I'm a bit like this, but really honestly the institution of the US wasn't all that great even in the context of ending slavery. Lincoln (and especially Johnson after) killed radical reconstruction, which was looking like it might make revolutionary change in the status of PoC. Instead they went mega-soft on former confederates, handed power pretty much right back to them, which in turn directly caused the Jim Crow era etc. I highly recommend anyone interested to read "Black Reconstruction in America" by W.E.B. DuBois
They also were still committing genocide against the indigenous peoples of America.
Despite Lincoln's soft initial stance on Reconstruction, it's impossible to know how his opinions would have developed, considering the circumstances that arose in the rebellious states after the war and the bullet going through his head. Reconstruction managed to survive, after all, and thrive under the Grant administration, which even passed a law against segregation in public accommodations and pursued a peace policy with regards to Native American polities. It was only after Grant's administration that the gains were walked back and power returned to the former slaverocracy.
I don't think "yeah his actions kinda sucked but maybe he would have changed if he kept living" is a reasonable argument.
And I said radical reconstruction. Like land seized from slavers and given to the newly freed people (and keep conditions such that the freed people could actually keep that land), former confederates jailed and barred from ever holding office, reparations paid, etc.
Grant was still soft on Confederates, though certainly better in most aspects than Lincoln or Johnson. But a president does not a country make. Perhaps despite Grant the measures taken during his presidency were woefully inadequate and blunted.
As far as his treatment of indigenous peoples, well this quote from his first inaugural address is enough really. "the proper treatment of the original occupants of the land, the Indian, is one deserving of careful study. I will favor any course towards them which tends to their civilization, Christianization and ultimate citizenship"
When it turned out that hey, maybe the destruction of their culture and religion isn't really what they wanted- Grant's feelings were quite clear in this 1872 letter to General Schofield: “Indians who will not put themselves under the restraints required will have to be forced, even to the extent of making war upon them, to submit to measures that will insure [sic] security to the white settlers of the Territories,” - this is still absolutely genocide.
He was also the President under which the US stole the Black Hills in what is now South Dakota. First he offered to "buy" them from the Lakota and other tribes, and then when refused he sent the army in to steal them. (Though the tribes put up a damn good fight, repelling the invaders once before Grant sent reinforcements)
Y'all fought a war to end slavery. Slavery is still alive and well in the country. Who won the war again?
Can you elaborate on how there's still currently slavery in America?
Google for profit prisons. People are being thrown in these things for next to nothing to keep the numbers up and from there they are forced labor. Hell multiple judges have been caught being paid to make sure they get people sent to jail.
This is 100% slavery and it's 100% legal. On top of that... The number of slaves that were active in this country back then is a fraction of the number of people that are currently in these for-profit prisons, many of them for next to nothing.
Slavery is alive and well in this country and it's not going anywhere.
Easiest example is for profit prisons. Next is prison made products.
13th amendment. It's baked right in.
IKR especially considering the space program, shipbuilding and aerospace & automotive manufacturing explosions down South in the last 30 years. To name a few:
-
Airbus
- Mobile AL
- (somewhere in FL)
-
Austal USA - Mobile AL
-
BMW - Spartanburg SC
-
Boeing - North Charleston SC(whoops...bad example) -
Ford
- Atlanta GA
- Norfolk VA
-
GE Aviation (somewhere in NC)
-
Geely (owns Volvo Cars) - (somewhere in SC)
-
GM:
- Shreveport LA
- (somewhere in TX)
-
Haas F1 team (somewhere in NC)
-
Honda:
- Swepsonville NC
- Greensboro NC
- Lincoln AL
- Timmonsville SC
- (some transmission plant in GA)
- (some parts facility in GA)
-
Hyundai - Montgomery AL
-
Kia (somewhere in GA)
-
Mercedes-Benz - Vance AL
-
Nissan
- Canton MS
- (somewhere in TN)
-
Volvo Trucks - Dublin VA
I'm probably missing a Toyota plant in Texas. Ole Miss aided with the HondaJet program.
-
The overwhelming majority of antebellum Southerners did not own slaves. The Southerners that did did not fight on the fight on the front. The people whose deaths you celebrate were victims of propaganda and conscription.
The insurrectionists that stormed the capitol were also 'victims' of propaganda.
Such 'victims' they were and are willing to kill US law enforcement to over throw the legally elected government of the United States.
Such 'victims' that they'd like to relegate women to second or third class citizen positions in society.
Such 'victims' they'd like to should migrants at the border and anywhere else they can find them.
These people; they're the same people: You have no obligation to offer charity to a moral position that a reasonable person should know better than to have taken.
To be fair, the insurrectionists weren't drafted with the threat of incarceration or death
Yes, this is all true. My comment is a very, very basic application of Marxist history. The ruling class has always fought their battles through the proletariat. Nobody born in the antebellum South came into this world with a desire to own other humans or one day to be needlessly slaughtered in defense of such an institution. A lifetime of propaganda and social manipulation from the elites taught them that.
None of the people you describe were born with hatred, either. They were taught to hate by the 1% ruling class. They are victims too. Identifying a victim of a greater injustice does not excuse the microaggressions they commit as an effect of being a victim themselves.
Historian Joseph Glatthaar’s statistical analysis of the 1861 volunteers in what would become the Army of Northern Virginia reveals that one in 10 owned a slave and that one in four lived with parents who were slave-owners. Both exceeded ratios in the general population, in which one in 20 owned a slave and one in five lived in a slaveholding household. “Thus,” Glatthaar notes, “volunteers in 1861 were 42 percent more likely to own slaves themselves or to live with family members who owned slaves than the general population.” In short, Confederate volunteers actually owned more slaves than the general population.
Not even getting into the fact that those who didn't own slaves often engaged in the broader practice of the (ab)use of slaves and aspired to own slaves, and were quite openly fighting to perpetuate and expand slavery.
Not even getting into the fact that those who didn't own slaves often engaged in the broader practice of the (ab)use of slaves and aspired to own slaves, and were quite openly fighting to perpetuate and expand slavery.
Slave Patrols: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol
https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing
Just letting people know what you’re taking about
So you're saying that 9/10 did not own a slave? Sounds like an overwhelming majority to me. The quote from Glatthaar ( Here's the link, because you didn't cite it yourself ) also cherry-picks the most slave-owning army in the CSA.
Not even getting into the fact that those who didn’t own slaves often engaged in the broader practice of the (ab)use of slaves and aspired to own slaves, and were quite openly fighting to perpetuate and expand slavery.
See: victims of propaganda.
I'll copy my reply to another comment. You've seriously misinterpreted my argument, whether you know it or not.
My comment is a very, very basic application of Marxist history. The ruling class has always fought their battles through the proletariat. Nobody born in the antebellum South came into this world with a desire to own other humans or one day to be needlessly slaughtered in defense of such an institution. A lifetime of propaganda and social manipulation from the elites taught them that.
Identifying a victim of a greater injustice does not excuse the microaggressions they commit as an effect of being a victim themselves.
They probably should have just surrendered to the North if they didn't want to fight for the rights of rich white dudes to own slaves.
Didn't they use conscription?
Five days later, the Confederate government passed the Exemption Act, which excused from military service select government employees, workers deemed necessary to maintain society (such as teachers, railroad workers, skilled tradesmen, and ministers), and owners of twenty or more slaves.
Had to look it up cuz I wasn't sure, but that last bit is extremely relevant.
They probably should have just surrendered to the North if they didn’t want to fight for the rights of rich white dudes to own slaves.
See: victims of propaganda.
So? Name a war where the people dying aren't victims of propaganda and conscription? My grandfather was conscripted by the German Army in WWII, but I can still make fun of Nazis and celebrate the failure of the Axis. The majority of people that participated in the Jan 6 insurrection were also victims of propaganda, that doesn't mean I'm sad they failed and it doesn't make it socially unacceptable to celebrate that failure. Southern Pride is Slavery Pride, that's just the way it is.
Good. Dumb chumps who support shit still got what they deserved. Hopefully their lesson on losing isn't lost on future generations. Looking back at all the sides that lost in history, so many are right wing bullshit spitters who can spin some propaganda but have no discernable skills for anything else. Hopefully you learned from history and don't support losers.
Hopefully their lesson on losing isn’t lost on future generations.
Narrator: It was.
So let's continue to celebrate the death of the confederacy, so that no more good people fall to propaganda and conscription
The problem is we didn't drop it when we had the chance, so the first chance they got they rewrote the history books.
The problem is we didn't drop it when we had the chance, so the first chance they got they rewrote the history books.
It's fucking horrific. From the late 1870s to the 1940s, Lost Causers were borderline unchallenged in historical academia. We're still recovering from that.
Yes, I agree, the Confederacy is a stain on the history of America and their desire to own other human beings cost the lives of 620,000 people. Included in that total are 258,000 Southerners, the majority of whom were victims of circumstance themselves.
I believe slavery is an inexcusable, horrible stain on our nation's fabric, but it was the economic engine of the day down South. Not saying that doesn't make it reprehensible: I am merely giving context. Dismantling it at the speed Washington demanded would have ground things to a halt. That's a big reason the South fought. Another issue was gun control.
No, I have never affiliated with any white supremacist or southern heritage group.
I believe slavery is an inexcusable, horrible stain on our nation's fabric, but
Oh boy
it was the economic engine of the day down South. Not saying that doesn't make it reprehensible, just giving context.
"We built our entire society on a system that 6/7 Founding Fathers recognized as evil."
Maybe they shouldn't have built their entire society around an institution that was widely recognized as evil at the time?
Dismantling it at the speed Washington demanded would have ground things to a halt. That's a big reason the South fought.
Yes, the speed of [checks notes]
... not dismantling it at all.
Another issue was gun control.
Fucking what.
Let's imagine for a second that there's a big huge magical machine that generates anything that any American could want. Anything at all! Hunger is immediately eradicated. Health problems begin to vanish. Scarcity is a thing of the past.
Now imagine that we discover that the machine is operated by stuffing hundreds of thousands of human babies into one side of it. They can never leave. Inside, they will be sucked of all their energy and discarded as husks. Parents who try to keep their babies from being thrown into the machine are killed.
Should we take an incremental, slow approach to shutting down and dismantling this machine, knowing that it's driving the entire American economy now?
Or should we just blow it up?
slavery is an inexcusable, horrible stain on our nation's fabric
You could've just stopped there.
On one hand, I appreciate that you've tried to defend me, but this is not the argument I'm making. Slavery was always a morally objectable practice. My comment was in defense of the poor, maniupulated proletariat soldiers who made up the bulk of the Confederate's army and who were sacrificed en masse for a cause they never would have believed in without a lifetime of propaganda.
