[drunk theory question] do you all think revolutionary masculinity is an oxymoron? if not, what would it consist of
[drunk theory question] do you all think revolutionary masculinity is an oxymoron? if not, what would it consist of
was discussing this with a friend of mine (she's an anarchist but she actually organizes and shit). she was saying there can be no such thing as revolutionary masculinity because the two things are contradictory. but i'm a marxist so contradictions really butter my bread.
i think in a utopian, communist world gender identity would be completely different, to the point where it might not even be legible to us today, but my question is more about how we get from here to there. basically, can we men find a way to not be shitheads in such a way as to bring about communism, or does that not even make sense
feel free to dunk on me if this is a dumb question
Death to America
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Having no left answer to masculinity means handing over teen boys to the far right, and effectively kneecapping your primary demographic for what becomes the fighting age of revolutionaries.
It's utopian behaviour.
The left absolutely needs to present something that is attractive to young males interested in the topics that usually end up filling the "masculinity" niche: Fighters, how to get girls, how to be brainier than other people. Andrew Tate is attractive to them for being a top fighter, he crosses over with mra and pua shit that segues boys into the right through the getting girls segment, and Jordan Peterson type stuff fills the last one.
The left has absolutely no answer to this because it's being utopian over the topic. It wants perfection but you simply can't do that with this topic. There needs to be a transition. We need healthy role models that fill the role of masculinity to compete with the far right and then we can eliminate it once they're defeated, otherwise it's just handing hordes of these boys over to them with no effective opposition.
I'm not sure why this is so complicated. It's not like communists are lacking in male role models. Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Tito, Castro, Che, Kim Il-Sung, Ho Chi Min, Obama, etc. I'm not even saying they were all perfect politically or personally, but it's not like we're struggling to find famous men. And a lot of them were fairly traditionally masculine.
It's not like communists are lacking in male role models.
Obama
Do you know anyone better at picking up ethereal communist bisexuals?
He may not "technically" be a communist, but he is a Kenyan Muslim married to a trans woman, and for that he gets my support
Ignoring the, uh, "Obama" comment, the problem with these people is that most of them are dead. That means that people are going to have a much harder time identifying with them.
Interesting that you believe "Obama" is still alive
Regardless if they have good masculine traits, they’re old and dead. Boys have historical role models but they also want and need living ones who are living and succeeding in today’s society and standards. What message would you give if all the people you look up to are dead and lived in a society that no longer exists (either physically or culturally)? It seems rather depressing and makes people nostalgic over TRVDITION instead of focusing on the present.
It's a sort of belief of exclusively and upholding the partiarchy as if there is something inherently "special" or "unique" about their biological gender having do to with their talents. That being born with a penis grants a certain authority and natural skill that being born without a penis has. Like Marx wouldn't have been Marx if he was born Female. Which we all know now simply isn't true.
There are plenty of strong women type, organizers, philosophers.
One could argue that BECAUSE of the partiarchy and BECAUSE Marx was born with a penis, people raised in patriarchal doctrine saw Marx as more of a natural leader as their PREJUDICE told them a women could never lead.
This is the stuff we need to root out and say it's ok to put partiarchy down and not just because it's
HER TURN, but because it is now recognized as an archaic discrimatory belief system that hurts both men and women alike railroading percieved or actual gender down a socially constructed path.If you want to reach "chuds" you can make an argument patriarchy negates meritocracy and they so deeply value meritocracy as it is a central lie anglo society is built on. It might short circuit their lobsters and rats
.Yeah and you can double your army if you conscript women
Ynow I think this way of thinking is incredibly flawed but I'm not clever enough to say why. Having been exposed to the alt right pipeline and weirdo redpill mgtow mra nonsense as a young lonely excluded teen it just never really grabbed me. Because its entire concept was predicated on hating women.
When I would speak to men suckered into this way of thinking it was like I was speaking to an alien i simply didn't understand it. And i think the core of it was purely just mysogyny. These men aren't looking for a role model they're looking for reasons to continue hating women. They don't need a better role model they need to stop dehumanising women and realise they are people and the rest will follow.
Also i don't think its accurate to say we have no good "masculine" role models. Hasan exists in all his himbo glory and is very popular. Also you think the right has anyone equivalent? Ignoring Tate what's left? Sneako? Aiden? Og MRA types like the amazing atheist? Thunderfoot? Cmon now, they don't even abide by their own criteria of masculinity
But what I want to say is the core of this issue isn't just some collection of young men who exist in a vacuum with no existing ideology simply fall into the far right for no other reason than cos there's no left opposition they fall into that hole BECAUSE they're already misogynistic and hateful lol.
I agree that misogyny is directly tied to this, but I also agree with @Awoo@hexbear.net that role models for teenagers is the answer. Whenever I'm doing anticapitalist propaganda while talking to men, I always touch on misogyny with it. Because both are related to empathy, someone who is truly empathic will fight both capitalism and misogyny. I refuse to believe teenagers are looking for reasons to hate women, they are angry and rebellious and looking for anything to validate their insecurities. When they find scum like Tate they think they found the bible, not because they understand the ideology, but just because he's contrarian and is talking about things relevant to teenage boys. @immuredanchorite@hexbear.net mentioned how easy it is to flip these ideas and that honestly works because these are kids, all we have to do is make them feel they're seen.
Edit: also this isn't just a social media scene with Tate or whatever, it's everywhere. If the kid looks to his dad, he's a misogynist. If he looks to older boys, they're misogynists. The only answer to validation teen boys get is rooted in hatred for women.
When they find scum like Tate they think they found the bible, not because they understand the ideology, but just because he's contrarian and is talking about things relevant to teenage boys.
It's important to understand that these boys are genuinely looking for an instruction manual too. They want to know how to be "alpha", they want to know how to get girls, and they want to know how to be the genius like some protag from their favourite anime. They're looking for instruction manuals and they find these people who promise to be them. It's exactly how pua took off in the first place and this entire sphere of online influence began with that.
Ignoring Tate what's left? Sneako? Aiden? Og MRA types like the amazing atheist? Thunderfoot?
Have you been to the "manosphere"? There are plenty of "normal" looking guys in that space that are basically saying similar things, but they are not as bombastic as Tate. I hate to say it but this feels like a "don't investigate, don't speak" thing for a lot of leftists, who either like to put their head in the sand or minimize the issue. Awoo is right, and has always been right, the left needs an answer for this. For my part, I've basically lost all faith that the left will be able to reach these men suffering from the "male loneliness epidemic" and in my mind they are pretty much on the fascist pipeline, but hopefully I'm wrong.
"the left needs an answer for this"
Ok you're the left aren't you. Whats your answer? I keep hearing someone has to come up with an answer, what is it? I'd like the hear it
I made a post about this a while back: https://hexbear.net/post/613122?scrollToComments=false. And of course, like most threads actually trying to deal with this topic it got pretty much crickets in responses compared to the usual "is doo doo or poop the proper socialist way to say feces?" type posts (which unironically get like 100+ comments). I've pretty much given up on the left being able to meaningfully tackle male loneliess and to me the fash are gonna win, at least in western countries because they're gonna end up recruiting most of these guys.
The answers are easy, any man from a educational show. Mr Roger's, Steve Irwin, Beekman, Bill Nye, Mr noodle.
This is the most correct answer and it especially rings true in more traditional communities such as those in the global south. We have guerrilla fighters, athletes, musicians, and politicians that are leftists who also happen to be role models for a lot of the young boys growing up. It's a battlefield where they either lean towards us or the fascists.
The American left (and I'm going to guess much of the European left) lacks this. The 20th Century has ended and so have all the great leftist heroes like Tupac and Muhammad Ali. Colin Kaepernick is the closest thing to a Muhammad Ali but he isn't quite the phenomenon that Ali was with his boxing achievements. A lot of this has to do with younger generations growing up with the Red Scare in their societies.
Hasan Piker is a step in the right direction and was probably most effective when he was known as the cool-talking hot guy who effortlessly picked up women. He's not that as much nowadays, though the rumors of him dating Valkyrae would probably draw more men who want to know "how did he get her?" You have to start somewhere and being dogmatic about it will push people away and create pockets of resistance, or worse, draw them to the open arms of the fascists.
It's a big reason why I think promoting gym and fitness culture is important. Attacking it as "Fascist" to a less political crowd that you could have more easily won over will then turn to the far-right. Anybody who argues "B-B-But guns!" Has never been in a fight and doesn't realize how much physical strength can make a difference even with guns involved.
Right?
I hate to say it but that's what these teen boys are looking for when they find these guys, and that's what the left needs an answer to. I know it sounds ridiculous to everyone that opposes patriarchy and so on, and I do to, but an imperfect solution is better than no solution.
The question is how to go about constructing these role models, actionable steps. There must be existing sports people who are already hidden or low-key leftists. I'd argue that turning the existing ones into leftists isn't impossible too, the method to do so however must come in critique of capitalism's effect on self-growth and sports. Turning existing athletes into leftists will come from finding what they care about and what they dislike in their sport and building a critique of capitalism causing it. For some it will just be about the money to them, but for others? I am certain a lot of them are genuinely passion-driven and that is something we can work with.
Mostly agree. I think the primary problem on the material side is a lack of money, followed shortly by a lack of talent - by which I mean skilled people that can conduct public performances of one kind or another.
Ideologically, and mind you that this is generally outside of the fields of work I read through, you have to walk a tightrope between ultra-Left dogmatic purity fetishism and rightist opportunistic grifting.
I suppose the easiest allegory for this would be citing @yugopnik@hexbear.net's left-tube funnel video, and then saying the funnel needs to grow.
In this regard I'd be more in disagreement with this being where the Communist movement needs to focus its energy should anyone suggest it. Individuals or groups making it their passion project to become youtube Comarkiplier, sure whatever, do you. To me, the fundamental focus of the communist movement right now would be rebuilding its connection to the working class in light, heavy, and logistical industry. Having an online presence is good, but only being online limits your pool of people willing to join your movement to internet people.
Banger reply. I need to start thinking about this more. /c/dudesrock when