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Would you rather elect Republicans who think Palestinians children are “not so innocent”?
Both parties are beholden to the Israel lobby, but we need to push for change, and this sort of post encourages apathy.
This isn't apathy. Apathy would be quietly sitting in the corner, taking it, without so much as a peep. Seems to me that the apathy is with y'all that continue to vote in elections that you don't ultimately decide. Hillary win the pop vote, trump still won. Biden hasn't reversed any of trumps immigration policies, among other things also left unaddressed. He fucked over the rail workers when they were striking for ONE FUCKING WEEK off sick pay. They are the "backbone of America" but we can't give them that respect and dignity, just so railway owners can rake in profits and a strike breaking president can declare worker organization illegal? His failure in both Palestine and East Palestine are just the tipping point to this rug pull of an administration.
Republicans who think Palestinians children are “not so innocent”?
I mean if the Democrats thought Palestinian children were innocent they'd probably do more to stop the killing.
Both parties are beholden to the Israel lobby, but we need to push for change, and this sort of post encourages apathy.
Or how about we call out the Democrats on their bullshit and push them to make changes now instead of after an election.
"But the Republicans are worse!" is such a cheap cop out.
They have been and are being called out.. they are changing. People keep just reminding you that one party is changing the precident that has stood since 1948. The U.S. recognized Israel on day 1. Undoing 75 years of allied support doesn't happen in a few weeks. As much as we want it so. More than half the U.S. population is still unsure Palestine isn't guilty and deserving of the acts specifically performed by Hamas and the Houthi and being portrayed an veiled in several layers of propaganda via media. If the majority of the citizens don't believe it is wrong, then their representatives surely don't see a reason to change precident, especially when one of the candidates is fighting to keep "chaos" at its highs to ensure it looks bad on the current candidate regardless of whether it is better for the people to make other choices.
More than half the U.S. population is still unsure Palestine isn't guilty and deserving of the acts specifically performed by Hamas and the Houthi and being portrayed an veiled in several layers of propaganda via media.
I think the debate isn't about whether Hamas is guilty of the actions on October 7 (it 100% is), but whether the Palestinian people deserve to be punished.
By this argument the civilians who died on 9/11 deserved to because of US actions in the middle east (they 100% did not).
Always upvote Phil Ochs.
don't criticize Democrats! If you do people become apathetic!
Both parties are beholden to the Israel lobby, but we need to push for change,
Yes. Which is not the Democrats or the Republicans.
I'll do you a better one; if Biden manages to address the issue now and recognizes a Palestinian state before the elections, he's back in business.
If not then he has proven his worth through his actions.
I'm still in camp "the damage is done. Former democrats are disenfranchised by Biden on many levels, not just the Israel level. If the DNC doesn't correct course and produce an alternative, they will lose."
Last time I checked, only something like 2% of voters consider Palestine an important issue. You are vastly overestimating the importance of this war to the average American voter.
What part of "many levels" was unclear?
Besides throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate, or encouraging voter apathy, got any ideas?
Nope. Those are the options the DNC is pushing on us.
Start telling Biden to push through recognition for a Palestinian state.
Start telling Biden to push through recognition for a Palestinian state.
The two-state solution has been openly stated as US policy by Biden.
Biden has not used any legal means to recognize a Palestinian state.
Either he uses the military aid to pressure israel into creating a two state solution (or one-state solution), or he bypasses israel and recognizes a Palestinian state unilaterally.
If he could first stop pouring bombs on every square foot of Gaza that would be nice. Yes, he. He's the enabler of this genocide
What would a two state solution look like on the ground?
The West Bank has been partitioned into de facto bantustans since the Allon Plan. This wouldn't be like the resettlement of Israeli settlers in Gaza in 2005. The forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of settlers, many militant, or the de juro annexation of 60-88% of the West Bank are both terrible solutions. On the other hand, a binational unified one-state solution would prevent those possibilities, while resolving the Right to Return issue that's been present since 1948.
As of January 2023, there are 144 Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including 12 in East Jerusalem.[2] In addition, there are over 100 Israeli illegal outposts in the West Bank. In total, over 450,000 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem, with an additional 220,000 Jewish settlers residing in East Jerusalem.[3][4] ... The year of the disengagement (2005) would see the removal of 8,475 settlers from Gaza, while in that same year the number of new settlers in the West Bank increased by 15,000.[80]
While I agree in principle that a one-state solution is preferable, the reality is that neither side is interested in any one-state solution that the other - or the rest of the world - would find palatable. A two-state solution is uglier and messier and all around worse than a one-state solution, but more viable. "Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable - the second-best."
It is true that neither side is currently interested in a one-state solution. However this comes from different places. From the Palestinian side this comes from necessity as all efforts of a unified state were denied, while from the Israeli side this comes from the concept of transfer and Greater Israel / Eraz Israel.
Looking at apartheid in South Africa, fierce opposition to the ending of apartheid was present for decades before negotiations to end it began. With enough international pressure and internal resistance, the apartheid ended.
However, increasing local and international pressure on the government, as well as the realisation that apartheid could neither be maintained by force forever nor overthrown by the opposition without considerable suffering, eventually led both sides to the negotiating table. The Tripartite Accord, which brought an end to the South African Border War in neighbouring Angola and Namibia, created a window of opportunity to create the enabling conditions for a negotiated settlement, recognized by Niel Barnard of the National Intelligence Service.[2]
Partially necessity and partially the ascendency of Hamas, which is uninterested in any... serious one-state solution. Fatah was much more open to the idea, though they still pushed primarily for the two-state solution.
Of course, Israel fueled Hamas's rise, so there's definitely an element of self-inflicted wounds here too.
I'm not a fan of Hamas due to their war crimes. I'm also not a fan of Fatah due to corruption. And I think we're both in agreement that the Palestinian people should be given the right to a free and fair election to choose their own leaders. You're right that the 1988 charter wasn't a serious one-state solution. It called for Sharia Law and Protected Classes for Christians and Jews like society in the middle east before Western colonialism. But considering the 2017 revised charter, it seems like Hamas is much more willing for a binational one-state solution than Israel is in even a two-state solution.
- Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
I still think Palestinians should be able to choose their own leaders for governance either way. But I don't see how a two state solution is practical at all. With those kind of borders, it would only pave way to more conflict. Palestine would at the very least want to be connected and not be a bunch of small isolated enclaves surrounded by a hostile state, and Israel would want to further encroach into those enclaves.
I don’t think creating apartheid states is the way to peace.
Israel must give full equality to Palestinians, until then we should use isolation and divestment tactics which worked against white supremacists in South Africa.
Also an option. As long as something is done to solve the issue
If Biden really wants to salvage this he can still redeem himself by doing what no American president was willing to do for the last 75 years and actually try to solve the issue instead of hot-potato'ing it.
If Biden really wants to salvage this he can still redeem himself by doing what no American president was willing to do for the last 75 years and actually try to solve the issue instead of hot-potato’ing it.
For all our disagreements, I hope he does.
call for biden, blinken, pelosi, schumer... to resign
Resign over what?
Failing to fulfill the claims that they made to the american people. For sending billions of dollars of aid to fund a genocide. For all the reasons i posted above
Seems like a great idea: remove more democrats from politics. That’ll sure preserve our democracy.
have you heard the song, "Love me, Im a Liberal" by Phil Ochs? You should give it a listen. Democrats have no interest in liberation.
Okay, then how do you recommend I vote this November?
Make no mistake, I’m not asking you to tell me how to vote. I’ve done my homework and research into my local, state, and federal candidates — including the president. However if you are privy to other information that could lead to a more democratic society come next year, I am absolutely all ears.
if you are seriously asking... a general work strike would be more effective. stop the production for the empire until shit changes, for real.
I mean I’d sign onto that. I don’t want it to be just you and me striking tho lol. That’s the problem really, organization.
But ultimately we can both strike and vote, and whether or not I’m on strike I still intend to vote democrat this November
Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist so I doubt that he will change his stance.
Hot take by someone who doesn't understand geopolitics and the Israeli lobbying power, or astroturfing propagandist?