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If you don't see how people are unable to vote for a Democratic party that is shamelessly supporting genocide you have a problem.
Regardless of whether or not you are ok with actively voting for a staunch genocide supporter, you should be able to intellectually understand why people can't approve the Democratic party's unconditional genocide support.
And just to be clear, you understand the consequences of acting like a tantrum throwing child right?
The party of "wipe them all out!", and move the embassy to Jerusalem and recognize that as the Israeli capital runs the country then.
and this is how we got reagan and bush jr. (sure those in iraq appreciate the moral stance) and of course trump part 1
My neck is one of the first on the chopping block. Yes.
It's up to neoliberals to change their politics, if they don't our democracy is fucked anyway. This is the one last chance to try and shock them into understanding how they're failing.
Rewarding Biden with a second term will reinforce that Democratic support for genocide is ok as long as they employ a pied piper strategy and help prop up extreme right-wing.
Rewarding Biden with a second term
And what, exactly, is the other option? Third parties can't win in FPTP. The DNC isn't going to just suddenly pick Bernie, who isn't even running. So you SAY you want change but your solution is to not vote for the lesser evil. This directly helps a fascist get into power.
Ergo: you are a fascist supporter.
The focus should be on changing the Democratic party politics. Nothing else matters because Democrats represent the only potential chance of combatting fascism, but they are not fit to do so with their current leadership and the strategies they're deploying to force their corporate fucks into office. Encouraging them to continue along the path they're on will only lead to fascism.
Their strategies need to change. They don't respond to public sentiment or outcry, they don't respond to reason or or sympathy or compromise, they only respond to real material threats to their power.
I'm not waiting a generation for Democrats to get their shit together. That's a non-starter. They need to change yesterday, if they don't change and just try to strong arm people into voting for evil candidates then the democracy is full dead.
The focus should be on changing the Democratic party politics
Ok but how does getting Trump elected do that? He says he's going to be a dictator Day 1. There aren't going to BE any more elections after that. All your high and mighty speech is just bullshit if you don't vote strategically to prevent a literal fascist.
This is why people who don't vote Biden in November are just fascists. If your actions knowingly help a fascist, you are one.
There aren’t going to BE any more elections after that.
I'm calling bullshit on this. The president is not king and he cannot make himself king.
And if it does happen, if Democrats have allowed us to get to this point they are worse than useless and voting never mattered to begin with.
I'm at peace with the possibility that there may be no democratic way out of this in the end. I'm willing to give the Democrats one last window to understand what they need to do to win elections, but if they can't accept that lesson and they let the fascists walk all over them, so be it.
Then it becomes a time for resistance and revolution. People need to be preparing now, whether it happens or not. Your mentality needs to evolve to meet the reality of your situation.
So now you're willfully ignoring Project 2025, and Trump stating he is going to be dictator day 1. Not only that, but with a compromised judicial and legislative branch, you really are gonna sit there and say:
I'm calling bullshit on this. The president is not king and he cannot make himself king.
You're not sincere, and if you are, I now can see why you're doubling down on stupidity.
No, I'm just realistic. As I said, I'm prepared for the real possibility of Project 2025 (which the GOP is not going to give up on just because Trump loses). Are you? You don't strike me as ready for what that will require from the American people.
Biden Democrats aren't going to confront Project 2025, if they were serious about avoiding that they'd be throwing themselves in front of Biden to stop him continuing his support of genocide.
Notice how Democrats aren't actually acting with any urgency though? How they'll keep repeating that our democracy is at stake but won't make a single compromise or sacrifice to their constituents to ensure they win this election. Do you fucking notice that?
It seems clear to me that you really want this to become a reality even though, as you stated before that your life would be in danger. So again, it's hard to believe that you want to avoid this when you're actively campaigning for the US to be an authoritarian state.
No. I decidedly don't fucking want it, but pretending that I do is literally the only way you'll allow yourself to understand what I'm saying to you because to actually parse the words I'm actually saying you'd have to admit to the possibility that the lesser of two evils may not be a solution.
You'd have to hold that idea in your brain and extrapolate its consequences. And you just can't bring yourself to imagine that, because you don't want to admit what's happening to this country and what groups have been complicit.
So you lie to yourself in real time about what I'm saying, protecting your bubble, projecting your deluded thinking onto me.
I’m at peace with the possibility that there may be no democratic way out of this in the end. I’m willing to give the Democrats one last window to understand what they need to do to win elections, but if they can’t accept that lesson and they let the fascists walk all over them, so be it.
"If the entire democratic party doesn't do what I want, fascists win"
Sounds like what a fascist would say. Go fight your violent revolution in your mind, which is the only place you'll be surviving. Absolutely fucking unhinged.
What I want is, as a basic fucking starting point, a party that does not support genocide.
Yeah, I know, too much to ask right? Why am I sooooo demanding and unbending. It's just some brown people, geez, we kill them all the time. Right guys?
What nonsense. By this time in the election cycle it is too late to change who the 2 candidates are. You sound so incredibly naive with your comment essentially saying “I’m going to just let it all burn down since I can’t vote for the perfect candidate”. Stop your misinformation.
Want a better candidate? Start pushing earlier and in more local elections. Let those candidates build their political careers and move the country left.
My neck is one of the first on the chopping block. Yes.
You acknowledge your life will be in danger if Trump wins, but yet double down on stupidity. I have a hard time believing you.
Because it's not just about my self interest alone.
This is what you need to grasp; you live in a fucking bubble.
You think the house across the street is on fire, but your house is burning down, people are getting burnt alive right now in your house, it just hasn't reached the room you happen to be in so you keep trying to tell everyone that you're ok so they need to stop their hysterical screaming and, not to worry, we all just need to band together and bail water from your bathroom sink to stop the fire. "Don't call the fire department, they'll get my room all wet!"
The lesser of two evils strategy is deluded, it's completely disconnected from reality. Biden democrats are the bathroom sink here. We need the fire department, and that won't happen until you acknowledge that the sink not only won't cut it, but is a counter-productive waste of time.
Absolute shit analogy.
Again, double down on stupidity and see how that goes for ya.
You failed to addess my statement.
If Biden does not win in November, that will mean that Trump has.
There is no magic left wing write in.
So you know you can do an easy action to make some people's lives better, to delay fascism, and save minorities from a plan to essentially wipe them out, but you won't because of principles? Because of some notion that the Democratic party will learn from losing?
You know that they lost in 2020 to a fascist. This already happened and the result was 4 years of hell for every minority group in the country. Why do you think this would be any better, or accomplish anything?
[...]but you won’t because of principles?
No, I won't because the party will not change direction without electoral consequences.
A vote for pro-genocide Democrats at this point is still a vote for inevitable fascism and increasingly worse civil strife.
A delay is only useful if the people you're giving power to will use it to fight. Biden and corporate democrats have proven beyond any dispute that they will not fight. That's how we got here, by relying on corporate democrats to stem the tide.
Ok?
Go ahead and vote for the party that writes "finish them off" on bombs destined for Gaza, then? Or abstain, and get them elected, essentially the same?
I won't be voting Republican. No.
And no, it's not the same. If it was, then a maga supporter could claim that my uncommitted vote is actually a vote for Biden because I didn't vote for Trump. Time to give up on this talking point, it's nonsensical.
It's not because the land-focused voting system we have favors republicans, not to mention gerrymandering.
Also I swear you've forgotten 2020. The same fucking thing happened, people didn't want to vote for a moderate democrat, and so a racist, abusive fascist got elected instead.
The math is literally there, not voting for the closer candidate to you is identical to voting for the other guy.
We have been using small words and slow speaking to explain FPTP to you disingenuous mother fuckers since Nader, just fucking stop acting like you're doing anything except sea lioning because asking these questions in circles forever has better optics than admitting you care more about feeling valid about whatever white kid bullshit you're on than you do about saving trans lives.
Tell me, when was the last time a progressive was in the white house? When have we had a progressive house leader? When was the last progressive majority?
Tell me again where the Democratic opposition to the Patriot Act was? How about FISA surveillance? Hmm, Iraq War? No. Citizens United! Surely you neolibs stood in the way of that, right?
Nope, you guys have been at the helm for decades, what's your record actually show? Where are women's bodily rights again? How about healthcare reform? At least your guys got to force people to pay for private insurance, right? We're all so grateful to you for that.
So how's that opposition to fascism actually going? We elected Biden like you demanded and got a genocide for it. But, maybe you're right, maybe I'm just not intellectual enough to see how if move the party further and further to the right, to the point where you're now doing apologetics for a genocide, we'll eventually turn things around.
You must be young. The naivety is strong.
Go have your nephew show you how to use the remote control so you can watch your Bill Maher.
From their perspective not voting for Trump is a vote for Biden, which is why it would be great if they acknowlwedged how awful Trump is and kept their MAGA asses at home.
That is because not voting is like voting for your personal worst choice.
I will give up this talking point the day the US doesn't have a two-party system.
So Dems can literally do anything and you'll support them. They support genocide and you accept that.
Let me guess, if we just vote the technically lesser evil they'll change this time, right? If we just elect one more corporate dem with lobby money falling out of their ass that'll get the party to change direction, right?
Just keep voting Republican-lite and one of these days the slide towards fascism will reverse, magically. It's been working really well these last forty years, right? People have done exactly what you're suggesting and things have just been getting better and better huh.
Delusional. And all just to avoid having to face having your comfortable bubble of denial popped. All those Americans getting churned up and crushed by the consequences of your political support for do-nothing policy just need to understand that you're doing ok in the status quo, so they need to understand it's their obligation to protect you. They just gotta take a few more for the team
There are only two choices in this election. Democrat or republican. Due to the way the US election system works, not voting against the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy is the same as voting for the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy.
The Israelis committing genocide is not even close to the biggest threat facing our country at the moment.
Plus, Trump literally wants to nuke Gaza, while Biden is trying to get Israeli to agree to a cease fire. Not to mention that congress is responsible for the sales of arms.
The delusion is ignoring the election and then complaining (edit about what gets elected). I'm SURE you won't do that.
The goal is to do harm reduction now, and start building a better candidate for next time.
No ones ignoring the election. You vote and send a clear message that they can't ignore; Uncommitted. i.e. "I voted against you because of genocide. Period." There will be no room for blithering about how maybe dems didn't appeal to imaginary disillusioned Republicans enough or that people want bipartisan genocide or how we can afford to ignore the youth vote blah blah. The reason they lost the vote will be crystal fucking clear.
They can then choose to accept that reality and adjust, or they can deny it and continue doing the same losing strategy. If they continue using the same losing strategy at that point then that is a sure sign that the DNC will never be capable of learning or adapting and that they will never be capable of confronting fascism. And at that point the American people need to start considering harder realities.
The goal is to do harm reduction now, and start building a better candidate for next time.
This has never worked. We are where we are right now because this kind of thinking has been allowed to prevail in the Democratic party. Things have not improved, we have lost basic rights, not gained more. We have grown closer to fascism inder the corporate Democrat leadership, not further.
When they spit in your fucking face next election cycle and tell you to vote for their chosen corporate conservative Dem like a good dog you'll do it, repeating the same brainless line you're trying to spin right now.
Know how I know? Because it's been the same bullshit neoliberals have been doing for forty fucking years. Same trajectory of failure and short-term, fear-based voting.
Ok enjoy trump HAPPILY supporting genocide ENTHUSIASTICALLY both in Palestine and in Ukraine.
You are in a limited outcome situation. You get one choice in January: trump or Biden. One of them will be president.
Edit I share the opinion bidens choices are very very bad, I just acknowledge trump will make them worse
Oh don't worry, they'll be patting themselves on the back. They think that if you just walk away from the trolley problem, they have no fault. Their neck will be in the guillotine and they still won't see how they contributed to it. Purity politics are a selfish, foolish plague on our nation.
Sure, Jan.
In a vacuum, what you're saying makes sense. But the Democratic party doesn't exist in a vacuum. You don't have to approve of all of their actions or policies to recognize that the ONLY OTHER OPTION in this moment is a much greater evil.
Exactly. It's almost like people don't understand how party politics work. It's always about holding your nose and voting for the least bad option. Very rarely is your ideal candidate even on a ballot. If everyone voted only for their ideal candidate, we'd have thousands on the ballot. Even in ranked choice you vote in order of preference but these clowns wouldn't even put a rank to someone like Biden. They'd rather Trump supporters win.
You don’t have to approve of all of their actions or policies
Say those who do.
Genocide is not excusable or justifiable. Ever. It's not something that can be just handwaved away as "regretable".
If the Dems want to win elections they need to A) stop supporting genocide and B) Stop trying to force the pied piper strategy. It's a political failure.
Explain to me how allowing the Republican candidate to win in November is going to help prevent genocide.
Once you're done with that... explain to me why you believe the Republican candidate would not support even greater atrocities.
I love the self outing of "pied piper", bro you're just admitting now that you're treating everyone who's actually gonna live the difference you let happen like a bunch of hysterical exaggerating crybabies because how dare people be mad at you for thinking this time surely the establishment will learn it's lesson!
Yeah, we're being crybabies because the Democratic nominee is supporting a genocide. If only we were all wise and worldly like you where we could shrugg it off, right? I mean, what's the big deal about genocide, right? Everyone's so stuck on this "human rights" thing, geez. Grow up everyone, you've gotta have a little genocide sometimes to protect democracy.
How are you going to help prevent genocide when you get genocided yourself for letting fascists win?
A better question; how does Biden represent any serious opposition to fascism when he's literally neck and neck with a convicted felon and can't even bring himself to give up on genocide in order to "save democracy"?
What is your floor for supporting genocide?
Providing wrapons that you say can't be used forbthe genocide even though we know they are being used for that?
Providing funding that could be used on weapons?
Providing intel intended to reduce civilian casualties?
Maintaining diplomatic relations with the country?
Just curious as 'supporting' can be stretched pretty far, and for me the floor would be providing weapons. Anything beyond that is just normal international relations bullshit.
Support for genocide is not stretchy, no. Aiding a government that's committing genocide is supporting genocide. Period.
Is not getting involved in stopping the genocide supporting genocide through inaction?
If both parties are fully genocidal then neither of them represent resistance to it and voting for either is approval.
Reform is the only option. GOP has no chance of reform, Democrats have an infinitesimally narrow window left through which to achieve reform before fascism is fully rooted. They will not reform if rewarded with power.
Those are your democratic options. Do what you think will be least ineffective, and then prepare for the overwhelming statistical liklihood that Democrats will fumble any opportunity you give them out of greed and deluded incompetence.
If both parties are fully genocidal
Well, the good news is that only describes one of the parties that includes people who have said out loud that they support genocide and/or are writing messages supportive of killing Palestinians on the bombs used for genocide.
No. Biden is fully committed to the genocide. His actions prove that beyond dispute.
Biden is the entire Democratic party?
Seems like a small party.
I’m not voting for Biden, or Trump. I am leaving pres blank.
Don’t care if you agree with me. I vote my conscious. You have to vote yours.
Of the two, which would you rather have?
Not voting for your preferred candidate (even if it's the lesser of two evils) is the same as voting for the other one. So I'm not sure how that eases your conscience.
Every voting age citizen is helping one of them win...either through voting directly or through inaction. If we allow a dictator to rise to power in America and commit God knows what atrocities, yes you can say "I didn't vote for him." But at that point, it doesn't matter. It's too late. You won't be able to say "I helped prevent this. And even though I disagree strongly with certain policies, at least we still have a democracy."
- You’re wrong
- If my only two options are genocidal corporate oligarch or genocidal fascist dictator, I give zero fucks. I’m not voting for Biden.
- DNC said Biden is the only one who can beat Trump. They also said they don’t owe me or any democrat constituents anything. Fuck ‘em.
- Stop watching msnbc, cnn, corporate news. (They are lying to you)
Doesn't matter what your grievance with the party is. There are exactly two options in Nov. One of them WILL be voted into power. There is no 3rd option. No outcome where one of them does not win.
Whether you believe it or not, our actions as voters will help one or the other of them succeed. If it makes you feel good about yourself to abstain, that's your choice. But it's delusional to think that that somehow absolves you of any responsibility for whatever outcome happens. Like it or not, you're going to help someone in this election...there is no way out of that.
Honestly once they said "I give zero fucks, I'm not voting for Biden", they showed their hand, didn't they?
To people with their mindset, the genocide in Gaza eclipses every other fight and human rights issue attached to the shitty trolley problem we find ourselves in — so they cross their arms, even knowing that the trolley will kill far more people if they don't pull the lever.
Fuck harm reduction, they won't pull the lever, even if that means people in Gaza will experience even MORE suffering due to their inaction.
And on one hand, that's very... Principled.
On the other hand... Jesus. Fucking. Christ.
Yes, and this isn't just about November or a single term.
That's why you keep spinning round and round in the same cycle of DNC abuse, they set themselves up so it's either them or the End of All Things and you swallow that dichotomy whole every time.
So I should just not vote is what you're saying.
I still fail to see any suggestion from you that is a better alternative.
I'm not telling you to do anything. You have three choices, 1) Fascist 2) Fascist-Lite 3) Send a message to Fascist-Lite to hope it finally sinks into their thick Neanderthal skulls and they can't keep ignoring their base.
That's it, you do whatever you feel is best.
Except that options 1 and 3 are the same. They come as a pair. So if you think you can stomach option 1, then by all means go for option 3.
Let a dictator seize power, tear down our democracy, and install himself and his successors for life. That'll teach them Democrats a lesson.
No one's saying reform doesn't need to happen. But it isn't gonna happen before November. And it certainly isn't going to EVER happen after November if the side that would refuse to give up power once they have it gets elected.
This would read a lot less out of touch if that "abuse cycle" wasn't the actual fucking truth
Believe it or not, there is never a fucking safe time to let the fascists win!
Aren't you supposed to be the ones who are the only ones who take the threat of fascism seriously?
Here's your chance, put the fuck up or get on the wall with the rest of the collaborators when the revolution you're creaming your jorts for actually does come and the actual victims of fascism take stock of everyone who could have helped prevent their trauma and actively fought and whined and bitched and moaned to not do that.
I acknowledge the Democrats are handling Israel terribly.
But I also acknowledge the Republicans will do it with a smile. And in Ukraine too. (And a million other things)