Why do people here really not like Trotskyists?
Why do people here really not like Trotskyists?
Why do people here really not like Trotskyists? Is it just because of his beef with Stalin and not an actual criticism of his views? Do people really not think a global movement would be superior for the betterment of all people?
Edit: Thank you to everyone who provided context and history, y’all are a wealth of knowledge.
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Trots who have never been to AES countries like to tell me all about how China is such a capitalist imperialist nation, and how we must stand against China. Like, what the hell are you talking about? You’re an American, like me, living in get imperial core, benefiting from the exploitation of the working class, and you’re telling me to oppose a country that has done more for its people to lessen that in just the last year than my country has in the last 75? I think American leftists have much bigger priorities than trash talking AES and helping the empire by spreading Sinophobia and lies. Go to China, ask the working class how their lives have changed since they entered the work force. Ask the elderly how their lives have changed since they were kids. Talk to actual Chinese proletariat. Try to avoid using the C word, and focus on material ways their lives have been made better over time. Don’t ask any of them to overthrow their government, that would be stupid as fuck and you’d deserve it if they reported you and got you kicked the fuck out.
As a Trot who has been to China, maybe I can contribute here. Fortunately I've never heard a comrade say we must "stand against China", I don't think any serious Trot would say that, although there are some ignorant people out there. They would hopefully be more discerning and say something like "we of course stand with the Chinese proletariat, the people who have actually produced all the amazing developments in that country over the past several decades, while critiquing its bureaucracy". But above all we'd repeat Karl Liebknecht's slogan "the main enemy is at home". If you live in the US, your main enemy is the American ruling class. In the UK, the British ruling class, etc. If we live in the West, we do indeed have bigger priorities than critiquing the nomenklaturi of nominally socialist states, but we are internationalists and have to examine what is happening around the world. We definitely have to do it in a way that avoids the pitfalls of US State Department talking points, like the whole "debt trap" rubbish. I mean, all that was just regular capitalist business deals.
Having been to China myself, I can't help but agree with the characterisation of China as a capitalist restorationist country - wage labour is still the way things are done, the proletariat doesn't own the means of production, and minumum wages can be very low even in Shanghai (approx. $370 per month, which even considering the massive cost of living difference with the West is a tight budget). Wealth inequality is increasing. Certainly many workers have better conditions now than in 1949, or during the Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution, but economic well-being doesn't equal someone's relation to the means of production. And I'd never support "regime change" in China, actually there's potential for a move back towards socialism and workers' democratic planning, but also interests counteracting that. It's a fascinating place, I wish I had more time to properly study Mandarin. Can recommend the film "We The Workers" for a look into the present class struggle there.
I’m in the middle of something so I don’t have time for a longer more detailed response, but first thanks for your response.
That said, wealth inequality is not rising in China, the Gini coefficient is dropping, and rather rapidly at that.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI?locations=CN
40% of workers work in state owned industries last I checked, and even those in non-directly owned industries often have workers councils and profit sharing, such as Huawei where employees made on average more last year in profit sharing than I did in my US labor aristocrat job in the entire year.
They’ve clearly outlined their development as prioritizing development of productive forces to enable transition to socialist economics more broadly, and nearly every action they take, from the rooting out of corruption and party opulence, to the mass automation of industry, and the prevention of the rising of a landlord class, have been in service of that. Their goals are clearly stated in mandarin media, but you can also just look at Governance of China Vol 1-3(not a small ask, I know) and see their plans laid out plainly and openly, to transition to a fully socialist economy by 2049.
If I have time later I’ll add more sources and I hope you have a great day. You are much kinder than the average IMT member I’ve interacted with in the past.
Edit: real quick, making low wages isn’t that important when PPP is so amazing. My wife works at IKEA, and her ~¥30/hr wage is able to buy about the same quality of life as my $29USD/hr job, though it would not do so in Beijing, or other tier one cities.
such as Huawei where employees made on average more last year in profit sharing than I did in my US labor aristocrat job in the entire year.
Urge to learn Mandarin..... Rising.....
Bit idea: invitation to a reeducation camp where you just learn Mandarin, Chinese history, and get to hang out with leftists in a camp setting somewhere in a Chinese forest.
Even I don’t totally agree, these are all reasonable critiques that we shouldn’t be afraid to investigate further.
I mostly agree, except for the parts that aren’t true, like wealth inequality rising. It reflects a very principled person, at the least, so hopefully with more knowledge, they’d be willing to reexamine their belief.
That sounds pretty reasonable. What exactly is Trotskyism?
The problem with your criticism of China is; no matter how mild, by merely having it you act as a fifth column for the left, even when what you say is true, sometimes you have to lie for the benefit of the left, we should not spread false information about working conditions in China, unless lying benefits the left. We have one singular goal as communists and thats the abolition of private property, while it may sound simple its a hard process and we recognize compromises need to be made in pursuit of that goal, my problem with Trotskyists is that they arent willing to overlook corruption in the pursuit of communism, its utopianism, thats bad. Its better to let corruption exist in leftist orgs and have that corruption be dealt with internally than to compromise the leftist org in the pursuit of fairness or justice or whatever the fuck else. Trotsky didnt deserve to die because he advocated permanent revolution or was mad about the spain thing, he deserved to die because he pissed off stalin and didnt play the social game.
The problem with your criticism of China is; no matter how mild, by merely having it you act as a fifth column for the left, even when what you say is true
Ah, because wasting time talking about something useless is something we should avoid, right?
sometimes you have to lie for the benefit of the left, we should not spread false information about working conditions in China, unless lying benefits the left.
God fucking damn it, were you the person who was on this last time too? If so, please just delete your account. No, lying is antithetical to democracy, the people are not being given a real choice if that choice is misrepresented to them. "Communists disdain to hide their aims," as Marx said.
Trotsky had to die because he was a wrecker who, having escaped the USSR, could hardly be subdued and kept alive.
Weird post
Trying to come up with a word to describe what it's doing. Strawmanjacketing?