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It's a "no true scotsman" but those aren't leftists. Leftists don't praise and try to emulate autocrats. Those are people pretending to be leftists who are trying to co-opt, radicalize, or confuse leftists.
Leftism by definition is opposed to authoritarians.
Some are pretending to be leftists. But some just have a Manichean view of the world that they can't shake. Some people change labels when they convert from fundamentalist religion or blind nationalism, but don't change the framework of their views.
No shit, I have seen people outright denying Houthi atrocities because "They wouldn't do something like that!"
Because the Houthis are opposed to The Great Satan(tm), they're automatically rewritten in these people's minds to be at least acceptable in every facet of their existence.
Some are pretending to be leftists.
Says the liberal pretending to be a leftist.
What do they say that makes you think they're more liberal than leftist?
Just trying to learn, not arguing or anything
Judging the means by which the colonized resists their colonizers is pretty much liberalism on a stick. Resisting colonialism in real life is not Ewoks, Millenium Falcons and happy endings. It's nasty, messy and brutal.
This user literally expected Palestinians to wait for the west's pearl-clutching to stave off Israel's genocide - you know, that thing that has failed to stop Israel for decades now - instead of accepting the logistics and support Iran is obviously willing to supply (albeit for Iran's own geopolitical ends). It doesn't get more Liberal™ than this.
This is literally the kind of white liberalism that MLK criticized in his Birmingham letters - and, having spent a lot of time now dealing with the liberal hive mind here on lemmy.world, I suspect MLK had put his finger on something that is far, far more dangerous and deeply-rooted than the left wants to believe.
I'm 1000% with you. I probably just don't understand enough context of the Middle East conflict to see where he did what you're saying.
How are you inferring that about their views on Palestinian resistance? Are the Houthis like Hamas or something and he's saying it's wrong that anyone would support them?
I'll be honest, I upvoted that comment because I agree with the idea that people might change labels and not actually change their beliefs or how they come to conclusions. I'm removing the upvote now though because I clearly didn't understand it entirely and I've learned I'm not the biggest fan of neo-liberalism. I still want to be able to comprehend what they wrote better so that's why I'm asking.
Edit: I also find it weird to say everyone/most people that disagree with me are fake and malicious. I'd be inclined to assume they're just ignorant or whatever. There's a lot to learn to be a good leftist, imo!
Are the Houthis like Hamas or something and he’s saying it’s wrong that anyone would support them?
Think about what this would look like during WW2. Would rooting for the Soviets to win the battle of Stalingrad make you a Stalinist or even a tankie? Of course it wouldn't - you are just cogniscent of the fact that things would actually get a whole lot worse if the Soviets lose. But that won't stop a whole bunch of fascists (and their liberal sympathizers) from pretending that you are. Not much has changed about that.
When someone is dropping bombs on your neighborhood and murdering people like you right in front of your eyes you don't get the luxury of waiting for a squeaky-clean and Hollywood-perfect organisation to hand out AKs and Semtex - you have to go with what is there. And a lot of what is there aren't the nicest of people because the nicer people either don't have the logistic support to give you anything or are simply dead. If the old PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization - which was a lot more nationalistic than Hamas) was still around, these same liberals would be hysterically demonizing them in this scenario, too.
There’s a lot to learn to be a good leftist, imo!
Not much point in being a "good leftist" (whatever that may mean) in my opinion - I'd rather say be a "good at it" leftist.
That makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the explanation and WW2 comparison.
That last bit was a light joke. When I've asked others questions in the past I've been met with hostility; some people seem to act as though a lot of this stuff is obvious. Maybe it is for some, or I'm just a bit dense
When I’ve asked others questions in the past I’ve been met with hostility;
It's a gigantic weak spot when it comes to the online left - a lot of people learn new thngs that make them angry, but haven't learnt enough not to be toxic about it - leading to what some has called the "Circular Firing Squad" effect. We all go through it, I guess.
The fact that there genuinely are a lot of bad actors feigning "leftism" online doesn't make it any easier.
Think about what this would look like during WW2. Would rooting for the Soviets to win the battle of Stalingrad make you a Stalinist or even a tankie? Of course it wouldn’t - you are just cogniscent of the fact that things would actually get a whole lot worse if the Soviets lose. But that won’t stop a whole bunch of fascists (and their liberal sympathizers) from pretending that you are. Not much has changed about that.
Hey, what's your opinion on Biden again?
Hey, what’s your opinion on Biden again?
Sure you want to go down this road? You know it ends with Biden being compared to Chamberlain, right?
The guy who desperately bought time for Britain to rearm against the fascist menace and who even noted warmonger Churchill said he understood? I didn't realize you thought so highly of Biden! I withdraw my question.
The guy who desperately bought time for Britain to rearm against the fascist menace
LOL!
I didn't realize the slender thread of hope you are hagning onto was this threadbare. Will it even last you till November?
Generally speaking (and impersonally) it usually comes down to the intersection of capitalism and war. Pure unadulterated military industrial complex is a hallmark of American-style liberalism. So if a person identifies with the military industrial complex that will usually be your prime indicator. It isn't perfect but it's fairly reliable with a few exceptions.
That makes perfect sense. Where did they identify with the military industrial complex?
Sorry if I'm coming off dumb. It seems like y'all are reading between the lines/catching some kind of dog whistle, or I just missed something super obvious
I am trying to be diplomatic so I was speaking in general and not about anyone specifically.
Now if you check any given person's post history you can usually get a clearer picture.
(There's just known personalities and prejudices at work here rather than random strangers inferring things on this thread alone.)
The liberal who doesn't believe in the concept of critical support.
edit: Sorry... replied to the wrong post.
OP blames all the world's ills on anyone to the left of Manchin.
Explain the absolute takes on the Russian war by Jeremy Corbin and Noam Chomsky. They have encouraged Ukraine to surrender, which is tacit approval of Russia's invasion by giving Russia everything that they ever asked for
Explain Hassan shilling for Hamas
They have encouraged Ukraine to surrender,
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky has said this.
https://twitter.com/achkhikvadze/status/1786879477919649927
He is just saying Ukraine can't win so it has to accept Russia's terms (which are basically surrendering its sovereignty)
He is just saying Ukraine can’t win
I guess it's just a pure coincidence that it's now perfectly clear that Ukraine can't win, eh?
Ukraine actually can't lose as long as it has the support of the free world
Here's Corbyn doing his job as a Russian asset trying to stop the flow of weapons into Ukraine
Here's what I typed...
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky has said this.
Did you misunderstand, perhaps? Here's what I absolutely did not say...
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky talked about the practical options Ukraine faces so that you can interpret this as "surrender."
Is any of this getting through to you?
Neither of those say what you say they said....
Corbin says he encourages "peace" efforts rather than war efforts, which you know duh everybody does.
Chompsky is similar, why or rather now are you twisting either of those in your head to mean something else?
What the actual fuck? War efforts are what's needed. Because you know, people are dying because of Russian bombs. It's shooting back that saves lives. Defending their viewpoints is basically tacit approval of wars of aggression.
Notice I didn't take a stance I simply stated that what you said that article contained is not in fact the truth.
People who advocate for peace with Russia are in fact advocating for Ukrainian surrender. That's because Russia's condition IS surrender. If they had more modest goals, that would be one thing
Again notice how I didn't take a stance I just said you're a liar. Address having zero credibility at this point first and go from there.
You did take a stance, but you're trying to hide it to appear to be neutral. Which you're not, because you can't see that they are actually supporting Russia by saying Ukraine has the choice to surrender
You can read anything however you'd like, point to where in plain English I took a stance.
I'll wait dumb dumb.
Hassan
You mean the grifter? He knows what he is doing. And he is doing this on purpose.
radicalize
Leftists are radicalized by default, genius.
Stalin would disagree
The modern definition of leftism is socialism and co. And socialism is inherently authoritarian.
Socialism is inherently authoritarian? The ideology where power, ownership of production, and wealth is decentralized, removed from the oligarchs and capitalist elite and given back to those who generate it? That's authoritarian?
I think you, like many who have been subjected to decades of propaganda have equated "socialism" with the failed states that are "communist" in name only, where power and production was centralized to be redistributed to the people, but never followed through with the decentralized part. They're certainly authoritarian, but they are not socialist.
Also communism is a specific form of socialism. Socialism is not necessarily communism. Like how all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Giving the people the power of the economy is authoritarian. That makes sense.
Where is a socialist country run by people instead of a political elite class?
Giving the people the power of the economy
That's called capitalism.
TIL... Elon's Apartheid-catalyzed wealth is an example of "giving the people the power of the economy."
You should come up for air every now and then, bootlicker.
Go buy some vitamins, you have a severe case of brain deficiency.
Don't choke yourself.... just because you like the taste of expensive shoe polish doesn't mean it has to go all the way in.
You're cute and all, but you should seriously consider getting mental help.
Just remember... just because a capitalist parasite pats you on the head while you're rendering them this service doesn't mean you're irreplaceable.
Ah, you have a brain parasite, I see...
is that a joke or is that a serious claim?
Wut?
Do you really believe capitalism gives economical power to the people? And if yes, do you say "people" as "everyone" or "people" as "some people based on some criteria"?
There's no need to believe in facts.
You are not answering my question, Is the fact that it gives economical power to the majority of people or just a certain category of people?
What are you talking about?
I asked you a question just before
You mean like Hamas? Leftists have this oppression totempole, and anyone being "oppressed" are automatically good.
You don't have to be "good" to deserve human rights.
Sure. But at the same time, if you attempt to commit genocide, porportional self defense is fair. The question becomes what is porportional.
Proportional self-defense probably ended before November, though, when the Palestinian civilian death toll hopped up to over triple the Israeli civilian death toll from the Hamas attack.
Well, from that single attack on Oct 7th, but thats just one attack out of many. Its unclear just how many have been killed, and by who.
Not really. Even the highest estimates of Israeli casualties for the entire year don't come close.
Maybe? Hamas clearly gives zero shits about civilians and theres so much propaganda coming out, I wouldnt be surprised to find out Hamas has a higher body count.
Hell, I wouldnt put it past Hamas to delibritly murder Gaza civilians in order to blame the IDF. Hell, didnt they hit a hospital with a rocket?
Ah, the good ole genocide apologist. One missile attack that may or may not be attributable to Hamas invalidates all other evidence of IDF wrongdoing. Look that missile attack could have been Hamas but after the media firestorm died down something funny happened; the IDF realised they could get away with airstriking hospitals. Ever since all Gazan hospitals were beset with airstrikes and raids. Some raids even involved IDF soldiers dressed as medical personnel arriving in medical vehicles. (They only found two militants in that raid btw, both were wounded and being treated) But IDF hitting hospitals was old news and muddied waters, most of the news wasn't interested in it anymore. "Ah but it was Hamas doing that" cries the apologists never explaining why Hamas suddenly is able to use jets or why they aren't using the constant barrage of munitions directed at hospitals and residential areas to attack Israel instead.
After a while, there was that IDF airstrike on an aid convoy. The spacing of the hits meant it was clearly targeted and hamas doesn't have anywhere near the capability and never has. The IDF blamed a few scapegoats said how it was a terrible mistake. But after the media firestorm died down something funny happened the IDF realised they could get away with air striking aid convoys. There's been at least 8 more convoys hit from airstrikes and countless direct attacks from Israeli settlers (who are armed and equipped by the Israeli government) on aid convoys since.
Then there's the mass graves. Multiple mass graves have been found outside hospitals that had been occupied by the IDF after the IDF withdrew. The occupants of these mass graves tended to be in restraints, tended to be women, old folk or had some serious wound. Some have been identified as doctors who worked in the hospitals, others were found wearing hospital gowns with IV tubes still in their arms. Many had signs of recent torture. Some appear to have been buried alive. These hospitals were operating (even under fire) right up until the IDF seized the building.
But it's all a Hamas smokescreen isn't it? It couldn't be that the hatred the Israeli government has repeatedly expressed towards Palestine and it's people is real could it? It couldn't be that the side you picked to support, the one that frequently refers to Palestines as animals, are willing to commit atrocities? It couldn't be since the other side is Hamas a genuinely vile organisation that murders their political opposition, steals aid and launches attacks aimed at murdering civilians. Your side must be the good guys. Since your side is the good guys all the stuff about them doing horrible things must be fake. Right?
I do not support Hamas, I am very tired of having to make that clear. I am very much not on their side. I despise them. They launched the October attack because Iran and Israel had started showing signs of thawing relations and they wanted to nip that in the bud (which worked). They wanted the retaliation they expected. They wanted Israel to make the Palestinians suffer more. It boosts their support when that happens. It's been the same grotesque song and dance for decades. I would love to see Hamas rounded up and tried for their many crimes. They benefit too much from the conflict for there to be peace with them in charge. But the same could be said for the current Israeli government which have helped prop up Hamas because Hamas reduces Palestine's international legitimacy, makes a two state solution (which they are very much against) basically impossible and provides a convenient bogeyman to keep them in power. All the while it's the Palestinian civilians who suffer and die.
You yourself just cut a check for Hamas to indiscriminately slaughter 29k israelis as "proportional self defense" for how far in the red that ledger is over Oct 7th.
Considering they shot a rocket at a hospital and blamed the IDF, I wouldnt be surprised if we're already there. Impossible to know for sure though
People don't like complex problems. And no, I probably don't side with you.
