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chapotraphouse @hexbear.net VILenin [he/him] @hexbear.net

Krauts bandying their genocidal history about like it gives them a PhD in fascism makes me burn white hot with rage

The “best” part about the “Hitler hypnotized us” narrative promoted by the krauts in their bloviating, soporific lectures is how it presents a completely counterfactual history devoid of the violent opposition to and clashes with fascists that characterized the Weimar Republic, all in order to pretend grandpappy didn’t deserve to be blown to a million pieces because everyone supported the Nazis and nobody knew right from wrong and morality wasn’t invented until 1945. Once upon a time I thought maybe there was some element of sincerity in German repentance culture, but no - it’s all self-serving, self-absorbed, self-flattering, self-interested, self- this and that; self-centered hagiographic self-praise that treats their unspeakable crimes as elite status cards to trot out.

These fucking krauts just can’t shut the fuck up about how they have some specialized knowledge of fascism because they’re krauts. Were you there? Were you around during the Nazi era? No? Then I fail to see how you know anything more or have any more expertise on the matter than Joe Pissmonger from Montana. Maybe if you picked up a fucking book sometime instead of insisting that being a kraut gives you special privilege to speak with no prior investigation.

But apparently Teutonic blood gives you divine insight into how fascism works. Looks like they haven’t moved past their Nazi genetic woo after all.

“I’m a German and I’m here to teach you how to avoid fascism by supporting the status quo” how about you deal with your own rapidly Nazifying shithole American province before lecturing others.

Be grateful the very idea of “Germany” wasn’t razed to the ground and scattered to the wind after your dear leader escorted himself off the premises.

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  • Be grateful the very idea of “Germany” wasn’t razed to the ground and scattered to the wind after your dear leader escorted himself out of the premises

    As someone who has to live here, I'm not. I wish it was. There is nothing about being german that I find appealling and wouldn't cast off in moment given the chance. And no this isn't some self-flagellation, I genuinely cannot think of a reason for why I might want to continue to associate myself with this country if I had an alternative.

    This article

    https://jewishcurrents.org/bad-memory-2

    is what finally put in words what I had always vibed and was the final nail in the coffin of what might have constituted a sense of attachment to my nationality.

    • My takeaway from Germany is that most people flying a German flag actually wants to put up a swastika but don't want the backlash.

    • Genocide scholar Dirk Moses named this approach the “German catechism” in a 2021 essay that sparked heated debate. “The catechism implies a redemptive story in which the sacrifice of Jews in the Holocaust by Nazis is the premise for the Federal Republic’s legitimacy,” wrote Moses. “That is why the Holocaust is more than an important historical event. It is a sacred trauma that cannot be contaminated by profane ones—meaning non-Jewish victims and other genocides—that would vitiate its sacrificial function.”

      God that so perfectly explains how I feel

    • if I had an alternative

      Time to bring back the HRE states that were like the size of a single town

    • There is nothing about being german that I find appealling and wouldn’t cast off in moment given the chance. And no this isn’t some self-flagellation, I genuinely cannot think of a reason for why I might want to continue to associate myself with this country if I had an alternative.

      My only suggestion is to consult @juchebot88@lemmygrad.ml.

      If he can’t think of a reason either… we are Scheiße out of luck.

      • Apparently I have been promoted to People's Commissar on the National Question, and as such I will issue an answer: at least you aren't American, like I have the misfortune of being. Wear it like a badge of pride.

        But seriously, I do always caution people against rhetoric like this:

        there is nothing about being german that I find appealling and wouldn’t cast off in moment given the chance

        It's for a couple reasons. First: people mean different things when they talk about "casting off" their nationality, but many of them rest on some liberal notion of a universal subject -- the individual, complete in himself, with real essence unshaped by any kind of broader social group. This is un-Marxist, and (for me most convincing) contrary to Juche. I am no racial or national essentialist, but I think you do have to realize, and make peace with, the fact that the particular society you grew up in will always shape the way in which you see the world, and will do so on a deep level. This way of perceiving will often persist through any ideological sea change. Take Russell Bentley, who renounced his US citizenship to fight for an independent Donetsk: despite being a communist and pro-Russian, the guy is as American as they come. It comes through in any discussion he has or anything he writes.

        Second, when you conflate a people with its government, you cede ground to the enemy. (I'm talking here about a legitimate, materially-constituted nation, not an artificial construct like Israel -- or indeed the US as one entity). In the history of any genuine country, there is always something to be proud of: it may be great, it may be small or meager, but it serves as a germ of the future. It is up to communists of every nation -- Germany or anywhere else -- to discover what is progressive and of substance in their history, and to seek its fulfilment in the present. Which is why I give no prescriptions, other than to say that yes, Hitler was German, but so were Marx, Hegel, Engels, Goethe, Bach. And that the yankee influence in your country really needs to go.

        (You can maybe see how uncomfortable I feel writing this. EDIT: Not because it's a question that shouldn't be addressed, but more because it makes me a Yank dictating culture to other people, and my government already does way too much of that).

        • I think you do have to realize, and make peace with, the fact that the particular society you grew up in will always shape the way in which you see the world, and will do so on a deep level

          I think this is where me being a bit of an oddball comes into play. I am german by birth, but I grew up in Turkey as the lone german in my social network. I look very german though, and it was always clear that I would never be fully turkish. Because of my looks, because of my religion, because of all the stuff I take from my parents like how I act or talk. Even though I dont have an accent it's clear that I am not a native speaker. But since my direct family was my only german setting and all the rest were turkish I am not really german either, whatever that may be. I know more about turkish history, grammar, have a very turkish way of interacting with guests to my home and so on. So for me, my germanness is really my passport and some quirks that I adopted from my parents. But I don't feel any kinship with german people or see this country as my home. So by "casting off my germanness" I mean severing ties with the country I currently live in and an identity I got by birth but dont fully understand or feel connected to. Sure a lot of my "germanness" will follow me wherever I go, I can't get rid of that. Moreso if I move to a completely alien culture, there will always be cultural stuff inaccessible to me. This was painfully obvious during my teen years when my parents kept "embarassing" me because they were using idioms wrong or made some social oddity. People overlooked them politely obviously, since you can't expect a foreigner to blend in always, but as a teen you're embarrassed by your parents constantly anyways.

          But whereas I can sort of grasp what being turkish is like, the "turkish vibe" if you will, I do not see something similar in Germany. There is a certain culture unique to turkish people that is pervasive throughout their country, but I can't identify something similar in Germany. It really feels like a bunch of states cobbled together with their own unique quirks. I feel as foreign in bavaria as I do in denmark. I am not well versed in german history unfortunately, and I mean to rectify that, but for now I can only offer the vibe I get which is that there is no "german" culture. It's weird how much "german unity" gets stressed, in our constitution, anthem and so on, even after the "unification" and I think it's because we aren't really. There is a constant need for people to identify as something else as well. More pronounced in some parts, less so in others, but typically people see themselves not just as german but as "thuringian" or "swabian", the less mutually intelligible the dialect the stronger such an identification and the need to feel superior to some other state, like the battle between swabians and bavarians about pretzels or frankfurters vs thuringian sausages. They get written off as friendly banter but I do get the feeling there is some sort of truth to this enmity.

          German identity stands out as odd when I compare it to the "national" vibes I got from the turks, but also other foreigners. I met a lot of koreans for instance and there was something I felt was "korean" to them that I wouldn't be able to describe. Same for the english, the kurds, the russians, there is typically something that makes me go "they're such a russian" when they do it. But I never got that organically from germans other than some put on stereotypes like the need for punctuality, or rules pedantry, always something which they could just stop if they wanted to. So to me "Germany" really is just the government, because that's the only thing that I associate with it. But I accept that this could very well be because I never was able to form a bond with this culture, that it exists but I am blind to it, that there is more to "being german" than I know. It's also possible that I am more german than I think and that I don't see "germanness" because it doesn't stand out to me.

          I hope that made sense, normally I wouldn't write such a long text that is completely vibes based, but since it pertains to social interactions I had, I think that they do have merit. And the topic of cultural identity stuff is obviously very personal to me on an emotional level.

          As for your discomfort it didn't come through. I thought your position was well-thought out and am grateful for you sharing it. Much cleaner than what I just committed to text.

          • I think this is where me being a bit of an oddball comes into play. I am german by birth, but I grew up in Turkey as the lone german in my social network.

            Here it gets so messy, because one's lived experience can alter things a great deal. I think being raised in two cultures like you've described can actually be an advantage, in that it lets one see outside the parochialisms inherent in any society. Right-wingers will of course say that such an upbringing leads to liberalism and faux-cosmopolitanism, but everybody in capitalist society is in danger of that; and fascists, in my experience, are some of the worst offenders, the libbiest of cosmopolitan libs. For to talk about the "white race" rather than Germans, Poles, Italians, and so on is after all to engage in the most artificial and idealistic of constructs. I think that, as touchy-feely as it sounds, the important thing is to be true to yourself. Recognize, sure, that your upbringing is unusual, but it's part of you; embrace both it and the insights it gives.

            In a small way, I think, I kind of get where you're coming from, because I've never really identified with mainstream American culture. It's as you described modern German culture, artificial and imposed from the top. The flag doesn't stir me; movies aren't really my thing; and the over-the-top brashness and sexuality of American music really rubs me the wrong way. Plus, the performative nationalism of it all -- "we're the bringers of FREEDOM, Yee-HAW!" -- is extremely hard to take seriously, even if you ignore (as most of my countrymen seem able to) the associated crimes and bloodshed. To me, accepting my "American-ness" is sort of like accepting one's descent from a dysfunctional family. I recognize the horrible problems with this place -- the imperialism, racial injustice, settler-colonialism, and so on -- but also accept that, like it or not, I am intimately connected with these problems. Thus it is my duty, not to hold myself aloof, but to try in whatever small way I can to fix them. And there are things to love, not the government or the constitution, but certain small material things: night in the great western deserts with the smell of dust and sage, wandering through a small midwestern town at dusk and mingling with the people returning homeward, sitting at a bus stop and talking to the stranger next to you. It's a strange balancing act, but as a communist I try to maintain it, usually poorly.

            typically people see themselves not just as german but as “thuringian” or “swabian”, the less mutually intelligible the dialect the stronger such an identification and the need to feel superior to some other state

            Take this for what it's worth, because I see things purely as an outsider. But I get the sense that German culture, in its authetic form, has always been local, with "German-ness" itself being largely a literary and artistic phenomena. Hence the saying (by Goethe, I think?) that there existed a "Germany of the mind;" i.e., that Germans had no common political identity, but did share a kind of common artistic language, especially where music was concerned. This is a real, though unusual, sort of bond. It was presumed, I think, that this bond would exist through unification and the annihilating of the old feudal order, and modern Germany would usher in a different kind of modernity: fully of the moment, but also in continuity with the past. This did not happen, because the architects of German unification were, like everyone else in Europe at the time, liberals with absolutely no sense of superstructure and base. Hence the odd, pathetic phenomena of World War I era nationalists helming one of the most powerful countries in Europe and at the same time bemoaning the fact that their culture was disappearing. Even in music there is in the late 19th century a steep decline, with Wagner's Parsifal and Brahms' German Requiem being a kind of swan song. This is all the result of the attempt to remake Germany in the image of England, a modern liberal, capitalist, and imperialist nation; which attempt culminated in Nazism, and the modern German state with its wholly artificial form, not just of nationhood, but of national identity itself.

            (Sorry for the very very late reply -- life, work, and the flu all happened together).

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