Lemmy.World ToS and the murder of the UHC CEO
Lemmy.World ToS and the murder of the UHC CEO
Hello World,
following feedback we have received in the last few days, both from users and moderators, we are making some changes to clarify our ToS.
Before we get to the changes, we want to remind everyone that we are not a (US) free speech instance. We are not located in US, which means different laws apply. As written in our ToS, we're primarily subject to Dutch, Finnish and German laws. Additionally, it is our discretion to further limit discussion that we don't consider tolerable. There are plenty other websites out there hosted in US and promoting free speech on their platform. You should be aware that even free speech in US does not cover true threats of violence.
Having said that, we have seen a lot of comments removed referring to our ToS, which were not explicitly intended to be covered by our ToS. After discussion with some of our moderators we have determined there to be both an issue with the ambiguity of our ToS to some extent, but also lack of clarity on what we expect from our moderators.
We want to clarify that, when moderators believe certain parts of our ToS do not appropriately cover a specific situation, they are welcome to bring these issues up with our admin team for review, escalating the issue without taking action themselves when in doubt. We also allow for moderator discretion in a lot of cases, as we generally don't review each individual report or moderator action unless they're specifically brought to admin attention. This also means that content that may be permitted by ToS can at the same time be violating community rules and therefore result in moderator action. We have added a new section to our ToS to clarify what we expect from moderators.
We are generally aiming to avoid content organizing, glorifying or suggesting to harm people or animals, but we are limiting the scope of our ToS to build the minimum framework inside which we all can have discussions, leaving a broader area for moderators to decide what is and isn't allowed in the communities they oversee. We trust the moderators judgement and in cases where we see a gross disagreement between moderatos and admins' criteria we can have a conversation and reach an agreement, as in many cases the decision is case-specific and context matters.
We have previously asked moderators to remove content relating to jury nullification when this was suggested in context of murder or other violent crimes. Following a discussion in our team we want to clarify that we are no longer requesting moderators to remove content relating to jury nullification in the context of violent crimes when the crime in question already happened. We will still consider suggestions of jury nullification for crimes that have not (yet) happened as advocation for violence, which is violating our terms of service.
As always, if you stumble across content that appears to be violating our site or community rules, please use Lemmys report functionality. Especially when threads are very active, moderators will not be able to go through every single comment for review. Reporting content and providing accurate reasons for reports will help moderators deal with problematic content in a reasonable amount of time.
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He deserved it, and if you disagree, you’re a corporate shill. Murderers should die.
There are a large number of people on Lemmy who believe that you could be literally Hitler and that a human life is still worth saving. To some, human life is some unwavering near-godlike thing that nobody should ever take away.
But I like math. And I know that sometimes a -1 gives you positive values.
But I like math. And I know that sometimes a -1 gives you positive values.
It’d sure be nice if this guy’s death would result in fewer people being denied life saving care for spurious reasons, but I’m definitely not holding my breath
Already has in a sense, looking at the Blue Cross Blue Shield anesthesia rollback.
If that's where it stops, maybe we'll see a trend with deposing CEOs of malicious organizations.
Oh I bet it has helped at least a few. It won't be long lasting, but some adjusters will have this pop into their head when they're considering denying coverage for something they know they shouldn't, and it might help influence them to make the right call.
If things get better for a week while the insurance companies try to hide from the fallout, hundreds of lives will be saved or made measurably better.
If one harmful CEO's murder makes society better for a week...
I'd be banned for finishing that sentence.
If only two people's lives are saved as a result of it, it's a net positive.
I mean, if it were to become a trend, I’m sure we might see some sort of results. (Hopefully this is within the spirit of the new ToS.)
His death alone won’t change anything, what will change this is something that violates TOS to mention.
Public healthcare is against the TOS to mention? 😱
How you can get public universal healthcare in a system designed specifically to deny it in order to make money is.
No I meant like, public universal healthcare would be a solution for the US. Instead of their private one. 😅
I agree that it would be. But enacting it and the methods necessary to do so are what I think the other guy is referring to.
Yeah, because a CEO is ultimately just another employee in shareholder capitalism. If the shareholders want more money, and of course they do, things will continue as usual after this brief, unplanned change on the board. I'd fully expect anesthesia not being covered to happen too, just not right now, they'll wait for marketing to says it's safe in a couple months.
Remember that time BCBS was gonna stop covering anesthesia, and then reversed that decision within 24 hours of this CEO getting robloxed?
But I like math. And I know that sometimes a -1 gives you positive values.
I really like this, I'm stealing it.
Hard to compare some shot CEO to Hitler imho
Not hard at all. Both responsible for many millions of needless deaths while holding power.
One side follows rule of law, while the company and shareholders he is working from require him to maximize profits at the cost of the insured customers.
The other side caused mass destruction across europe, millions dead, millions displaced, left countries in ruins and starving, gassed millions of Jews and caused mass chaos.
If he was to excel the expectations of the people he worked for he was supposed to decline health treatments. If he started performing worse for the shareholders he would've been at fault in the eyes of the shareholders and thus replaced.
Hitler on the other way acted on his own accord. There were no democratic institutions above him or really any to hold him accountable. The healthcare system on the other hand can be changed in a democratic system and political pressure. A dictator like Hitler certainly not through peaceful protest, as those were answered with violence and suppression
We all die anyways too lol
There are a large number of people on Lemmy who believe that you could be literally Hitler and that a human life is still worth saving.
There's a disturbing number of people on Lemmy who are on board with Hitler, alive or dead, generally speaking.
So obviously the last part can be turned around, right? If we had reason to assume you kill 5 people later in your life, it's worth killing you now, right? Or what is the cutoff value?
(mind you I'm not disagreeing with the underlying statement, but who gets to make the judgement call?)
Good thing no assumptions have to be made. CEO's policies had already killed hundreds of thousands of people.
Yeah that's why I said I'm not disagreeing with the underlying statement.
Advocating murder says nothing about the murder victim's character, and everything about yours. It's like how charity says nothing about the people you give to, and everything about you.
I'm sorry if this isn't straightforward.
Ask the ashes of Gaza’s hospitals how helpful a moral high ground is.
I have noticed that the people who are like "He's a HUMAN BEING! How DARE you! He had a FAMILY!" Are often the same ones who spent the last year acting like genocide was no big deal.
Liberals will use a military-industrial complex to celebrate a good economy when the poor are forced between medical and rent bills, or eating this paycheck.
Murdering brown people is good for Geopolitics and bottom lines, so it's moral and just. Self defense for millions of Americans as a wake up call is bad for the bottom line, so it's evil and unjust.
Really easy to generalize a group like this. I've been opposing both the humanitarian crisis and genocide caused by Isreal as well as this cowardice murder of a CEO that changes nothing. I'm also against the medical insurance system in the US, I just think this action doesn't do shit. It takes real energy to protest and mobilize people to make real change possible but that seems like too much for a bunch of people on here
Really easy to generalize a group like this.
Hence the qualifier "often".
The way its presented is as if everyone or even most people are like this. "often" might be true but it isn't really an argument in that case if you mean it literally
Your gripe about the CEO's killing seems to be that it doesn't change anything. The people I described aren't arguing that it doesn't change anything. They're centrists who don't want to change anything. They're arguing like the hypocrites they are that this CEO's life was precious and how DARE anyone extract any epicaricacy from this, when just a little over a month ago they screamed that anyone who wasn't as on board with genocide as they were must be trump supporters.
Have you considered that I wasn't talking about you?
I personally think even in this case a precious life is lost. I haven't dug into the potential use of AI to deny claims which is highly unethical. I come more from an approach of utilitarianism: Every life/lifetime has some sort of potential joy and value to it. If for example a regime falls and a dictator causing a lot of loss of value (in this case life and quality of life) dies, the equation is a positive one if people get to live longer better lives. The dictator is the main reason for suffering.
In the case with the CEO he isn't the main reason for suffering, rather the system is. He has to bear part of the responsibility but his death doesn't have a positive outcome in our equations because the death changes nothing. He also isn't fully responsible for the system which is the root problem of the health system.
I myself also believe generally murder is in nearly all cases wrong, and does while I am against the Genocide in Gaza I do think you're at least partially talking about my group and generalizing it to make an obscene argument. Your example is actually perfect valid and if a person doesn't care about genocide/death in gaza they can't claim the moral high ground if they only value this kind of life. Its also distracting a bit from the main point of life and especially a life of good quality having value.
I personally think even in this case a precious life is lost.
Then we have nothing to discuss.
Advocating murder doesn't say anything about the victim's character, and it doesn't have to. The victim spoke for himself, making 8 figures by denying >30% of claims. The world is better without him, and it would be even better without more people like him. Hopefully that happens because other people like him see this as a sort of Ghost of Christmas Future and start getting their shit together like Ebeneezer did
Good point: everyone who advocates killing billionaires is a revolutionary with a hero's spirit. Advocating murder of billionaires means your character is great.
It's genuinely hard to recognize when a rule that almost always applies doesn't apply to the specific situation at hand.
Killing bloodthirsty rich people who are beyond the reach of the law and can't be stopped any other way is a valid exception to the otherwise valid rule that murder is bad.
Yup, you're right. The idea behind a legal system includes making murder an obsolete tool for defending and securing the freedom and security of each person. But when morally corrupt billionaires actively dismantle said system through propaganda and corruption of politics, murder becomes the only type of violence that defends the will of the violated, the only force capable of the otherwise forceless. It is not even the punishment that legal murder deserves, but pure self-sustainance.
I'm sorry, definitely on the fence philosophically about the line in the sand with vigilante killing, but wtf are you trying to say about charity and what it says about the person? I'm imagining someone sipping on their expensive tea sitting in their "designer" chair reminiscing about their grand-papi's charity advice. Meanwhile, inheriting a large bank account and looking down on anyone extreme enough to illicit actual change in a defunct system that you benefit comfortably from.
If you're unfamiliar with the realities of charities or meant something different than I apologize
It's crazy to see the stark difference in
- CEO killed and that's bad, you can't say anything negative about dead people with families
And
- President of Syria is dead and that's good, we should all be able to agree that Freedom Rings with the execution of this human filth
Real mixed bag of moderation from a community that seems overwhelmingly in favor of killing certain kinds of people and extremely touchy about other kinds of people.
If you doubt this, stop and do one simple thought experiment. What would you be allowed to post on Lemmy if police identify, track down, and execute the CEO Slayer?
It's all down to the instance owners political compass. However they 'feel' is how the rules are made. They're treading a very dangerous line given how this platform is still in its infancy and we all just migrated from reddit after their owner decided to do the same.
If you lift the hood of Lemmy up too far, I think you're going to find a lot of the same cockroaches underneath.
I had a feeling that was the case. Going to have to switch instances and set my own up and only federate with ones that aren't so censorship heavy.
If you want a US based-instance
- https://discuss.online blocks hexbear and lemmygrad
- https://lemmy.today does not block anyone
If you want a non US instance
- https://sopuli.xyz blocks hexbear and lemmygrad
- https://lemm.ee has a very short blocklist
Thank you kind stranger! I actually started a hexbear account just to see what that instance was all about... but those people seem ... somehow beyond psychotic, hard to even classify because of how unhinged they are. It almost reads like satire half the time but not in a good way. So I just want to thank you for giving instances that block that toxicity.
Hexbear is something. !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works can be useful if you want to have a look at what is happening there
Ahh you see this has all been already settled for you, take the case of Twitter.
Calls of violence are not allowed on Twitter! Wow so simple right? What if there was a notorious user who was also a US President and made a call for violence? Well... guess what Twitter clarified those rules by saying:
You're allowed to call for violence if you're talking about America's foreign policy.
That's why you can say "death to Assad" but you can't say "death to healthcare CEO". It's all propaganda anyway. While there are liberals who truly believe "all lives matter", they're few and far between, most liberals use civility as cover for their ideology. That's why healthcare CEO death is bad, but Assad death is good.
You’re allowed to call for violence if you’re talking about America’s foreign policy.
Cool cool cool. Glad we got that cleared up. Liberty, Whiskey, and Sexy are back on the menu.
Hey the really cool question is: when is .World going to start complying with German law and purge all the pro-Palestinian content because it's "antisemitism"?
Depending on which community you're in, mods are already doing it.
I'll never understand this bizarre stance people have where corporate billionaires, millionaires and shit get a magical pass from the people. These scum, influence and infect countless of lives by one swift decision that could happen in a minute to even the next day. They are operating on an entirely different level than anyone else's and the only other people that can understand them - are other millionaires and billionaires.
So what if one piece of shit CEO gets gunned down? I wish it'd happen more often, it'd send an empowering message. Trump could've gotten gunned down and that would've been the same level. I wouldn't weep.
People forget these things until they hear the stories of their friends, their family, their friends' family .etc all are struggling, suffering and on the edge of their lives simply because of one way or another - the fault of these entitled and rich shitbags.
I'm not excusing or condoning the actions any murderer takes. Life is taken of another life. But I will make exceptions to the rule and the gunning of this CEO is one of them.
Exactly that. And anyone shutting down the conversation is just siding with them.
I excuse this guy’s actions and hope it’s not just a one-time target. Shit has to change. Let’s trade in a few hundred for a few million saved.
Look, I excuse this guy action, and I'll never shed 1/10th of a tear for the CEO And I'm rooting for smiling man to not get caught. But in Europe, we gave this prohibition about calls for hatred and murder. It's culturally strong. Notice that it didn't prevent us from guillotining a king or two. Anyway, give lemmy.world admins a break. There are laws they're meant to comply to and we're a vast fediverse. Better keep your anger for our actual enemies.
I left the instance because one of the mods was defending the decision to remove people discussing the Adjuster and said it was for God to judge.
I drew the line personally at someone using their religion to justify moderation.
"Only god can judge you. BTW, I'm judging and removing your comments."
That comment was exactly why i moved to dby0. That shit was gross.
Adjuster is a class in an MMORPG I assume?
No, that's what people online are calling the guy who shot the CEO.
How can I be angry when they silence my anger and allow them to continue profiting on the suffering of others?
If I understood correctly, they're not silencing your anger. They're complying with the "no call for the murder of a specific person", and limited apology of murder, which is a common norm in Europe. You're very welcome to shout that CEO are parasites and we know what do to with parasites.
This, for example, does not violate the TOS, as far as I'm aware.
How can you call for murdering a specific person who's already been murdered?
This is how they keep us in line.
Funny, because these laws are based in large parts on normal citizens being attacked and called to be murdered, and hence laws were passed to make such things illegal. Sadly, and this might surprise you, underneath the CEO reptiloid skin is a human body, and hence they are subject to those very same laws.
It's also important to keep in mind that you need to be more specific in your calls: CEO is a title that even people in smallest companis can have. We all intuitively know that we mean the bad shitheads when we say "CEO" in disgust, but there are small people CEOs that would not want to be called on to be murdered just because we think ACAB (All CEOs Are Bastards). Likewise even billionaires - if very rarely and naturally you don't hear about that since they keep a low profile - can have positive effects, like the couple that had a big hand in how reforestation in Scotland has actually succeeded far faster than any other country has managed, simply by being up all the land from the private owners in one giant swoop. Are billionaires worth keeping around, conceptually? No, but maybe these come last? 🤷
Exactly that. And anyone shutting down the conversation is just siding with them.
Not the point of the admin post up top, mind you. As so often, if you're an adminsitrator, it really does not matter fuck all what you think about an issue, it's what your server wants to, can or has to think about an issue.
You had 25 upvotes when I loaded this page. Then I upvoted you. In the few minutes it took for me to find your comment, and then upvote, the refreshed tally is now at 36. It's been maybe a minute since I loaded this page innitially.
I don't even believe in the death penalty for most murderers.
But when you're murder count would make any serial in killer that did it with their bare hands instead of an email in all of history, with the cold calculation of a sociopath, there's really nothing more to say.
I can empathize with murders of passion, even misguided, ignorant hatred as that was usually something impressed into them, but murders of "We'll if I murder these thousands of people, I can increase quarterly profits by 2.4%! Score!" then it becomes impossible. It's like trying to empathize with a computer devoid of any humanity.
I wouldn't disagree, but I don't think the perpetrator deserves to go free either.
Who decides who deserves it? How many denied claims qualify to deserve to be killed? 100? 10? How about 2? How about 2 that didn't kill anyone but made the persons incapacitated in some way? That's a slippery slope, and in these current times of misinformation and troll farms I wouldn't like people to be classified as "deserving to die" by the internet, specially when a big chunk of society is easily manipulated.
So, numerically, I couldn't figure this out easily to an exact integer. BUT, it's very easy to figure out when taken to extreme integers.
I'd term this something like a "morality margin of error". We should all struggle with questions like the trolley problem, weighing one life against five, debating the complicity of the action, etc. There shouldn't be any easy shortcut answers to deciding the validity of life. But if there were TEN THOUSAND PEOPLE on the track that the trolley is headed down, and only one on the other, then those morality questions absolutely should get much easier.
Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the allies killing
HitlerNazis during WWII?Uh, technically a nazi killed Hitler.
Yeah, and the guy who killed Hitler got executed by the Nazis for it
No, he got executed by a Nazi to avoid the fate of Mussolini.
True, it's been too long since high school 🤦♀️
Not taking sides here, honestly, but if the tally is at the very least "tens of thousands" and it is implicitly central to the argument being made, arguing over whether it would be valid if it was "maybe 1" will not connect.
You decide. What's the #?
Shit.
Hahahahahahaah yeah man... Everyone loves yelling into the abyss of the internet until they're offered the opportunity to be responsible lol