Taiwan reports second large-scale China air force incursion this week
Taiwan reports second large-scale China air force incursion this week
Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
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Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan)
Not only does it include a lot of water that isn't part of the Strait, right off of China's coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.
People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don't think Taiwan having this zone is bad -- countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby -- but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.
Lmao Taiwan existing is bad
Yeah, obviously it's a glorified puppet state but there's no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that's all I'm saying.
It is not to exist. I don’t care about their air borders and I hope China flies wherever they please within Chinese territory like Chinese Taipei
The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.
It's going to require might and pressure and gunboat diplomacy, it's denial and liberalism to pretend colonialists just give up their holdings
The RoC won't give up their holdings in the interest of human benefit, but liberalism shows us that there are countless ways to skin a cat. The RoC is not autarkic and is very dependent on its NATO friends and its trading partners. As the US wanes and third world nations stand up, the support for Taiwanese nationalism will surely dwindle, and RoC leadership may be put in a position where their best offer is clearly to reunify.
A glorified puppet state? What do you mean?
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China -- as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the "White Terror"), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think "puppet state" is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that's its own can of worms.
I didn't really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I'm happy to discuss it as best I can.
Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.
Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its 'proper' functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China [...] which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the "puppet state" part. I don't think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.
if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it's a puppet state in the sense that it's propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.
ehh yeah I guess so
It's kind of a weird way to define a puppet state IMO, because you could make the same case for a lot of countries. Like the US supports the Mexican government, and would have likely already been overthrown by the Sinoloa Cartel without US support. So is Mexico a puppet state?
Hey now that you mention this, it does kind of make less sense. But I think I should be taking a break from this horrible post. There is no use arguing with someone that is completely unwilling to change their mind. Look at my comment history. I've already wasted hours.
I didn't see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.
Apparently being sponsored by a foreign state is now counted as being a puppet state?
That part was in response to you saying:
The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past
I could have formatted it better, but the rest was focused on the puppet part and then I prefaced the sponsorship part with "Incidentally" to indicate changing over to an adjacent subject.
Taiwan is a rump state of the despotism that existed before the Maoist revolution. When the government fled to the island, the US backed them up and prevented the revolution from purging them from power and uniting the whole country under one flag. They exist today as they are because of western intervention, and is therefore a puppet state. I disagree with 'glorified' considering it's taboo internationally to even call them a state.
Taiwhat? I Thought it was called the Republic of China, and everyone's been telling me China bad!
Cool, so lets ask the people living there (not those in power) what they want with their country.
Like asking yankoids what they want to do with "their land", the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.
The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they're just sitting there minding their own business either.
The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn't want to give up those naval bases. So, it's the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but "akctually, we're the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want" to Vietnam and Indonesia.
It's schrodinger's China. Simultaneously an independent smol bean democracy and the only legitimate inheritor of a 4000 year old empire.
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They're more like pro japan party to me.
Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn't agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I'm not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.
Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you'd be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.
Source: am Taiwanese
ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.
Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy
inciting conflict with your biggest trading partner does tend to have negative effects on the economy
Well yeah I guess, but really it's more about the policies they had been pushing domesticlly
i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.
People forget that the PRC blocked various imports to the ROC after Pelosi pulled her stunt. The KMT is the "economics party" mostly because it knows not to rock the boat and maintain the status quo.
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Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.
Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one -- which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn't matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they're bad at their job.
If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn't going to be allowed to force the issue.
You want polls, how about this poll conducted by a Taiwanese university where the majority of Taiwanese want neither reunification nor independence, but the status quo? The majority of Taiwanese people wanting the status quo lines up with how the pro-independence party ate shit while the pro-status quo party made huge gains. The DPP got BTFO so hard the current DPP president Tsai Ing-wen had to resign as party head.
The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.
peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population)
Again, this was "forced" reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it's not by as high a margin.
No, it was NOT "forced" reunification. The two reunification choices in that poll were "unification as soon as possible" and "maintain status quo, move towards unification," neither of which is forced.
Which poll was this? The last one I saw linked was garbage along these lines though I don't think it was that exact one.
The one linked to in https://hexbear.net/comment/3690000
Thank you for mentioning me. Makes me feel like not all people on this thread is pro-China. :D
"forced unification" is an important part of that. The PRC does not want to invade Taiwan, it wants a peaceful reunification, and both has waited and will -- if necessary -- continue to wait for decades to accomplish that goal. The swing towards the DPP is relatively new and already showing signs of faltering.
OK, but these articles arent alerting on that type of traffic, only when military aircraft are flying near Thailand, so whats the significance of the ADIZ extending into China in this context?
That's exactly what type of traffic these articles are alerting. Which is why there's no need to even pay attention to it.
Also Thailand has had Chinese military visit it's country as well as trained with Chinese soldiers. If you know so little, why comment?
The quoted text in your reply says that the jets crossed a half way point over the sea. They were not over mainland China.
This feels like having a conversation with bing's chat bot.
Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
This is what the original post quoted. Flying over international air space is NOT news worthy. Unless China does it, suddenly it's news. And yes, in case you don't understand, the median line IS international air space. In fact, that's USA's whole point of freedom of navigation is that anyone can fly or sail over that median line.
So if your argument that countries shouldn't freely fly or sail over the Taiwan Strait, you agree with China, NOT Taiwan.
My argument is that you shouldn't fly military aircraft so close to a country in their ADIZ after stating you don't believe they're a country and that you will take them over with violent means if necessary.
Ah classic, your all for rule of law until there's an actor you don't like following rule of law. Suddenly the law should change just for them. Hypocrite.
So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now. You obviously didn't read the article - "Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defence identification zone, or ADIZ."
In international relations, militaries have defined and at times unspoken rules of engagement. This was NOT routine flight over mainland China that you are making out to be, but was a clear breach of said protocols. Thus Taiwan sent its fighter jets to observe the Chinese military aircraft.
I literally quoted the part that you just also quoted, which specifies that some of the craft were merely in the ADIZ, the one thing I was talking about in my comment
I'm so tired of the notion that anyone not being in line with certain narratives is automatically considered a drone.
Like 6ish years ago we all, liberals and leftists together, were creeped out by the right's sudden proliferation of "NPC" memes, correctly pointing out how dehumanizing it is and conjecturing darkly about what exactly this kind of rhetoric was priming these people for. Now, the overton window's so fucked that the we've normalized deploying the exact same invective against anyone who speaks up on behalf of humanity and against a US-dominated world. I've driven past the ruins of the Japanese concentration camps out in the miserable desert, and to know that so many people around me who act self-righteous but stand for nothing would rebuild those camps at the snap of a finger, or the running of an op-ed, or a scary news story....well, these people may haughtily object to being called blue MAGA, but that sure doesn't stop them from doing absolutely fucking everything they can to earn the label.
Waving the Japanese internment camps in our faces isn't some sort of gotcha. We acknowledge their existence and try to do better.
Meanwhile your type denies that Uyghur camps exist, or claim that they're some sort of benign summer camp
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So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now.
Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.
Anyway, people should look at this map and take note of how far Taiwan's ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC's airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.
Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don't think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the "overclaimed" part of the ADIZ.
but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait
It says the jets did that OR were in the southwest zone. It is intentionally vague alarmism.
How is calling out a Chinese bot or Russian bot racist? You are obviously pro-China and you didn't read the article. That makes you a Chinese bot.
You are obviously pro-China (...). That makes you a Chinese bot.
At long last, we've reached the molten core of psychotic liberal solipsism
Dudes making us wheel of time fans look fucking terrible smh
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"How am I being racist? I'm just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot."
This really isn't too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and "bot" as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it's also very racist.
Hush hexbear
Damn I wish my instance wasn't federated with them.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
you're suffering from some serious
brain poisoningThe term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Got'em. You should post hogPermanently Deleted
Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Their account is two years old and has two years of history. Idk if that doesn't show up for you or something, but it is indeed there.
Chinese refers to the people who live there or who's families emigrated from there, not randos online who don't support the rabid NATO line. your racism is showing.
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I am anti-Winnie the pooh led mainland expansionist imperial China.
"Yeah, I am comparing the leader of China to a yellow bear, but it is totally not racist guys. I really care about the chinese people"
Didn't take long for that one to come out, accused of being racist and immediately compares the leader of China to a yellow cartoon bear lmao. Incredible
What's wrong with Winnie the Pooh anyways? Who doesn't want to live the rest of their life eating honey and being a loving, caring member of their community?
I'm so flattered your first comment or post EVER in 3 years is to me. bye!
That is one of the top all time posters over on hexbear. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that established posters are new bot accounts, but it's absolutely not helping you to look less ridiculous
The instance I'm a part of (hexbear) just federated with Lemmy dot ml a week ago. So I don't have many comments on here obviously. I am unfortunately addicted to the internet and have way more comments than that on my accounts main instance. I wish this was my only comment in 3 years lol. Could have got so much done instead of wasting time on my phone.
Cope and cry more racist.
🌽
Imagine going off on people for the age of their account when you've been here for 2 months (reddit refugee) lmao. You don't have the highground here and your feigned elitism makes you look like a clown.
Is this supposed to be another example of you not being racist? Comparing the president of china to a yellow cartoon character?
Oh Winnie the Pooh is a common affectionate nickname for Xi on the internet. Do you not know that comrade?
Yeah I'm fully aware that there are a lot of racists online
Did you know that the "nickname" derived from a myth of the character being banned in China when it is not?
And the racism, don't forget the racism!
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This is amazing o7
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If you want to not show yourself as a bot, you should at least be creative in your racism.
Was West Germany expansionist?
You're expecting this person to know any of this history of China before 2000
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You are obviously pro-China . . . That makes you a Chinese bot.
you, oh enlightened
one, could you perhaps explain to us what the word 'bot' means?Sir or Ma'am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.
My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries' internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It's only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it's not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.
Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so ~by your logic~ I should be against China, which I'm not, because I'm capable of critical thinking.
Oh, and one more thing:
You sound completely deranged.
Need a Sopranos comm.
"You sound demented!"
That's precisely the sort of argument one would expect from a NAFO bot. Hope you earned enough FICO credit points to buy food tonight.
You both quoted the same exact piece of text. You said they didn't read the article but you didn't even bother to read their comment?
You are calling a human being a bot, literally dehumanizing them, because they don't have the same hatred of China as you. You should really check yourself. You are full of hatred and ideological poison. It is clear from your comment that you have limited literacy skills and understanding, you should check out some other perspectives and try to broaden your horizons. Here is one. This is also another incredible resource with a lot of essays and information with a different perspective
Oh another no post history user! welcome to fediverse!
the user you just replied to made their account a year ago and has an extensive post history
And yet that dude is the one calling people bots
No no never engage their statement on it's alleged merits. Kick them in the [redacted] and then ask them why they can't walk while laughing. It is the weirding way.
We should give @RandAlThor@lemmy.ca benefit of the doubt. Sometimes when people view other's profile from another instance, the post history shows up empty.
benefit of the doubt.
Yeah I think that is what's happening. I've tried to explain it to them in a reply
...are you aware you can't see people's post histories if you click their username on lemmy.ca and you have to visit their home instance?
What would that have to do with anything? You should log off and touch grass, bigot.
Everyone who disagrees with me must be a bot.
I bet your response will contain one of more of the following: Winnie the Pooh, social credit, comrade, Uyghurs. Yet you call others bots, lmao.
Looks like you were correct on all of those predictions
Evergreen Goosplan meme.
Uyghurs are experiencing a genocide in China and you think it's spamming to bring it up?
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I can't believe people are still trying to peddle this conspiracy theory in year 2023.
Bro the amerikkkan navy sails it's boats there. Silence, drone.
Uhhh, that's obviously different, America is a
whitewestern country and so it owns the world
of fucking course lol, ugh
Least Sinophobic Canadian
So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now
Beep boop I have been programmed to make really fucking cool historical dramas beep boop (This is my stereotype about China idk what else happens there I just really like Three Kingdoms adaptations did y'all see 2008's Red Cliff it was dope af! John Woo directing!)
MUST MAKE DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF TOM AND JERRY SHITPOSTSMUST POST MEMES OF AN AD FOR MIXUE ICE CITYMUST UPLOAD 12 GB FOLDER OF BIAOQING IMAGES
back to reddit with you
RandAlThor, more like AynRandAlThor
Lenin's only mistake was giving Ayn Rand an education
Bruh lmao
lemmy.ml stands for mega-lib smdh
"or"
not "and", "or".
The southwestern quadrant of Taiwan's ADIZ overlaps with China's ADIZ. If anything, Taiwan is overclaiming their ADIZ.
Check what instance they're from.
First day? Lemmygrad brigades every worldnews thread about China or Russia.
crying about brigades like some loser Redditor
Learn how federation works. Or better yet, go back to reddit.
When I am exposed to multiple people who disagree with me, that's brigading
You seem upset
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Do you have anything to contribute or are you just trolling?
Did you ever check out that thread on lemmygrad I made for you? You never said anything but you might have just forgotten.
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I glanced at it. But you see what's happening here right? These people have no interest in anything but trolling.
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me -- with this very group no less -- but it's good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there's definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit:
also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about "brigading," socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A's comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with "You seem upset," which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse.I misreadIt's not like you said "Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?" and got people screaming "HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!"
I don't think I've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
You sound upset
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You seem upset
