6d ago

German confusion

60 comments

I think non-Germans can't understand the deep social guilt that's been drilled into them since WWII. Since childhood they're told how horrible they were to the Jews, what atrocities they committed; they're taken on field trips to concentration camps where it's explained in graphic detail what their grandparents did to the Jews; there is a deep cultural guilt around the Holocaust, and although many different people suffered, it's specifically focused on Jews. Even I don't understand it; when I was living there I asked some question I don't even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me "we don't talk about that." It's a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
It's easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine that Israel is perpetrating; we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand. You might think they'd be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
All those Germans in power now were the children of a generation who survived the war as children, and who all had it beaten into them how horrible a people they were and how terrible the atrocity against the Jews they executed. If any country is going to struggle with condemning Israel, it's going to be Germany, and the people who the rest of the world has been using as the villain in TV and movies for 80 years; who've been beaten on the head about the Holocaust since childhood.
- I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII
  Except they only defend Israel...
  LGBT was a target too, is Germany standing up for LGBT?
  What about the Romani?
  What about communists?
  What about people who spoke out against genocide?
  The Jewish victims of the Holocaust made up about 50% of it's victims. Why unquestionable support for them, but not for other groups?
  It's great Germany's seeing the light now, but don't act like they had a rational excuse for blindly supporting a genocide of a different group.
  
  That's exactly the point op is making.
  
  All those Germans in power now were the children of a generation who survived the war as children, and who all had it beaten into them how horrible a people they were and how terrible the atrocity against the Jews they executed.
  They're ignoring 50% of the people their parent's generation killed, and excusing the other 50%'s children committing their own genocide against a different group...
  They're explicitly not making the same point as me...
  
  there is a deep cultural guilt around the Holocaust, and although many different people suffered, it's specifically focused on Jews. Even I don't understand it;
  OP isn't ignoring it, the culture is.
  
  Is it an excuse, or an explanation?
  
  You didn't read what I wrote; I'll assume because it was too verbose for you.
  I said
  although many different people suffered, it's specifically focused on Jews.
  and
  You might think they'd be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
  In the West we ignore the communist victims because we were in a cold war with the Communists. We ignore the LGBTQ because we also oppressed the LBGTQ communities. We didn't carve a new country out of other country's land for anyone except Jews. And the West was a, if not the, major force directing the reeducation of the German populous after WWII.
- I find this "You can't blame Germany for supporting genocide, because they're guilty about the Holocaust!" defense kind of hard to believe. After all, Germany also committed genocide against the USSR, and yet "Russia delenda est" seems to be an extremely mainstream position among Germans currently.
  It’s easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine
  Actually we're criticizing them for actively supporting the genocide.
  we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand.
  This is incredibly tone-deaf, given what people in Gaza are actually having to overcome.
- I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII.
  Then why are you speculating about it.
  when I was living there I asked some question I don’t even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me “we don’t talk about that.” It’s a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
  Yeah that's surely the only possible interpretation.
  Truth be told: Just by using the term "guilt" you're parroting Nazi talking points. It's the precise type of rhetoric they're driving, and you're a dogwhistle's understanding away from "The Jews invented the Holocaust to shame Germany to keep it from being strong".
  Maybe that's why people didn't want to talk to you about it.
  For people actually interested in understanding it, instead of merely having an opinion: Start by distinguishing between "guilt" and "responsibility", the latter not in the sense of culpability, but... OSHA.
  The whole Israel thing is actually distinct from that. If, tomorrow, Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir etc were to keel over and we'd have the second coming of Rabin, the collective sigh of relief in Germany would knock the earth off axis. The trouble is supporting, at the same time a) Israel to exist within its internationally recognised borders and b) supporting the same thing for Palestine allthewhile c) fascists on both sides making shit impossible.
  There's been plenty of criticism within Germany towards the hesitant stance of the government. On the flipside, what you also don't see is German media -- also public, also state media (DW) sugar-coating what's happening in Gaza.
  For the longest time the government kept to its age-old approach of working the Israelis quietly, in the background. Stuff that, on occasion, led them to relent on settlement projects etc. Germany did it that way because it was a way to influence things while keeping an in. That seems to be over because there's no "in" with Israel any more, they're simply not listening to things they don't want to hear.
- Thank you.
- I don't think Germans visiting those concentration camps paid any attention and I don't think they have any guilt towards the Holocaust whatsoever.
  If they did Germans would be absolutely disgusted with a new genocide happening with German support. Hell the AfD neo-Nazis are the most popular party in Germany these days.
  Germany similar to the USA has a very strong Zionist lobby and that's it. They do not care about the Holocaust.
  
  This is such an ill informed and disgusting comment. It comes from a place of media propaganda. Germany is having an issue with the AfD, yes, but the rest of the world is also struggling with far right extremism and its rise to power again. Go to Germany, you’ll change your outlook on the people, the culture, and hopefully regret the blanket statement you just made.
  
  If you replace the word Muslim with Jew Germany basically looks like 1930.
  The German lack of self awareness is only surpassed by their racism because they now think Jews are white and don't understand how a genocide could have been perpetrated against white people.
  
  Such a statement proves you know nothing of Germany, little of its history and shows you lack empathy. You're being willfully cruel towards a population you've never encountered, towards a place you've never been. Its ironic, really, how you're so quick to judge us, but don't see your own projections. I really wish I knew you personally, just to show you how wrong you are.
  
  you’re being willfully cruel towards a population you’ve never encountered, towards a place you’ve never been.
  No, that's what Germany is doing towards Gaza.
  
  Have you ever been to Nazi Germany in 1940?
  
  No, and neither have you. We humans have this wonderful tool that allows us to transmit information across space and time, it's called communication.
  
  Does it also allow me to observe present day Germany?
  
  If they did Germans would be absolutely disgusted with a new genocide happening with German support. Hell the AfD neo-Nazis are the most popular party in Germany these days.
  Believe me, many of us are disgusted. Not only the AfD has grown, the leftist party DIE LINKE has almost tripled their poll results over the last year. The problem is that the left half of the spectrum (SPD, Grüne and LINKE) still can't agree which flavor of "left" is the correct one so they rather blame each other than form a coalition which leaves the CDU/CSU as the strongest power that can just dictate what happens and the SPD has to go along with it out of fear that otherwise the CDU will eventually work with the AfD.
  
  Die Linke is the only slight anti genocide party and they have like 10% of the votes. The Greens are literally saying it's OK for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians. Germany is fully doomed and the only people unable to see it are Germans.
  
  The Greens are literally saying it’s OK for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians.
  Where? When? You can't just claim that without providing a source and expect us to believe it.
  While they do state on their website that Israel has a right to defend itself and Hamas should release all remaining hostages, they immediately follow it up with this (translated by me to the best of my ability):
  Israel's military operation must happen under the conditions of international humanitarian law. The new military offensive of Israel's government in Gaza will further worsen the dramatic humanitarian conditions for civilians in Gaza. The suffering of the people of Gaza is immeasurable. We expect the federal government to increase their efforts to advocate for Israel's government to obey international humanitarian law, for a ceasefire and for an immediate end of the blockade of humanitarian aid. The people of Gaza need access to vital help right now. Every day costs more human lives. For this, the federal government should strengthen the principles of the G7 - no displacement, no occupation, no decrease in territory, no decision about the future of Gaza without the Palestinian people.
  How is that "OK for Israel to kill Palestinian civilians"?
  Edit: Rephrased the initial "They don't" to a question about the source; translated a bit more of the page.
  
  German FM: Israel can kill civilians in Gaza to ‘defend itself’
  Germany’s Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, addressed parliament yesterday and justified Israel's targeting of civilians in Gaza. 'Self-defence means not only attacking terrorists but destroying them. When Hamas terrorists hide behind people, behind schools… civilian places lose their protected status because terrorists abuse it.'
  This, however, is not true, according to human rights lawyer, Craig Mokhiber. The former senior UN human rights official told MEMO claims that Israel has a right to 'self-defence' in Gaza don't have a standing in international law.
  
  And where does that say that it's okay to kill civilians? She very clearly says that civilian places, not people can, not must, lose their protected status if Hamas, not the civilian population, use them to hide weapons or active combatants. This is in accordance with the Geneva Conventions:
  The protection to which fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after a due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded.
  (GC (I), Article 21, emphasis mine)
  
  Stop with the Zionist propaganda. You are literally doing the Nazi thing. "Hitler defended himself into Poland".
  As an Occupier, Israel Has No Right to “Self-Defense”
  Also
  
  How about you stop assuming things that I never said or meant? I fully agree that Israel has no rights to set even one foot into Gaza, that every dead civilian is one too many and that Benjamin Netanyahu needs to be dragged before the ICC as soon as possible.
  But it's still important to look at facts about what some party or the other said and not your twisted interpretation based on what you want to believe the world to be. Calling everyone who even slightly deviates from your opinion Zionist and a Nazi just strengthens the actual Nazis in the AfD, the right wing of the CDU/CSU, the Republicans in the USA and so on. This is exactly what I meant by 'left half of the spectrum (SPD, Grüne and LINKE) still can’t agree which flavor of “left” is the correct one'. If we want to prevail against the flood of right-wing hatemongers who twist the narrative to their advantage, we must stick together and we must stick to the facts. Otherwise, we are, as you have phrased it, doomed.
  
  What she is saying is not facts it is Zionist propaganda contradicting international law.
  Adolf Hitler said he was defending himself into Poland. Was he? Is anyone repeating what he is saying "repeating the law"?
  
  I never said, that what she said is factually correct. I said that what you said is not what she said and that you are interpreting things that are not in the original video you linked, let alone in the full-length unedited version.
  Also, quoting someone to illustrate what they actually said does in no way mean that one agrees. What I quoted was a text straight from the Greens website as well as part of the Geneva Conventions. I clearly marked both as such and I included them to illustrate someone else's opinion, not my own.
  
  The Holocaust once came up in conversation with a German and he was moved to tears. He was an older generation though, somewhat less removed from the reality.
  
  Ask that same older generation about the genocide in Gaza. See what they say.
  
  My parents were born late in the 1940s.
  Both are disgusted by the actions of Israel as well as Hamas.
  What's your point?
  
  So your parents would have been disgusted by both the actions of the Nazis and the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. Sounds like they were 'good Germans'
  
  Warsaw ghetto was closed in 1943. The war was over in 1945. As I said, they were born in the late 40s.
  They also know how to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians.
  You are implying that Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same. Which they are not.
  You are also equating Hamas and the Jews massacred in the Warsaw ghetto.
  Hamas are terrorists. The Jews were not.
  Hamas did deserve a forceful reaction. The Palestinians did not.
  
  Warsaw ghetto was closed in 1943. The war was over in 1945. As I said, they were born in the late 40s.
  Hence why I said "would have".
  They also know how to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinians.
  Clearly not, given that Hamas aren't a different species or people. Hamas is literally the government of Gaza, it is made up of Palestinians.
  You are implying that Palestinians and Hamas are one and the same. Which they are not.
  This is always just a lazy excuse to keep massacring Palestinians.
  Hamas are terrorists. The Jews were not.
  "They weren't terrorists, they were freedoms fighters!"
  You would have called the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising terrorists.
  Hamas did deserve a forceful reaction
  You would have justified the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto in the same way.
  Turns out, any time someone says they disagree with "both a sides" of a genocide, you don't have to dig far to discover that they support the genocide
  
  Hence why I said “would have”.
  You also said "Sounds like they were ‘good Germans’"
  I don't even with the rest of your message. You know two things. How to argue in bad faith and intentionally misunderstand people.
  
  You also said “Sounds like they were ‘good Germans’”
  So your objection to the idea that your parents would have been good Germans is just "they were born to make late"?
  I don’t even with the rest of your message. You know two things. How to argue in bad faith and intentionally misunderstand people.
  I've been entirely good faith and haven't intentionally misunderstood anything. You're just launching personal attacks now because you don't have a counter argument
  
  "Both are disgusted by the actions of the Nazis as well as the Jews."
  That's your parents
  
  Nicht alles was hinkt ist ein Vergleich.
  
  Wir haben er nicht gewusst.
  
  Wow. Some preconceptions you have there.
  
  I have some preconceptions about the Nazis too.
  My perception of Germans would greatly improve if they did not come running to defend their government's complicity in genocide all the time.
  
  I don't think bashing you is helpful, that's why I kept it short. The other comment here made some excellent points.
  The main gist being we're not allowed to say anything about this. We're really not.
  So this very and too late message is impressive, for our circumstances.
  Don't mix what we're allowed to say with the public opinion.

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