Traffic Blockade Protests Were a Nuisance. Lawmakers Want to Make Them a Felony.
Traffic Blockade Protests Were a Nuisance. Lawmakers Want to Make Them a Felony.
“Taking to the streets is a core part of our right to protest.”
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'Bout time. This isn't free speech. If everyone with a grievance brought a city to a standstill, we'd have anarchy.
I fully support peaceful protesters with signs on the sidewalk even if I don't with their cause. But their rights end when they infringe on others.
If people protest and it inconveniences or offends nobody, is it a protest?
While I think this style of protest is completely counterproductive and just pisses everyone off rather than bring them to your side, a felony for doing it is fucking insane. You can't lump murder and standing in the road into the same category of offense.
If everyone with a grievance brought a city to a standstill
No, one person with a weird grudge goes ranting in the middle of the road, you slow down and drive around them. When those grievances are popular enough to get so many people to bring a city to a stand still, maybe we deserve to be stopped and forced to listen to them.
Oakland and san fran combined have a total over 1.2 million people. And that's just the cities themselves. The article notes 70 people shut down the bridge between them. That's 0.006% of the population, and I'm generously assuming they all came from those two cities.
I'm not saying it should be criminalized, but in light of those numbers, your claim that if it's an insignificant amount of people you can just drive around rings ridiculously hollow.
Nope, one person is all it takes. It has happened in my city.
Disrupting the public just trying to go about their lives is a particularly ineffective way of rallying people to your cause, though, even assuming it's not outright detrimental. You end pissing off significantly more people than you persuade.
I don't think it should be illegal, mind you, but it's a pretty counter productive way to go about it imo.
That's the point. Get mad.
Miss. They aren't mad at the system, they are mad at the group that blocked them (and often vandalizes their car and threatens them while they are boxed in, safety stopped.)
Stopping ambulances, firetrucks, someone in labor, someone having a medical emergency is not cool. Getting someone fired for being late or not showing up is a dick move.
Go protest outside of a politician's or CEO's home, hurting the average person will only harm the cause.
Protests allow emergency vehicles through.
The article we are responding to notes how some of the protesters who blocked the bridge threw their keys into the water. Even if we ignore the absurdity of jamming up traffic for miles, but magically allowing emergency vehicles to get through ins timely manner, you can't let people through if you can't move your car.
Did you read the article? The amount of people in this thread who straight up want anarchy is insane. I agree it should be a felony these people do not have a legal right to block public roads. No matter what people on Lemmy think.
If the protest causes a mile long backup it can still be much harder for emergency vehicles to navigate the stopped traffic far away, out of the direct control or observation of the protesters.
Bullshit. If you had bothered to read the article you would have seen that people used their abandoned car as a blockade some of them throwing their keys away. You can't move your car for an ambulance when that happens. How can you move a car when you aren't there to move it?
And this helps the cause how, exactly?
Attention to the problem.
You can act like it doesn't work, but the Civil Rights movement had no traction until white people were inconvenienced.
There was a lot more to the success of the civil rights movement than simply blocking traffic.
Sit ins, marching in the streets, and other disruptive actions that are comparable were a significant part of it.
Not being the whole thing doesn't mean it wasn't important.
There's this weird idea that the civil rights protestors were met with people clapping and cheering and waving American flags. They were not. Those protests were wildly unpopular in their time. It was only later on, after they succeeded in getting some change, that the attitudes and rhetoric around those protests changed.
Civil rights protests were effective.
People who like the status quo do not want effective protests.
I'm well aware. I was specifically talking about the modern tactic of sit-ins in the middle of busy intersections and protestors glueing themselves to the tarmac, and so forth.
I never called into question political protest in general, even though that's apparently what people are assuming I said.
The cause is second to the desire for attention.
But the people suffering in the wake are everyday americans. Not perple in charge of implementing changes.
There are more appropriate ways to be heard. Write a letter like the rest of us.
Do the absolute least effective thing that can be ignored in private away from the eyes of the general public.
Great idea!
Yup, it sucks sometimes. And it's slow. But it's the system we have in place for exactly this.
And since it's working as designed, you want to make felons of anyone who wants to use effective means to fix it.
If they're gonna be felons anyway, may as well do real felonies while they're at it.
Yeah if you don't get your way you throw a tantrum and burn everything down. Exactly the kinda logic I expect from someone defending this criminal behavior.
Yeah if you don’t get your way you throw a tantrum and burn everything down.
Yeah you get your own way every time a cop murders a protester.
The way you murdered that strawman argument?
I thought that's what we were doing here.
The Estates General thought sending a letter to the king in France in 1789 would work too.
Spoiler: It did not.
If you can bring the city to a standstill with your grievance then someone should probably do something about the grievance before that mob removes the mayor by force.
Closing one road is not bringing a city to a standstill. We haven't had true mass protests in the US in a long time.
You don't have a right to drive so....
Well ambulances do.
Want to make that a felony? Sure. Most will agree. Make the protest itself a felony because they might stop an authorized vehicle? That's a no from me.
Huh? I didn't discuss crimes at all.
This thread is though. Sorry, just sounded like you were in agreement by providing a counterexample. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of your comment was.
Well I have an opinion on protests in roads, but don't believe they should be criminal.
I personally believe they are unsafe, and set protesters up for tragedy. I think it's irresponsible for organizers to put people out like that.
Next, as a former firefighter and Emt I can relate to the concerns about emergency vehicles. I have personally responded to serious calls where minutes mattered. We were sometimes delayed by normal traffic, so any non natural traffic or... Intentional traffic irks me because innocent folks could possibly die, or have much worse/riskier health outcomes as a result of what could be significant traffic delays.
Please note: I'm not devaluing the causes people are commonly protesting today. They are very serious topics that need attention. I'm just expressing my personal semi experiential opinion, based on my life circumstance.
Unfortunately, if people don't make a big enough fuss then those in power rarely listen. Seems like even protests don't do much anymore. Guess we've got to inconvenience the right people.
Yes I agree with the "fuss" part.
However, the headline practically writes itself:
" protest blocks emergency services. Xyz dies as a result". This would demonize the cause in the general public's eyes, not bring increased caring
If everyone with a grievance brought a city to a standstill, we’d have anarchy.
If everyone made visible in the streets, the injustice that exists in our governance, we'd have democracy.
If you think people's rights are secondary to your commute, fuck your commute in particular.
You don't have a right to commit crime. If they think their opinion is more important because they're being the bigger asshole, fuck them in particular.
I think that guy, recently in the news, pleading with protesters so he wasn't late to court would take issue if someone summed up the critically his life at the moment so dismissively as "a commute".
People don't stop their lives because someone throws a tantrum. You made it others problems; now the courts whom represent those affected will have a legal option.
Oh yes a tantrum. Let's see what people have been blocking streets for lately.
- Genocide in Gaza
- Police killing unarmed people
- Chinese treatment of Uyghurs.
- Gun laws after Mass Shootings
Yup, just tantrums here. Nothing of substance at alllll.
If you want protests to stop, address the issues being protested.
You cheer for dogs and firehoses and rubber bullets and tear gas instead.
So when forced-birth activists block the road to an abortion clinic, then the best way to stop that is to address their issues?
There are already laws against harassment. We don't need to make anyone who marches in the streets a felon.
I'm not talking about harassment. Simply protestors blocking all traffic on a street that has an abortion clinic.
Is it good for democracy when pregnant women can't drive to their appointment?
While we're at it, what about climate deniers blocking access to public chargers, thus stranding anyone using an EV?
Or right-wingers who block off access to bike lanes just to "pwn the libs."
All of these have already happened, by the way. Were they good for democracy?
You're making up hypotheticals that aren't happening when the law is designed to silence civil rights protests.
All of them have already happened.
Abortion opponents block access to clinics. Right-wingers block access to charging stations and bike lanes.
Harassment, trespassing, and illegal parking, in that order.
Police will abuse their discretion if it's made a felony, effectively outlawing only street protests that police don't approve of.
I think you should address their question. What happens when the other side imitates the tactic? Do you still support it or only when your side does it?
I support the right of people to vote and know that I strongly disagree with how many people vote.
Compare what happened with the BLM protests to what cops did at the insurrection.
Cops choose to treat the causes I don't support with kid gloves and causes I do support with brutality already. Making protesting in the streets a felony will only de facto criminalize the behavior for one side.
I don't want all protests to stop. It's a way to express your view publicly.
What does need to stop is the childish selfishness of this civel disobedience to forcibly impose your will over others. The cause doesn't matter; civilized society can't exist if every activist for every cause uses this to make a point.
I don’t want all protests to stop. It’s a way to express your view publicly.
You just don't want them to be inconvenient. So you can ignore them. So nothing will change. Like you want.
What does need to stop is the childish selfishness of this civel disobedience to forcibly impose your will over others.
Yeah, who do people who want cops to stop shooting them think they are?
The cause doesn’t matter;
Certainly never to you. You love the status quo and never want it to change.
You just don't want them to be inconvenient. So you can ignore them. So nothing will change. Like you want.
In my city, there is a guy with a megaphone shouting into traffic nearly every day. Annoying, but I support his right to be there. In another nearby, there is a section known for protests and signs every weekend with dozens of participants. I support their right to assemble. There is a diehard Trumper who absolutely plastered their front yard with signs. I recognize their right as an American. And I have written 3 letters to my local government this year. I have signed ballot initiatives brought forth by organizations I support. This is how you change a democracy.
Yeah, who do people who want cops to stop shooting them think they are?
That's a great argument until you substitute in a cause you don't support. Hmm, what would people be saying if some pro-January 6th-ers took over the bridge?
Certainly never to you. You love the status quo and never want it to change.
We're always changing. It is natural. However, I refrain from emotional decisions and tend to break problems down to their cores. The "cause", whatever it may be, is an emotional trigger employed to justify a course of illegal action. I am entirely unaffected. I have, instead, viewed this event from the perspective of rational logic. This is unacceptable behavior. Period.
Also, side note, thanks for the debate. I really enjoyed it, but I got to sleep. :)
That’s a great argument until you substitute in a cause you don’t support. Hmm, what would people be saying if some pro-January 6th-ers took over the bridge?
It happened in my town. Remember the Trump Trains? Blocked traffic for miles.
I get that you don't like people wanting to do something effective that might draw attention to their cause and are trying to use trumpists as an excuse, but here's the thing: Cops won't enforce this consistently. Trumpists will still be allowed to march, but people cops disagree with won't. I have no doubt that this is the only reason you support making protesters felons, nor do I think that this will stop with protests in the street.
We’re always changing.
And you're fine with that as long as it keeps being for the worse and no one adds any minutes to your precious commute. You want to make people felons on the off chance that you might have to choose an alternate route one day. Your commute is not that important.
I am entirely unaffected.
Then act like it and stop supporting making protesting in a way that hurts your feelings a felony.
If everyone with a grievance brought the city to a standstill, we'd have anarchy.
Yes!! I hope so!
So you support people blocking pedestrians but you draw the line at cars?? Okay