nope! Say hello to the great firewall! I can protest the government (mostly) in western countries. When I do that in China, I get run over by tanks. Tiananmen Square massacre much? Oh... is that western propaganda too now? I can make fun of Biden, Trudeau, Trump, etc. Can I do that in China?
Being a socialist doesn't mean I have to glorify any of the former/present socialist countries and ignore their problems (which there are A LOT of).
It don't mean you have to uncritically swallow state department propaganda either but here we are. You seem like the kind of socialist who wants free healthcare built on the backs of immigrant workers but don't care when your country bombs hospitals in Pakistan or Syria.
Well, I'm an immigrant of color myself. Also, I vehemently oppose the military actions of my country in the middle east. I also oppose Russian aggression in Ukraine for the same reason. Somehow, "socialists" here only agree with me on the middle east part.
East Germany was actually solid, read the Triumph of Evil. West Germany was worse, to be fully honest and would have been just as poor without the Imperial Core banding together to build it back up.
The USSR had queer rights at the beginning of the revolution and after Stalin took over anti-lgbt laws were rarely enforced
What's wrong with Vietnam?
The DPRK isn't perfect but i can guarantee to you 99% of the things you've heard about it are false. Did you know with a North Korean passport you can go to China? NATO prevents expats from North Korea from being accepted to work elsewhere. the "13 haircuts" myth was started from a barber's hairstyle suggestion board.
Just because all of your knowledge about socialist movements come from western sources doesn't make knowledgeable people "terminally on discord" or a "bullied dude." educate yourself.
Okay, so I read up more about homosexuality in the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights#Soviet_Union From the looks of it, it was legally quite open during Lenin, but progressively got worse with time. I don't think we even need to talk about modern Russia's position on it. Let's look at China. Why can't same sex families adopt children?
In case of Vietnam, again.... let's look at suppression of freedom of speech. Why isn't the press free?
The DPRK isn’t perfect... Omg wtf are you talking about? Why then aren't they allowed access to the internet? Why are they still stuck in the 70s? Why aren't North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea? Why is the Kim family in power for so long and uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender? Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang? Or are the videos of that western propaganda too? The DPRK is literally the most dystopian place on the face of this planet.
knowledgeable people Define "knowledgeable people"..... Sure, western propaganda is definitely a thing. So is Chinese/Russian propaganda. Again... I'm not defending the west anywhere here. All I'm doing is refusing to idolize the socialist governments of the past and the present like the USSR. When I say I want a "socialist future", I do not mean that I want the Soviet Union. What I want is something that is very very different than that nightmare.
Why aren't they allowed to access the internet?
You think one of the most sanctioned countries in history that's been spending years and years trying to build cities and roads, you think they'd have time/infrastructure to bring all of their citizens WiFi? Do you know even half of what goes into making an internet network, let alone without the support of other nations?
Why are they still stuck in the 70's?
What do you mean by this? If you mean technology wise, see above.
Why aren't North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea?
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
Why is the Kim family in power for so long uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender?
Google "Juche."
Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang?
What does this even mean, link a video to it, I am genuinely curious as to what this is even referencing.
What I mean by "knowledgeable people" is people who can see past the western propaganda to take a critical look at past socialist experiments. You, clearly, still can't see past things at surface value. Everything is black and white to you. Why can't you look at history, current dynamics, sanctions, foreign pressure, etc, etc. Instead, you go to flinging petty insults at people whose side you should be on! You say you want something that is very very different than the soviet union? Then, I'm afraid you don't want socialism.
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
There's that, but also they are technically still at war with each other (North and South). South Koreans fleeing towards the North have been shot at by their side.
You think one of the most sanctioned countries in history that’s been spending years and years trying to build cities and roads, you think they’d have time/infrastructure to bring all of their citizens WiFi? Do you know even half of what goes into making an internet network, let alone without the support of other nations?
So are you telling me that there is no internet in North Korea? What's this then? A north korean showing how wonderful life is in Pyongyang on Tiktok. So there IS internet access in North Korea for average citizens, right? Or... maybe there is internet access only for a select few individuals, part of an effort in spreading state propaganda. Therefore, is the state prioritizing state propaganda efforts more than an individual's right to free information and media? Forget North Korea. Look at China. Why do they still have the great firewall up? They clearly have very well developed internet infrastructure. Why don't they allow their citizens access to the outside world?
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
I just did. It does permit North Koreans from working abroad. It however does not prevent them from seeking asylum. Why do all North Korean asylum seekers have to smuggle themselves through China and other countries, without being caught to reach South Korea? If South Korea was the one to refuse entry to them, why do they still grant these people asylum?
Google “Juche.”
"Juche as a philosophy includes three basic elements: Nature, Society, and Man. Man transforms Nature and is the master of Society and his own destiny. The dynamic heart of Juche is the leader, who is considered the center of society and its guiding element. Juche is thus the guiding idea of the people's activities and the country's development." How is not any different than fascism? "The Man, the central element that guides society", aka the "Fuhrer". Absolute control on media, "molding and mobilizing the people as communists", aka purging of non-communist ideology and people who take part in that ideology.... Like.... Come on mate....
What does this even mean, link a video to it, I am genuinely curious as to what this is even referencing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i82PBpw2Vg0
https://youtu.be/GkaJlNjS-nM?si=aAp37umVObm_5pyO
https://youtu.be/umO1Sl8HApE?si=5801Q24ZfFW5XzXf
What I mean by “knowledgeable people” is people who can see past the western propaganda to take a critical look at past socialist 'experiments. You, clearly, still can’t see past things at surface value. Everything is black and white to you. Why can’t you look at history, current dynamics, sanctions, foreign pressure, etc, etc. Instead, you go to flinging petty insults at people whose side you should be on! You say you want something that is very very different than the soviet union? Then, I’m afraid you don’t want socialism.
If that is your definition of "knowledgeable" then you're missing one very critical element. You're missing the part where you need to look past all propaganda, which includes Chinese/Soviet/North Korean, etc. sponsored propaganda. Things are not black and white to me. I understand (or at least try to) individual ideas that are good and bad from all corners of the world. The soviet union did some things right. It did many things wrong. I want to replicate the things it did right. I do not want to replicate the things it did wrong. China lifted millions of people from poverty. I want to copy the methods that they used to do this. This does not mean that I want to erect a firewall to prevent my countrymen from accessing the outside world. I want collective ownership over means of production. I want unions to exist. However, I do not want to run over my own countrymen with tanks because they disagreed with me. I am an athiest. I want a society free from the shackles of religion. However, I do not want to outright ban religion. I want free elections. I want to go even further and have direct democratic practices in all possible places. I do not want a state monopolized media. I do not want the President of my country to be President for life. I want socialism. I do not want authoritarianism. I do not want there to be a super powerful class posing as "political leaders". I want public housing, healthcare, education, etc. I want collective ownership over AI. At the same time, I still want to be able to make fun of the President. So on and so forth....
I do not want authoritarianism
begging you to read the Jakarta Method, but I'll give you a quote from it if you won't! (also, read On Authority by Engels please it's so short)
quote here
This was another very difficult question I had to ask my interview subjects, especially the leftists from Southeast Asia and Latin America. When we would get to discussing the old debates between peaceful and armed revolution; between hardline Marxism and democratic socialism, I would ask: “Who was right?”
In Guatemala, was it Árbenz or Che who had the right approach? Or in Indonesia, when Mao warned Aidit that the PKI should arm themselves, and they did not? In Chile, was it the young revolutionaries in the MIR who were right in those college debates, or the more disciplined, moderate Chilean Communist Party?
Most of the people I spoke with who were politically involved back then believed fervently in a nonviolent approach, in gradual, peaceful, democratic change. They often had no love for the systems set up by people like Mao. But they knew that their side had lost the debate, because so many of their friends were dead. They often admitted, without hesitation or pleasure, that the hardliners had been right. Aidit’s unarmed party didn’t survive. Allende’s democratic socialism was not allowed, regardless of the détente between the Soviets and Washington.
Looking at it this way, the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence of a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported -- what the rich countries said, rather than what they did.
That group was annihilated.
- Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method
Here is a copy of "On Authority" on prolewiki.org.
Here is a search for "Jakarta Method" on annas-archive.org
YouTube links were detected in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on Invidious, which is a YouTube frontend that protects your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
Link 3:
What's wrong with Vietnam?