Holy shit, lemmitor's annoying liberal self righteousness is off the charts
Holy shit, lemmitor's annoying liberal self righteousness is off the charts
I step out of Hexbear and into another instance for once and immediately get this shit lmao
I was letting off some steam about how sick and tired I am about working a shit job to make some asshole rich, and I made an off hand remark about how my employer probably belongs in a gulag. Further down the reply chain, this lemmitor asshole shows up to send me a whole tirade full of faux concern, breaking out the psychoanalysis to say I'm just an extremist full of unjustified hatred because I must be a bitter loser. Somehow they come up with this nuclear hot take comparing my anger at the capitalist class to a Christian fundamentalist hating gay people.
But the fucking cherry on the top here is sending me this comment as their very first interaction with me and proceeding to instantly block me to deny me the chance to reply at all. I've seen others use the block feature as a means of getting the last word in, but never to get both the first and last word in at the same time. And in the end, this self-unaware lib ends up calling me the overly self righteous one. Perfect.
Tbh, what gets me is that they were so fucking close to getting it. They almost came to an accurate understanding of the fact that my material conditions as a poor person getting fucked over day in and day out by my employer stealing my labor will heavily inform my politics. But of course they never quite reach that point, instead bizarrely veering off into psychologizing me, and acting like this is all just some sort of character flaw on my part.
Rule one: https://hexbear.net/comment/4738025
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someone who was in a good place in life wouldn't want to put people in gulags
Wow @wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com what a revelatory thought! It's almost like everyone's lives are getting worse and the people at the bottom are getting increasingly angry about it! It's almost like capitalism is failing and our numbers are increasing every single day while everyone gets increasingly more and more angry about that?
Wow it's almost like the system is not working and is producing the very conditions that will result in its overthrow!
Wow i wonder if any bearded guy wrote about this occurring.
Self righteous dumbass thinks belittling people at the bottom "your life is shit lol you don't get an opinion on society" is the right thing to do instead of asking why society is failing everyone and producing those of us who thoroughly believe the only way that anything will change is revolution.
The part you're roasting is especially vile because the lib's choice of insult only makes sense if one considers having nothing going on in life a personal moral failing on the part of the sufferer as opposed to, as you pointed out, peoples' objective conditions being shit and rapidly getting shittier.
It's wild how there are neoliberal ghouls on that nominally "leftist" instance. Really makes you wonder if there are some ideological problems with their particular brand of "leftism" that it is so immensely compatible with open chauvinism like that.
Wait, dbzer0 is supposed to be a leftist instance? Every time i see somebody from there comment on hexbear, it's either transphobia, homophobia, or shit-tier geopolitics takes, i would've expected them to be hardcore centrist chauvinists, basically like the brain genius in OP's post.
Isn't it? The instance owner is an "anarchist" and runs a comm for it, as we were all privileged with knowing when they decided to trawl for drama with reactionary bullshit. Perhaps that at least elucidates the main commonality in what we've seen:
shit-tier geopolitics takes,
When they were trawling, there was the classic of ultras and liberals arguing side by side repeating the same tired myths and hyperbole.
im still surprised db0 hasnt defederated from hexbear tbh, defederated from grad a long time ago.
db0 has always had fairly reasonable interactions with people here, and understands the presence of anarchists here.
Like, I've had PMs with them and while we have ideological differences there's a pretty clear understanding that we're still on the same side even if he doesn't want a state.
How he lets these ghouls use his instance is beyond me but it could be that it's not really explicitly leftist but simply run by one who isn't ideologically purging libs. This may be a calculation made to not get defederated elsewhere though. Lemmyworld and others would probably call for defed from it for being "tankie", regardless of ideology. They allow their coexistence because they're ideologically non-threatening.
How he lets these ghouls use his instance is beyond me
"Why my antitankie space draws in reactionaries", every single time.
have they ever elaborated on why they defederated from lemmygrad? i still dont understand why someone would defed from one and not the other
Being explicitly tankie i presume. While this community is definitely mixed. I think db0 had some serious hangups over some of the "anti imperialist" support for russia that existed there, although I assume that line of thinking has probably changed a bit over time.
I also think that constant very vocal conversations about "genocide" probably helped cause it. The uighur shit was peaking at the time and a lot of anarchists were struggling with the liberals screaming about it being a real thing vs MLs very vocally and abruptly (and correctly) denying its reality. Anarchists with those hangups who were influenced by that shit have completely changed their tune since Palestine broke out, their expectations of evidence have been forced to change. Everyone understands what an actual genocide produces in way of media now in a country where everyone has smartphones.
God knows what the taiwan position was vs what it might have morphed into over time. I have a feeling it was probably previously supportive of the liberal position but I'm betting that it has now morphed towards that of "status quo" along with the island's population. Having watched what has happened to the people of Ukraine and what the US is supplying in Palestine it has probably caused a change of heart in terms of what's actually best for the people on that island. The US/Nato position is always the worst possible thing.
A lot has changed in the left since that defed. I'm willing to bet on many of the things that caused it having gone through a change of heart.
db0 has always had fairly reasonable interactions with people here
That is just false, do you not remember the saga with them baiting drama over muh tankies and Stalin apparently sending the red army to kill anarchists in Spain?
In fact, many of our mods/admins identify as LGBTQ+, including myself, and we always remove any posts that we deem to be transphobic or homophobic. It would be great if you could report any such posts so we can deal with them. All instances have to deal with problematic behavior from users from time to time, hexbear included. See example below.
- Please "remember the human" and be kind to your fellow leftists.
- Respect that people have differences of opinion and that every leftist has a place in our community. Discussing differences in theory is fine and encouraged, just don't make it personal. Remember: Sectarianism is liberalism.
I report any incidence of queerphobia or other hate speech immediately, but these reports will always end up with hexbear mods because i am not interested in federation and browse local only. I'm fine with how our mods handle these reports, i've never had anything to complain about in that regard, but i can only report after somebody has attacked my comrades, my community or myself, so if i see another instance causing problems over and over again and making our queer comms less safe, i will speak out about that.
It is also kinda strange to me that you are invoking the anti-sectarian and "remember the human" rules here when i'm specifically adressing reactionary hate speech. Such speech enjoys zero protection on here, bigots cannot hide behind the rules you cite, i know from experience that this is widely understood both by the userbase and our moderation teams. This is a radical queer safer space, not some liberal salon, we do not tone police marginalized people, we do not demand civility towards queerphobes, ableists, misogynists and racists, and anti-sectarianism does not extend to middle of the road policies, particularly not when they are openly capitalist or imperialist.
FYI, if you report one of our users commenting on your instance, we would still get a report usually, unless there is something unique about the Hexbear instance in that regard. And I haven't seen many reports like that in a long time, usually because we ban those type of users immediately. I'm glad you are reporting people like that, and I'd like to know about it if it does occur. We don't tolerate any transphobic or homophobic content from our users.
Nobody is arguing with you that hate speech should be allowable. But you aren't addressing hate speech, you are accusing our whole instance of being a "non-leftist instance" because you claim some of our users have displayed queerphobia or other hate speech in the past. But you've given us no evidence or information we can act upon. It certainly feels like sectarianism when you are jumping straight to basically accusing our whole instance of not being "left enough" on this limited basis.
I just feel it would be more productive to work together to address these sort of issues, rather than being so hostile. I don't care how much more left you are than me, but I do care about how we moderate our instance, and if we can do it better then I'm open to suggestions.
It's really not "productive" at all how you're handling this when @Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com was banned for homophobia just 5 days ago, when i've seen a transphobe from db0 get banned in the same timeframe (sorry i'm not giving you names and receipts on that one, it was something with 420 in the username, not gonna sift through all the shit in the modlog any longer) and you then accuse me of making up fake queerphobia claims for "sectarian reasons". In fact it's an incredibly shitty and hurtful thing to deny my experience with bigottry from your instance like that, but your dismissiveness fits well with what i've seen from you people.
I'd kindly ask you to discuss with our mod team if cross-instance reporting works correctly, which is all i have left to say on the matter because i honestly see no option but to disengage from this conversation. I'm out of here.
Cross-instance reporting does work correctly, and because we are the only instance with a "disengage" rule it is not clear for others. Apologies for any trouble for this matter
Yeah, but that still leaves Unruffled@lemmy.dbzer0.com saying "using gay as an insult actually isn't homophobic" and seeing nothing wrong with one of their users posting such a take in a thread about queer liberation, a thread where the OP expressed his happyness about not being insulted as gay anymore when he doesn't bother to meet standards of toxic masculinity. That's the context the homophobic post in question was originally posted in, just to show you how out of place and tone deaf and shitty that take was. And Unruffled is like "hey, i see nothing wrong with any of that", directly quotes the homophobia apologia that accuses our comrade of taking it too seriously for "being insecure about his sexuality" and expressly agrees with all of it, all so he can continue to pester me with inane bullshit about me being sectarian just because i had the audacity to state my subjective and entirely honest impression that dbzer0 users never came off as leftists to me, which seems to have aggravated him so much that he, as a gay man, excuses homophobia to disprove my point.
I'm not even beginning to get into the absolutely insufferable amount of debate pervertry and the total lack of principle and self respect necessary to act the way he did, it's damning enough that he's shown his entire ass by excusing classic homophobic talking points and toxic masculinity while using his own gay identity as a shield. That's just fucking vile. I know fully well why our comrade started that thread the quoted take was posted in, i've been called gay and the f-slur all my life even before i came out as a trans woman. You do not get hit with this shit by people who "have nothing against gay people", you get hit with that shit because you do not meet cishetnormative policing of assigned male gender roles, which of fucking course also expressly targets gayness in itself, just not exclusively so, because it serves a wider purpose in upholding patriarchal notions of masculinity, but of course that attitude has always been inseperable from homophobia, it was just that it was so widely accepted and normalized that people engaging in it could easily deny their homophobic sentiments and their own participation in the opression of queerness.
And Unruffled openly states, i am quoting him verbatim now, "this is a perfectly reasonable take and not homophobic at all". What's he gonna do next when he comes back from his 14 day ban? Give out free F-slur passes?
I mean, not to directly play devil's advocate but I heard plenty of the 'that's so gay' stuff in high school and even then it was commonly understood to mean silly and stupid (ethics of this not discussed here). If you were actually gay no one gave a shit. Are you 100% sure it's your sexuality they were talking about? Or is that something you assumed because you were self-conscious of it? I am not advocating for either way or saying it wasn't done in hate, I just want to make sure you're not putting yourself through undue hardship.
It seems to be, as a gay person myself, that this is a perfectly reasonable take and not homophobic at all. He points out the common use of the word 'gay' in a common usage in high school. He doesn't try to justify it ethically, just observes that it occurs, and asks if perhaps the common use of 'gay' as a general pejorative may have been the case here, instead of a direct comment on a person's sexual orientation. So, it seems to me that the one example you provided is by no means a clear example of anything, except perhaps of hexbear users immediately making bad faith assumptions about users not from their instance.
And I certainly never said your claim was fake, I just asked you to provide some actual examples, but you have just hit and run while providing no evidence to back your claims of a widespread problem with our instance. I wasn't able to find any reports about any of our users with "420" in their username, but happy to check it out if you can come up with a username.
Did you see the comment in the OP? What do you think of that just going unchallenged? db0 is being a useless contrarian as they usually are, but are you more of an adult?
There's no need to shake our comrade here for receipts when we have vile shit right in front of us that is evidently A-OK in the view of the administration.
I can't see any examples of homophobia or hate speech in the OPs post. All OP seem to be doing is pointing out how toxic your ideology is, where anyone not in the hexbear 'club' is deemed to be the enemy. This has been pointed out on many previous occasions and remains true in large part to this day. I will acknowledge that there are also perfectly reasonable hexbear users, but unfortunately they often get drowned out by all the fanatics.
I don't care about litigating about Hexbear, you can hate it or whatever. What I am complaining about is the wizardbeard guy explicitly disparaging downtrodden people in favor of those who are doing well in the status quo. It's immensely social darwinist, to say nothing of the fact that even anarchists, to my understanding, care about things being counterrevolutionary.
Like, isn't the whole point of anarchism that the status quo is fucked and needs to be drastically changed? Don't you proudly self-identify as a type of radical [i.e. "extremist"]? If so, then doesn't this guy making blanket statements about extremists being scum seem to represent an issue?
But you are twisting his words. He never mentioned 'downtrodden' or 'poor' or 'disadvantaged' or anything similar anywhere in his comments. His exact wording was "[You] have nothing good going on in [your] life", which could mean in your personal life, or any number of things. But of course it was uncharitably interpreted. He used similar phrasing for religious fanatics too.
The point of anarchism isn't to replace one ideologically driven system where workers suffer with another ideological system where workers also suffer. It's to dismantle the apparatus of state and institutions that enforce and police ideology.
The point of anarchism isn't to replace one ideologically driven system where workers suffer with another ideological system where workers also suffer
No one actually says this, put the Bakunin away. My point is that anarchists are their own category of extremists and you can clearly see what he thinks of you. If you still want to cape for that, go right ahead I guess.
It's wild how you guys are so excited to jump to redbashing when it has nothing to do with the subject. Keep telling me about intolerant tankies (actually don't, I don't give a shit what you think).
User reports: Probably iffy on sectarianism.
I don't think this is far enough to warrant removal, but do be careful not to go full sectarianist.
They are really acting like blahaj users now aren't they? "It's okay to be bigoted to the other party if their politics is more radical than yours." In this case replace transphobia with ableism and behind-screen psychoanalysing. I also remember one blahaj mod who, after one of you guys said that ableist mods should be booted, said that booting bigoted mods makes you a tankie.
Rule 3, no?
Shut the fuck up and go purge the neoliberal chauvinists from your instance. When it's actually more recognizable as being anarchist rather than "left-ish with red scare characteristics", we can talk.
"Your specific brand of 'leftism'" did not refer to "anarchism", it referred to your specific brand, which attracts absolute slime like we see in the OP for reasons that you would do well to figure out.
CC: @blashork@hexbear.net this is my reasoning. If insulting someone's boutique nominally-anarchist (actually bidenist) instance is sectarianism, I invite you to take whatever moderation actions you deem appropriate to defend its sordid sanctity.
Well good to know that it's that easy to work around your community rules by just re-labeling the target as "not real leftists". As is tradition of course. Carry on then.
As is tradition of course.
And down goes the paper-thin mask
Well good to know that it's that easy to work around your community rules by just re-labeling the target as "not real leftists".
My sibling in Christ, when you're done pissing your pants over my meanie gatekeeping, try actually reading the comments in the OP. That person is a chauvinist explicitly defending the status quo by saying, in so many words, that all "extremists" are mentally-ill losers looking to power trip. Are you saying that it's newspeak revisionism to claim that a message like that is probably not leftist? Please, tell me where Kropotkin says that revolution is only supported by the bitterest dregs of society and therefore invalid.
Of course you have no problem with your own fucking redbashing, but opportunistically using this shallow patina of anti-sectarianism when it comes to Your Guys is apparently not below you.
Hey, "no sectarianism" is your rule, not ours. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy where the rules are easily bent by just arbitrary relabeling the other side. In truth, you never believed in "no sectarianism". You only use it to enforce groupthink.
In any case, your whole argument above fails since you generalized against our whole instance.
You only use it to enforce groupthink.
Lmao as if we don't argue with eachother on everything here
Yeah lmao what a dumbass, there is at least 1 struggle session going at all times, this bozo is all like:
"MUH GROUPTHINK IS WHEN THERE IS NO TRANSPHOBIA ON HECCKIN NARWHAL REDDIT CLONE!!"
"Ableism and smuglord attitude is bad" is sectarianism?
"That whole instance is full of fake leftists" is not sectarianism?
Not if they're fake leftists
All this self-victimizing when it would be so much easier to just ban a blatant chauvinist, but it's more important to you to own teh sectarian tankies than it is to actually administer your instance according to any set of leftist principles.
All this self-aggrandizement when it would be so much easier to just not generalize based on uncharitable interpretations, but it's more important to you to own teh liberals than it is to actually administer you community according to your own rules.
You're trying to do a "no u" here, but it fundamentally doesn't work on someone who has kept sight of the original object of dispute. The original object of dispute is the vile, reactionary tirade from the user linked in the OP who . . . let me check . . . still isn't banned! No action has been taken against them despite you clearly knowing about their little showing for days at this point.
It would have been so much less effort to say "Right, this user goes against the values of our instance, we're removing them now that this behavior has been brought to our attention," but for whatever reason you've instead chosen to sit here and mewl about sectarianism, uncharitability, hypocrisy, and so on. Don't worry, I know that you're only bringing them up because we profess to care about these things, they aren't actually things that you believe in or you might act on them. They are just conversational currency to weaponize, which is why other people have been calling you a redditor or a debate pervert or whatever, because they exhibit the same behavior of believing in nothing while trying to abuse the beliefs of their interlocutor.
But you can't muddy the waters here, the object of contention isn't being attacked for being anarchist or otherwise "the wrong sect" of leftism, it's being attacked for not being leftist. You can't get around this, because this person is opposed to the most fundamental basis of leftism by treating someone's status as a societal outcast as though it were a moral condition.
'If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.' -- some guy, idk
The heart of leftism is the recognition that there is darkness -- systemic oppression -- and seeking to remove it. The darkness of socially necessitated poverty, the darkness of an enclosed commons forcing every interaction to pass through the hands of rent-seeking middlemen, the darkness of false consciousness turning people against the marginalized and powerless as enemies.
You want this to be about tankies hating anarchists, but that's not what this is about because this dude isn't an anarchist! If anarchism means anything, and I believe that it does, then this guy isn't an anarchist. I don't know what he professes to be, but for any of these ideological terms to mean anything beyond consumer-identity, for them to mean something in a genuinely ideological, it follows of simple logical necessity that it's possible for someone to claim it and for that claim to be false. This guy is vilifying people who are left in darkness; Whatever he claims to be, he is a reactionary.
Furthermore, -- yes, I still have more to say because you've tried so hard to muddy the waters -- I have made no claim as to what the majority population of your instance is. When I am criticizing your instance, I am not criticizing an incident of its demographics, I am criticizing it systemically. Perhaps it is made mostly of anarchists, I neither know nor care, but if it is moderated in such a way where marginalized people aren't protected and this sort of vile reactionary rhetoric against them is allowed to go unchecked, the instance -- not the population on it, but the instance itself, as defined by its administration -- is not leftist. If anarchism actually means something to you, then that means actually having to follow leftist principles and not just cynically use it as conversational currency to attack people you dislike.
I don't hate anarchists. I wish that your instance actually was anarchist, but it evidently is not, given that you're apparently okay with this asshole being on it unimpeached.
It's just that we disagree what comments constitute "vile reactionary tirades". As always hexbears uncharitable interpret so that they escalate, so that they declare "liberalism" and high five in the dunk tank. Your judgements don't mean much outside of this space 🤷♂️
Likewise, not all leftist spaces immediately ban those with even slightest problematic viewpoints. Some of us take different praxis. Whose praxis is best, well let's just say it's not my instance that is pretty much globally reviled as a toxic source of drama and de-platformed from all interaction with the larger fediverse 🤷♂️
Our instance is anarchist, whether you like it or not. And as anarchist, it's also leftist. Your "no true anarchists" is as convincing as your "no true leftist". It's the classic sectarian playbook. Tacitly endorsed by this community
Btw, let me ask you this. Is the Chinese state also "fake leftists"?
Maybe host real leftists then
"It's not sectarianism, when we declare them not real leftists"? Ok then
I’ll spell it out for you a little clearer, since you don’t seem capable of understanding it on your own.
Your entire attitude fucking screams “I have nothing good going on in my life, so I’ve adopted an extreme viewpoint that easily allows me to feel superior to others”.
You see this shit on all sides of the political spectrum. An example you’re likely familiar with and hate would be fanatical/fundamentalist Christians. Nothing truly going right with their life, so they adopt a belief system that gives them an outlet for their hate/anger/frustration where they don’t have to feel bad about it because they are targeting the “bad guys”.
Someone who was in a good place in life wouldn’t be posting shit online calling for putting people in fucking gulags.
You can use all the excuses and mental gymanstics you want, but at the end of the day, you’ve adopted an idealogy where extreme actions are justified and right to take against your “enemy”, and where anyone even slightly advocating for you to slow your roll is instantly redefined as an “enemy”.
You just did that. You start spouting shit about Americans, and when the guy said he wasn’t one you just said that he effectively was one anyway and kept down the path you were already on. That’s absurd.
Anyway, your entire defense for your statements here is that your bad guys are the real bad guys. That’s the beginning and end of it. That type of self righteousness is something to be feared, not something to be championed because you’ve “found the right target”.
Please note, I’ve not made any statement on whether you’re wrong or right in your targeting. That’s a separate discussion.
It has been demonstrated time and time again in historical record the world over, that the fervor of people like you can and will be abused, and shifted towards wider and wider classifications of “targets”.
Anyway, I hope your life situation improves enough someday that you no longer find the need to be a self-righteous asshat on the internet calling for people’s torture. I’m blocking you, so I won’t be around to see it.
"A leftist" apparentlythe "I'm blocking you" at the end is simply
Oh I didn't realize we were all the same person. I stand corrected.
Point 1. dbzer0 instance claims to be leftist
Point 2. Leftists would not allow posts from ableist neoliberal ghouls to be posted on their instance
Point 3. Ableist neoliberal ghouls post on dbzer0
Point 4. dbzer0 does not remove the posts of ableist neoliberal ghouls
Therefore, synthesizing the points above, dbzer0 is not leftist.
Bonus point: when shown the ableist screed posted on their "leftist" instance, the admin responds not with some kind of apology or good-faith discussion but rather
tier debatebro snark."UM, RULE 3?" "OH, I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT-" "OKAY, GOOD TO KNOW THAT-"
Honest question, what do you even get out of this project? What do you think you're accomplishing? What positive effect do you think you can have when you're deploying this dismissive, abrasive tone to anyone trying to engage with you? A problem post has been pointed out on your instance - one among many that form a significant trend - and your ONLY response is to zero in on the person criticizing you to glibly invoke "the rules" to try and shut them up. How about explaining why your instance lets post like this stay? How about reflecting on why people say things like
Really makes you wonder if there are some ideological problems with their particular brand of "leftism" that it is so immensely compatible with open chauvinism like that.
instead of just demanding that they stop saying things like that? At this point, what specifically do you even believe that makes you care about being called "not a real leftist"?
I am not going to debate the typical uncharitable interpretations you peeps do towards all outsider comments so you can and declare them things like "neoliberal ableist ghouls" and then repeat such statements until it becomes the "truth" . I'm just here to point out the hypocrisy of these rules which are bypassed as easily as saying "ableist neoliberal ghouls".
I am also not here to debate my instance. Obviously we're not hexbear and we are differ in how we see things. But we're not the ones claiming hexbear is "fake leftists" so we can turn people against you. But your community regularly does that towards us every time one of you needs to cry about some argument they had on lemmy. If you don't want me here pointing out your hypocrisy, feel free to either keep our instance out of your toxic mouth, or ban us.
I definitely think so. But there will be an argument over what constitutes revolutionary anarchism vs what constitutes the poisoned internet variant that calls itself anarchism but somehow manages to align itself with the US state department on nearly every single issue. I suspect there would be some disagreement over what you are, although I personally see a revleft anarchist with a lot of things still "in motion" so to speak. Like I mentioned in my below comment it's very obvious that anarchists as a whole have radically changed their opinions of previous propaganda after seeing palestine. This widespread collective change in attitude isn't going to stop here it's going to continue to develop with further events in the coming years, we are seeing a fledgling movement not a matured or experienced one.
Point being that the revleft anarchists here hate the nato-anarchists with every fiber of their being so the decision of what is and is not sectarianism when that becomes questionable can be difficult.
disclaimer: not a mod, personal opinion
Rule 3 does not protect neoliberalism, social darwinism, ableism, or other forms of chauvinism. It doesn't protect redditor smugness and debate pervertry. That's what is being discussed here. That's what is in OP's post. And when it comes to other users from your instance, we regularly need to ban them for transphobia, homophobia and imperialism apologia. And you act like a fucking lib defending his racist uncle about this.
someone who was in a good place in life wouldn't want to put people in gulags
The state's carceral system already does it for him.