You're viewing a single thread.
USA failed to stop the drug trade (opium poppy crops) in that country, Taliban comes in a nuke that trade in 1 year, puts in question if the Americans were in fact running the drug trade themselves under their rule.
That's mad. The US would never promote illegal drug trade.
Whitey Bulger: protected by the FBI for decades while being the biggest heroin importer in the northeast
Freeway Ricky Ross: supplied by the CIA with coke from the Contras, in a relationship mediated by a DEA informant
Golden Triangle heroin trade: controlled by the CIA for decades after the Korean War, arming and protecting manufacturers and traffickers, with heroin flown on CIA planes
The French Connection: French gangsters were protected by the CIA and allowed to import heroin to their primary market, the US, in exchange for keeping the port of Marseille out of the control of French communists
La Corporacion: the biggest Bolivian cocaine cartel, the "GM of cocaine", started with the cooperation and protection of the CIA according to a DEA agent whose investigations into them were repeatedly thwarted by the State Dept and CIA
wow, just wow!
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
failed
implies they tried lol
Touche lol
tried
implies they weren’t deliberately making a killing off of it
They were naturally. Opium is historically a tool of colonial oppressers. Asian opium dens were only a thing after the British Empire brought it to their communities. Gary Web famously shot himself in the head twice after exposing the CIA as the one offloading crack into the streets of the San Francisco Bay Area kick-starting the crack epidemic. Drugs like crack, opium, and other highly addictive drugs help maintain control and division among the exploited population. Pain killers and fentanyl are the new Crack Cocaine of our time. Even if they were not making a direct profit off the opium trade at the time, it did them no good to stop it. It only supported their efforts of looting and plundering.
Puts in question? I'd argue it's 100% obvious. The opioid epidemic lines up pretty well with the invasion of Afghanistan.
Permanently Deleted
The US is willing to kill hundreds of thousands (millions) of people for trying to pass things like small labor reforms i.e the Jakarta Method in Indonesia
Americans are the drug trade, the world supply of opium dropped to almost nothing after Americans retreated from Afghanistan and the Taliban re-established their already right-wing, pre-American invasion policies on poppy crops.
The drug war funds the CIA black budget the same way Civil Asset Forfeiture funds your local police department.
Permanently Deleted
Not sure why you're drawing a magical difference between the US military telling its troops to do it and the US military telling some other troops to do it. Both are happening at the request of the US.
Permanently Deleted
It's extrajudicial BOTH WAYS you fucking dipshit. It's not magically different. Both are extrajudicial.
Why the fuck are you treating it differently?? Answer the question.
no more half measures walter
me every time I see this bit account
Permanently Deleted
Tying yourself up into knots over explaining legal definitions to the barrel of a gun.
The rules are made up and interpretations are deferred until after the fact to justify the actions and interests of a state.
Any political or historical education would make this abundantly clear but Americans are raised to believe fairy-tales into adulthood.
Liberals really don't have the tools to pick the world apart, only the most educated and outwardly evil liberals like Kissinger are comfortable being honest with themselves.
No wonder you hate socialists.
Yes it is. What the fuck do you think extrajudicial killing means? It means a killing that took place without a legal judgement. That's it. That's all it means.
You are inventing your own idea of "extrajudicial" here, in which you have decided entirely in your own head that one means "good killing" and the other means "bad killing".
And at the end of the day all of this is just you trying to divert away from the issue - both are killing at the orders of the US empire. You're dancing around this because you're trying to argue that one is more acceptable than the other because you are a nationalist supporter of that empire and its campaign of mass murder, which you view as something to your personal benefit like a rube.
Permanently Deleted
It's a battle because the people the want to kill are defending themselves. That doesn't make it not extra judicial - not that judicial is somehow an adjective that makes anything moral or whatever
I love how debate nerds get so caught up in whether something is legal or not. News flash, laws are worthless without enforcement, and there isn’t currently any entity capable of preventing NATO forces from murdering people whenever they please
Murder becomes not bad if a judge says "murder is okay."
Permanently Deleted
Shoot my ex wife.
"I did not kill that man".
Someone is a transphobe in that example of yours, and when I find out who I'm going to kill them (don't worry it's okay, I have a piece of paper that says it's not extra judicial)
The USA is willing to let other people kill people in Jakarta. The US military is not doing it themselves which is the difference here.
That's not what the Jakarta method is, sorry but you don't know what you're talking about.
The rest of your post compounds on that ignorance.
You can try saying that but you have a giant gap in your history education, and with that, a fundamentally incomplete way of seeing and interpreting the world, and world events.
You don't seem to be aware of Afghanistan pre-American intervention, the left direction of Afghanistan's development (the sovietization of Afghanistan), its former place in the international socialist bloc, or the reasons driving the nation's current relations with China.
Take a long look at America's relationship to the UAE and Israeli right-bulwarks and the general relationship and co-operation between the Soviets and the Islamic regions of the world. For whatever mistakes they made there were strong bonds between Soviets and Islam and together they would have built the middle east into the center of the advanced world again. The eastern republics would have landed on the Lunar South pole well before India did this month.
The US has no interest in mutual and internationalist development, the entire core logic of the American project is post-colonial extraction. There aren't sufficient democratic structures of enough robustness and sophistication to steer the project otherwise. Underlying any and all decisions by the American state is nothing and only capital.
Permanently Deleted
The Jakarta method, underselling it, describes US collaboration with right-wing capitalist governments to violently suppress left-wing organizing toward the transition to a socialist economy and mode of production. The Jakarta method differs from previous interventions with a wildly increased emphasis on daily terror, sexual violence and raising home-grown colonial-born, American trained, armed, and funded, equivalents of Weimar Germany's Freikorp via the convergence of interests between liberals (capitalists) and fascists (capitalists).
You're outing yourself by either not knowing, or purposely omitting, the role of the PKI, the world's largest Communist Party outside of China and the Soviet Union. A varied but ultimately democratic socialist organization historically defined and remembered by and because of its pacifism, and self-disarmament.
This Party came in the wave of the Soviet-aligned post-war wave of anti-colonial revolutions and class consciousness that supported solidified after the Soviet defeat of the newcomer fascist bloc of capital (as opposed to the incumbent 'liberal' bloc of capital) during the second world war. Their destruction came after a string of successful resistances to American anti-socialist intervention immediately after the war. In Eastern Europe, in Korea and in Vietnam. The Jakarta method describes a more sophisticated, and wildly more violent and shocking, fascist response to the left-wing self-organization of former-colonial subject states. An intensity and volume of bloodshed, sexual violence, terrorism, and lies that you're repeating to this day.
Repeating because of something as simple and flimsy as an address on a spreadsheet.
Edit: and yes communists and anti-colonialists have for what you're describing, they're called collaborators. You're describing the administrative state that's left in place to manage the flow of commodities and western capital during both formal colonial occupation and the imperialist post-colonial period of capital penetration.
The US actively supported the killing and provided names of people to be killed, they didn’t just “not stop it” you fucking dingus. They ARE the “world police” and like other police they are murderous scumbags
Permanently Deleted
So you like the US support the jihadists?
“Forced its jackboots down the throats”
Lmfao they sent girls to school and other liberatory things, that’s what got the jihadists (and apparently you) riled up.
it's a good thing girls could go to school
The US military is not doing it themselves
Permanently Deleted
What do you call drone striking weddings and funerals? What else would you call the murder of children? Bombing a hospital to rubble surely isn't extrajudicial murder at the hands of American soldiers? Forgive me for linking wikipedia, but strafing civilians including journalists with attack helicopters must count as extrajudicial murders by the hands of American troops
You are a clown.
Permanently Deleted
Yes, but you see, a judge said the attack helicopter was right to strafe the ambulance full of children. So not extrajudicial like, say, the former and current government of Afghanistan, because only US laws count.
Permanently Deleted
I'm really curious as to how you think militaries operate. Draw me a picture.
As if a militaries entire reason for being isn't arming and training people to pull triggers for them lmfao
uhhhhh, well in my simulator games, super advanced ones by the way (hoi4), you just spam divisions, line them up on the border, and point them. The real trick is to wait for when the green bubbles (good) turn into red bubbles) bad, and wait for a bit. I am very smart.
how many qualifiers do you need for an adjective as boring as “bad”? you are certainly entirely absolutely unequivocally horrible at writing
Answer their response you coward. Use your big brain to refute their argument.
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
"The rest of your post compounds on that ignorance"
So what you're saying is, if I were to hire a hitman to take out your sorry white cracker ass, I would be completely justified and be free of any blame?
I think we should try it
As long as the proper paperwork is filled out, liberals have no problem with genocide.
One of the few times reading something actually made me laugh irl. 'Sorry white cracker ass.'
What do you call drone striking weddings and funerals? What else would you call the murder of children? Bombing a hospital to rubble surely isn't extrajudicial murder at the hands of American soldiers? Forgive me for linking wikipedia, but strafing civilians including journalists with attack helicopters must count as extrajudicial murders by the hands of American troops
You are a clown.
I'm sorry what? What do you think the US was doing in Afghanistan for 20 years. The US loves an extrajudicial killing.
The Taliban have achieved this by offering better prices for food crops, which is what they need due to us sanctions. So it turns out that the us did have the power all along.
Also, that's another thing the us likes to do, starve countries that don't dance to their tune.
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
it must be brutal to be both pedantic and not know what words mean.
US drone striking people over the Afghan border into Pakistan. For 20 years.
Permanently Deleted
Intrajudicial killings are when you blow up civili---I'm sorry, the "terrorists" with a huge number of drone strikes, am I right fellow liberal?
Extrajudicial means a killing without a legal ruling, what do you thing it means? The taleban executing someone isn't extrajudicial, because the government of Afghanistan (the taleban) has ruled that it isn't. Notice how legality in no way informs morality. Also the United States killed a shitton of people extrajudiciously in Afghanistan.
The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially
Lol ahahaha good one! Lmfao
Permanently Deleted
if Americans were willing to accept the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan.
Americans didn't give a fuck what happened in Afghanistan what fucking planet are you on???? They supported carpet bombing it. How old are you? Were you still a child when it started and can't remember what it was actually like?
They never gave a fuck even when they armed the afghans to shoot down Russian planes, they were just a proxy US-Russia war with afghan as puppets.
It was fucking disgusting back then. You could speak to 99 random americans and they'd support bombing the shit out of afghan and killing whoever was necessary to get osama. It was SO fucking different to how it is now with libs at least being performative about not being bloodthirsty monsters. Back then it was bipartisan support for mass killing and obliteration. Nobody gave a fuck.
Don't get me started on the constant omnipresent casual racism.
The first time I realized I was, for lack of a better word, different than the people I grew up around is when one of my high school buddies just casually said we should "just glass the middle east and get it over with". Glassing is a term we got from Halo which means to incinerate an area with such a high heat the surface turns to glass. His proposed method was obviously nuclear bombs.
No one else thought it was an outlandish thing to say, much less a truly abhorrent one.
They don't care, Americans destroyed every building in Korea (the famous "no targets remaining" quote). Giving almost every right-wing group in the country rifles and stinger missiles, to throw the country into a permanent state of civil war, has the exact same effect as carpet bombing.
Minus the invasion consolidating into a left-wing anti-American socialist front, which happened in Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cuba.
A permanent civil war, lead by a right wing government, still allows the export of surplus value which is collected by Americans. A left-wing government would try to keep that surplus inside the country to further develop means of production.
It's called Shock therapy and even some liberals (the most politically educated and articulate) are conscious of this happening.
Henry Kissinger's life work is architecting American interventions that result in right-wing reactions rather than left-wing ones. Give all the right-wing groups guns, they kill the left, the country remains defenceless from extraction, and by the time Americans intervene it's multiple squabbling right-wing militias instead of a united socialist front with an industrial base and functioning anti-air missiles.
A peaceful and united Korea is an unprofitable Korea.
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
ad hominem
whataboutism
logical fallacy
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
bot is hakim posting I love you
How so?
Swear to god you libs are just fed a steady supply of propaganda and are then handed a stock set of phrases you can throw out whenever you feel you might have to challenge your worldview or think for yourselves.
America was the one running the drug trade you absolute fucking dipshit. They didn’t want to stop it because they made bank off of it.
if they were willing to accept the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan
They were, and they did destroy it. What are you smoking?
Ah yes, there it is. The 'stabbed in the back' 'we weren't really trying to win' American military apologia.
Even if you bombed every single building in Afghanistan, you wouldn't have won that war. That's why they stopped doing it. Get fucked you stupid loser.
The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially
go listen to blowback and stop embarrassing yourself in public
The Taliban is willing to murder people to keep them in line. The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit people actually believe this.
Have you read the Jakarta Method?
Permanently Deleted
They are an idiot troll and I feel like I wasted my time reading through their deranged contributions to this thread.
But your book recommendation made it worth it! Thanks!
It is very painful and difficult to read.
Every single person the book talks about is a person like every user here on Hexbear, with the same beliefs and ideals of a world future united and free of capitalist exploitation. It is very painful and very difficult to get through if you humanise the numbers, each with a family that was destroyed.
For any americans looking to seriously break lingering nationalist brainworms they may have I also like:
Yeah, I can imagine. I saw Act of Killing which was similarly brutal to watch for similar reasons.
I don't think I have any nationalist brainworms to break but I'll look that one up too. Thanks!
It makes you go from "The US is evil and the current power structure must be destroyed, but with revolution it can become a force of peace and humanity on the world stage" to "JDPON wen?"
The US was willing to kill half a million Iraqi children to prevent Saddam Hussein from rebuilding Iraq.
Permanently Deleted
"half a million iraqi children" is a reference to the sanctions in the 90s that were explicitly a punishment meant to prevent iraq from rebuilding post gulf war
Permanently Deleted
You're somewhat agreeing - by preventing rebuilding, it becomes a lot easier to build/steal a country's oil refineries. You already admit one invasion was over oil - Surely you can see how invading a country and killing tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians just to steal oil is 'extrajudicial' killing?
The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially that would have bern needed to stop the drug trade.
this might unironically be the funniest and most incorrect statement ever posted. it's so divorced from reality that you must have typoed and meant some other place. the US has not once ever stopped murdering tens of thousands -- or even millions -- of people for the sake of a quick buck. please, dear god, listen to the Blowback podcast. you're talking about the military that firebombed Korea so hard that people had to live in caves in order to survive after virtually every single city was completely and totally leveled, kill 20% of the population, all to institute a despotic police state in the name of repressing every single progressive tendency in the population.
This might actually take the award for Most Unhinged Comment Since Federation. Holy fucking shit.
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
The US military, famous for showing restraint when it comes to extrajudicial murder
Fuck the Taliban and the US war machine, they are both fucking assholes esp. the way Americans ran the fuck away from AFGHANISTAN, but facts are fact, Taliban nuked that trade while the US allowed it to flourished. It does not make Taliban better in general, they are still close minded, uneducated door knobs, just like half the US rednecks.
The Taliban closed the opium trade but the big picture is they are still exporting low-value form commodities (raw oil, ore) instead of retaining enough surplus to develop the means to produce high-value form goods (gasoline, electronics, stainless steel medical needles) which is what a left wing government would (did, 1987-1992) do.
If the U.S Government was unsuccessful in supplying and elevating the Gorbachev clique into power and unsuccessful in arming the Mujahideen+ affiliates (which consolidated into the Taliban), the Republic of Afghanistan would probably have fully secularized and industrialized by now.
Any space for right extremism would have been taken up by universal high education, land-reform, cyberneticist economic planning, advanced high-value production and other zero-poverty + full-employment initiatives.
Permanently Deleted
Literal BS.
This crackdown seems to be successful, causing a significant drop in opium farming. While the ban impacts farmers financially, the long-term effects on heroin markets remain uncertain
Permanently Deleted
Lmao the law isn't some infallible deity. It's a tool of oppression wielded by those in power. The fact that someone got killed, but a judge said it was ok, doesn't mean it's in any way not a murder.
Though I'd like to see the trial of the wedding that got dronestriked, or the many other civilians murdered by the us in Afghanistan.I will extrajudicially run you over with a fucking tank
They aren't in theory just murdering for the sake of murdering.
or in this case as a directive from the WH.
The US DOD didn't want to burn the money of their allies, so they didn't burn the opium fields.
I've heard anecdotes that the US military did protect opium fields/producers because they were anti-taliban. They aligned with regional warlords who were fucking boys and told not to interfere. The anti-taliban warlords made their money from selling opium.
There's a reason Taliban had support in the countryside, they were somehow not the worst option there to a lot of people. Everyone in cities, and all women got fucked over when the Taliban were in charge though, because of all the bad stuff we all know about the Taliban.
And now we're sanctioning and starving the country while women's rights went into the toilet. Sad situation that could've been avoided if America didn't choose to give guns to the worst possible people in response to the USSR interfering there.
Afghanistan is now exactly what it was 20 years ago, a bunch of people did die extrajudicially through drone strikes which strengthens support for the Taliban against invaders that kill people with family members, and the government propped up by the USA fell immediately. All that happened in the mean time is war profiteers got richer.