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I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.
On one hand I'd like it if the Democrats put up someone more certain to beat Trump. On the other Joe has shown he supports labor and things are moving in the right direction in that regard. I'd hate it if he we get a corpo Democrat that halts this progress.
THANK YOU. It's that fkin simple.
So simple, yet so hard for so many to understand.
Most folks are dumber than a chickens.
And I'd vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.
Mother fucker could be Dracula for all I care. Still voting for him.
Dracula is cool as fuck tho.
https://youtu.be/1Onr4z2fdDM - Dracula's pretty based, ngl.
I'm gonna be honest, I was thinking of Dracula flow when I posted this.
My favorite theme so yeah, def voting for that.
There is russian meme "voting for stool just to vote against UR".
You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.
"Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one" sounds like one of those fallacies you'd learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I've been too scared to ask...)*
People that are happy to run people over in tanks to force their communist version of society on everyone else.
A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China's actions in Tiananmen Square. It's rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.
Tankies are hypocrites who didn't understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone's idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you're dealing with a tankie.
wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods
Odd. I'm getting called a tankie because I just won't vote for Biden (or Trump). Someone must have gotten confused.
Lots of people say lots of silly things, nonetheless Trump is worse for the proletariat than Biden, and turning your nose up at the lesser evil endangers real people when the greater evil wins. You don't have to vote for the greater evil to help tip the scales in their favor. Accelerationism is authoritarianism with extra steps and no one in the driver's seat.
Biden doesn't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden's family doesn't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden's campaign doesn't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. The DNC leadership doesn't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries don't accept blame for tipping the scale in their favor. Moderaters and political analysts don't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People like you letting those people get away with that and focusing on telling me to be quiet and vote for Biden don't accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor.
I don't accept blame for it either.
IDGAF who does or doesn't accept blame for whatever. I care about material results; my future, my family's future, my neighbors' futures, the future of the people who live in this country, and this world. IDGAF how ideologically pure a politician is, or who's wrong or right, or who gets away with whatever. I care about the people who are going to suffer if the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists keep establishing their foothold judge by judge, bill by bill, ruling by ruling.
This isn't grade school, this isn't a game, this isn't about fair. There are real stakes here. People will die. I'm not heartless enough to play the blame game with lives on the line. I'm voting harm reduction because I'm an adult and I play the hand I'm dealt. Righteously losing doesn't help anything but ego-centric deontology.
I care about material results; my future, my family’s future, my neighbors’ futures, the future of the people who live in this country, and this world.
Same bud. And Biden was never the guy who was going to do that for me. Where were you during the 2020 primaries? Where have you been ever since?
He's actually been surprisingly effective. Your distaste doesn't negate his numerous policy accomplishments with tangible benefits.
Even disregarding that, even if he was ineffective, he's not trying to concentrate power into the hands of Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists, so he is by default the superior choice to those who are. The material results that I care about, that reasonable adults care about, revolve around stopping the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists. Or are you on their side?
By their reasoning:
No vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Trump is fascist and authoritarian. Tankies are authoritarians. Therefore, you are a tankie. /s
Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies.
Tankies are very frequently the only people in the room who've done the reading. If you believe that so called "authoritarian methods" are antithetical to leftism, then I recommend you read the following pamphlet by Engels.
Tankies have read Marx and Engels, yes, but there are many other forms of leftism and even other forms of communism that aren't ML. You are right about ML communists, in particular, but many other leftist movements are anti-authoritarian by their nature, so the point still stands.
Also, it's possible to do the reading and disagree with the methods of implementation. I agree with the economics and the stated goals of communism, but I don't believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.
but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.
Humor me for a moment, which of the following do you consider authoritarian?
- asking your boss for better wages
- using the power of a union to force your boss to give your coworkers better wages
- using the power of the state to force all bosses to pay all workers better wages
You completely disregard, that the soviet union did number 3 and crushed all unions not falling in line. Or that they ignore the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections numerous times.
The authoritarian way isnt being critized for coming down on Capitalists. Its critized for how it treated every deviation from the party line. And especially, how it turned into a political chess game at the top, which prioritized amassing personal power and wealth over the actual well being of the state.
If by "not falling in line" you mean "actively sabotaging the working class for selfish reasons" then I suppose you have a point, but I would argue that in class war those organizations which do not support the working class are fair targets.
the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections
By the time the Bolsheviks were disregarding the results of elections, the People's Soviets were the state power in the former Russian Empire, and they were a hundred times more democratic than the Duma ever was.
amassing personal power and wealth
I'm sorry comrade but the Soviets simply never did this. The benefits enjoyed by even top Party officials paled in comparison to the lavish lifestyles of the former Russian Empire's aristocracy or those of the ruling class of any of their contemporary capitalist rivals - even fucking Stalin lived in a shared apartment!
Objectively speaking the Soviet Union was one of the most democratic and equal societies on this Earth during the time of its existence, and you can very clearly see in the data how their system equalized wealth (not "perfectly", just "better than everyone else has ever done it"), and how the destruction of their system undid all of their progress.
By your metric Stalin should have been shot for undermining soviet defensive capabilities by purging almost every capable military leader? What did Tukhachevsky, Bukharin, Blyukher or Yegorov do to get executed? What were their sabotages? Their names got dropped by tortured officers and in turn they got shot. Setting the red army back years in experience.
And lets not forget the ethnic targetting: Between 1936 and 1938 nearly all ethnic Baltic People were cleansed put of the upper echelon.
I hop off the train at the part where the top-down dictatorship comes into play. Probably a bit before the level of authoritarianism where the Joseph Stalin type starts killing people for having a dissenting opinion, and what not.
Using the state to enforce good wages and end the terribleness of the stock market/landlord culture does not need to involve a top down dictatorship and a lack of democracy.
I know about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and all that, and in my opinion, it should involve all of the workers, not one person or a small group of people. A top down dictatorship just makes it all that easier for the party to be infiltrated and controlled by bourgeois interests. If said dictatorship is a true democracy, with each worker having an equal say, it makes it pretty hard to control the proles.
So you wouldn't accept any system that's not a direct democracy? Where every single person is involved in every single vote? It's a coherent position I suppose, but IMO totally impractical and idealistic.
I don't think it's realistic or pragmatic to expect a perfect direct democracy system. Trying to get as close to one as feasibly possible can be a goal though, and once we're at that point, try to continually and slowly improve that direct democracy system until it's even closer and closer and closer, ad infinitum.
There's a difference between someone-needs-to-coordinate-and-manage-complex-undertakings "authoritarian" and line-the-dissidents-up-against-the-wall "authoritarian". Tankies are the latter.
We have class war waged against us by the bourgeoisie, and thousands of people are casualties of that war every single day. Expecting to turn the tide against them without getting our hands dirty in turn is useless idealism.
Uh huh, and historically violent authoritarian transitional regimes are always so willing to step aside after the transition.
Getting our hands dirty means shooting comrades who carried the revolutionary wars for being a bit yucky.
I'm a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There's maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it's actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.
Generally, the actual term for most "tankies" would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it's a more general, big tent label. It's used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It's basically like "woke" where it doesn't actually have any real meaning.
Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did... hence "Tankie"
The idea that that's the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.
But regardless of the origin, it's changed to where now it's liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that.
$COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.
Militant leftist, in the most basic sense.
But anti-leftists tend to co-opt the term to replace 'fascist' or 'nazi' in their discourse.
I am by no means an expert, but the test that was explained to me is that if you look at the famous tianamen square picture of the guy holding grocery bags facing down a line of tanks, and then proceed to side with the line of tanks, then you're a tankie.
When I say that I am not an expert, what I actually mean is that I'm a random idiot from the internet, so don't take anything I say as gospel truth.
I've only been on lemmy for a few months, and I've never heard the term tankie on any other platform. My understanding is that a tankie is a militant supporter of communism, who completely disregards (or is in support of) how every time it's ever actually been done it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship (or something similarly unpleasant to live under).
My own biases exposed: I am an american, and most of what I know I learned in the absolutely fucked american public education system, which says communism = evil, because of the red scare a while back.
If you do some googling, there's a wikipedia article on the subject. I've forgotten most of the content of that article shortly after I read it, I should look at it again and maybe it will stick this time.
You get it! We can't fuck over vulnerable people. We can't abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it -- and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.
Biden is literally arming a genocide. He was even adamant about his continued support for that. Meanwhile Dems led cities have brutally beaten up peaceful colelge protests and invited fascist MAGA mobs to attack minority students there.
The DNC and Biden do not protect minorities. They are white supremacists with just a bit more moderation to the means they employ, but they will absolutely resort to authoritarian crackdowns if they feel the minorities to step out of line by demanding justice and rights.
That's such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.
People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule...
What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid's Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2....
And the average man won't care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs... and if the trains don't run on time, they probably have libs to blame.
trains run on time
I am here to regretfully inform you about the state of american rail infrastructure...
I know, I sadly know.
My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can't be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.
Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I'm probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don't do that to me, don't do that to them. I'm begging you for my life.
As a transwoman as well, I second this!
Don't let the fascist win!
I'd suggest taking a flight overseas the day after the elections, booked prior to it. If Trump losses, you can use it to celebrate it. If he wins... well, you can ask for asylum on arrival.
Can't afford that...
😕
I am trans and not voting for Biden. I refuse to sacrifice Palestinians for my own safety or the safety of my loved ones. All the stuff people say now about them being an acceptable sacrifice or there being nothing they can do about it, that's what they'll be saying about us tomorrow. Solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable strategy for long term survival.
I hate being used as a rhetorical token to make people feel better about selling out another vulnerable group.
Trans people are not a monolith. There's other trans people in this thread begging us to vote for Biden for their safety. Your feelings about being a rhetorical token are not invalid, but recognize that other people in your vulnerable group are legitimately crying out for help.
Either way, I'm glad I'm not one of your loved ones. Your own safety is one thing. Their safety is another.
They're entitled to their views, as I am to mine.
I will do whatever I can to protect my loved ones and ensure they retain access to their meds. But I cannot go against the dictates of my conscience. And as I said, in the long term, solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable path forward and I will not sacrifice that long term strategy for some fleeting, half-hearted protection. In fact I've already seen people applying the "lesser evil" argument to sacrificing trans rights since I posted this. Only by uniting and drawing a red line do we have a chance in the long run.
I respect this decision. But, I’m selfishly voting for Biden. Trump’s first term stressed me out.
Tbh I'm fine with respectful disagreement.
Thoughtful, educated and informed voting decisions should be respected. Shame on this duopoly for forcing its electorate to choose between tacit support for a genocide, and outright fascism.
Thank you. I have to vote according to my conscience and what I believe is right, but if someone else's conscience tells them differently, I can make my case but ultimately it is their decision to make. So many people on here expect everyone to think and see things the exact same way as them and can't even seem to imagine someone having different values or a different perspective, and that can be very frustrating.
If you actually cared you would vote biden. No one capable of it will save the Palestinians. None. At least with biden someone survives.
If our "democracy" has decayed to the point where I'm not able to vote on whether or not we do a genocide, then it is not a democracy and I should not legitimize the sham through participation.
There is no circumstance under which I will support genocide. If that means I die, then I will die. If any of you had a backbone you'd do the same. And if enough people drew that line, they'd have no choice but to listen to us.
Grow up. If you really want to fix our democracy it's going to take time. Vote for every chance you get. We already have one state with ranked choice voting. If you want a real democracy that is our avenue
Oh, does Biden support ranked choice voting, then?
He doesn't. I'm not going to support asshole after asshole in the vain hope that maybe out of the kindness of their hearts they'll eventually give us freedom, which directly opposes their own interests. You're the one that needs to grow up if you believe that fairy tale.
I don't know. But more dems then reps do
You know, I used to be a lot more extreme than I am now. When I was younger, I said I wouldn't vote for anyone unless they were going to reform the system to where I wouldn't have to vote for a lesser evil anymore, demanding that our rulers give up their power.
Now, all I'm asking is that they stop slaughtering people. They can rule over us in their sham democracy, if they would just stop killing all these people. They won't even do that. So again, my answer is "Hell no, fuck off." Biden is my enemy and I will oppose him just as I oppose Trump, regardless of what the odds are. Again, anyone with a spine and a conscience should be doing the same.
Right? Imagine it's a fucking Saw Trap, and there's an easy way out without sacrificing anyone... and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.
I can’t even imagine how awful the people who fill that vacuum would be.
We can’t fuck over vulnerable people.
That's what you're doing when voting for Dems.
Yes, I see how you're protecting me when you elect the party that would arrest me for being a "Public Danger" because of the fact that I'm trans.
If you would get off your ass and gather support for a decent party this wouldn't be a problem.
Last I tried my Socialist Party USA chapter belittled me, called me a rape apologist, and refused to do anything for the local community outside of shaming people for wanting to vote out Trump by any means possible.
That sucks, i bet there's a more accepting party in your area for you. Try PSL or Green party
"Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am"
"Stop being lazy and go improve a better party"
You're entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.
Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am
Your support of Dems is what prevents a real opposition to fascism.
You’re entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.
Truth hurts, don't care.
Here's a brutal truth for you then. Being a raging, unapologetic jerk won't progress your political goals. It'll only make them harder to achieve.
Also, you're a fucking asshole.
Here’s a brutal truth for you then. Being a raging, unapologetic jerk won’t progress your political goals. It’ll only make them harder to achieve.
My goal isn't to convince you, only show how you are wrong so people looking at this post will be influenced by it. Looking at your profile, you are too far gone.
No, you are an asshole.
Go educate yourself, and then you can join the adult discussions.
Oh the irony.
Agreed, hopefully someday you understand it.
Right, you should educate yourself.
What vulnerable people are dems going after?
Don't forget how Biden is being harder on immigration than Trump was but don't worry Biden is totally for minorities
If you don't know the answer to this already, I suppose the backlash against Biden from progressives might seem like bots or foreign propaganda.
I am starting to think so too.
Nope. I just understand democracy.
I feel like this reply is for someone else? We're both coming from a leftist position. Democrats only think they're being overrun with bots and propaganda because they aren't actually politically informed enough to know the valid reasons why people don't like them.
You're right, misread
The poor is the most clear. Also black people, just look at our prisons, and the crime bill Joe Biden wrote
Show me. Tell me how the party of Obama and Harris are going after them.
That's just prison stats. Nothing about what democrats are doing to make it worse
You should research cop cities. Atlanta democrats voted to fund theirs.
Most based .ml user
Based and practicalpilled
Thank you for being a sane human 🙏
This is the way.
Oh my god! A tankie who's not fucking stupid. I never thought I'd see the day.
The Prolitariat must be protected
By consenting to corruption and a path to WWIII. That is not protecting them, in fact it is ensuring them a terrible future. If you cared about them, you would vote, volunteer, donate, and support the PSL, CPUSA, or Green party instead.
Lmao the green party isn't going to do jack shit. They're completely unserious about politics. They aren't even trying to build up an infrastructure in all 50 states that lets them get suffused into local and state politics. They aren't even aiming for Congressional seats, which would be necessary for an actual Green president to get anything done.
They're just anti science grifters who think wifi causes cancer, entertain vaccine skepticism, and demonize nuclear energy -- the latter of which could be a major asset to stopping global warming. Newer designs are even able to consume nuclear waste, meaning an anti nuclear position results in more waste than we would otherwise.
I actually had my local Socialist Party USA chapter kick me out, ban me from their facebook, and publicly announce that I'm a rape apologist because I wouldn't tell people to support an openly transphobic "Vaccines Cause Autism" Green Party candidate over Joe Biden.
Then support the PSL. I work with the Green party to improve it, because that's how democracy works. It's okay you don't understand that.
I'm afraid all of us don't have that much free time. But hey, if you can get them to stop being anti science and actually become a serious party, I'll consider them.
Just don't expect me to accept the Green Party's many imperfections. If you don't accept the Democrat's imperfections, then you should perfectly understand.
Send them an email and discuss your issues. They are the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change.
Democrats don't have imperfections, they are fundamentally flawed because they are corrupt.
Until Stein vehemently recants her remarks about WiFi causing cancer, vaccine skepticism, and nuclear fear mongering -- or the Green party completely disavows her and those remarks -- it would be a total waste of time.
It isn't my job as an engineer to tell "the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change" to stop endorsing completely anti science positions. Nor is it on me to try and correct a willfully anti science party. They need to show good faith, and they've done nothing whatsoever to suggest any of that to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2suVx9cDKw She is the one with a medical degree, so you don't have any authority over her opinion, sounds reasonable for her to make her stance out of concern, even if she is wrong.
I'm also an engineer, and that's why I use my knowledge to try to influence the party.
None of those parties have a ghost of a chance of winning, and with as razor thin as the win margins were in 2016 and 2020, I'm not confident Biden will win if we don't vote for him. I sincerely hope I do not have to explain why Trump would be worse on literally every issue (especially Gaza) than Biden is.
Then do something about it instead of complain. I am, what are you doing? You vote for corruption.
Bro's protest voting when the
WeimarAmerican Republic has Nazis on the ballot and thinks building "grassroots support" for the twentieth year in a row justifies it when the world is about to run out of time anywaysYou want Green candidates? Tell them to run as Democrats or make a fucking militia.
Dems are actually fascists, and you are as well for not only voting for them, but gathering support for them online when you could be doing that for a decent party.
This is something I would say as a joke to make fun of a strawman version of you
Joe's crime bill is absolutely fascist.
Yes, yes, we all know what happens when you scratch a liberal but it's better than not having to scratch to find it. Even if all that's holding the powers that be back is a skin-deep veneer of civility and deniability a vote to strip that veneer away makes you a fool, not a revolutionary.
it’s better than not having to scratch to find it.
There's no need to scratch. They openly support the genocide of children.
The real fool is the one that puts no effort into change.
🤡
Imagine watching that debate and saying someone is a clown for not voting for them.
The Democrat party is just as corrupt and bought out by corporations as the Republicans are, but at least they aren't trying to get the country to circle the drain as quickly.
The past 4 years prove you wrong on that.
Did they? We got back in the Paris climate accords, gay marriage got codified into an actual law, student loan forgiveness started rolling out, clamping down on junk fees and overdraft fees...
He lied about student loan forgiveness.
He has us barreling towards WWIII and has destroyed our reputation on a global scale with our support of genocide in Palestine.
Nobody likes voting for the lesser of two evils, but we all have to if we want to stop an even further decline into hell. Our system is broken, and we don't have any way of fixing it immediately, so we have to work with what we can. Trump as president will have immediate and direct consequences for many people, and it will be the fault of people like you that it happened. At this point, not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump. You may continue virtue signaling after we get through the crisis right in front of us.
You're not voting for the lesser of two evils, you are voting for corruption and evil while doing absolutely nothing about it.
The system is set up in a way that the only viable options are between two evils, unfortunately. Under a FPTP system where the only good options are minority parties that won't win a single seat in their districts, you're left with the choice of voting for the lesser evil, or voting for your morals but increasing the risk of the greater evil winning.
It's a no-win situation.
No, you can vote for whoever you want. You all on here are too lazy to gather support for another party.
You’re voting for no one, giving more of a chance for the greater of two evils and still doing nothing. Where your fucking guillotine?
I'm voting for Jill Stein. And I got one out back.