Bad faith actors are busy these days.

Sorry, guys. I'm voting for the only candidate that can end global warming.
- Giant Meteor / Butt Stuff ‘24!
  This time we’ll get it in the end!
  
  BOHICA.
- Do you have a newsletter I can sign up for?
- Please don't play with my emotions
- Black hole sun, won't you come
  And wash away the rain
- This is the 3rd party I've been waiting for.
- I'm told all we have to do is throw soup at paintings and that whole problem will just magically go away...

Where are all the Russian plants, oops I mean true progressives, at to tell us we’re just not leftist or progressive enough and Jill is totally definitely only ever trying to improve things for the country, ignoring her meeting with Putin and aides, and also Kamala is literally no different than Trump! Universalmonk, verdantbanana….i need you to straighten OP out! /s
- Jill is too mainstream, I've voting for Rachele Fruit of the Socialist Workers Party!
  
  Vermin Supreme for Every Elected Position 2024. The one true choice.
  
  I was gonna try and write a comment 1upping you because I didn't think Rachele Fruit was a real person, but then I decided to look her up just to double-check. Nope! She's actually a real person.
  
  Oh you've changed the candidate you're backing, huh? You are a very serious voter with real principles and values, Mr. Monk.

If you only care about the duopoly or third parties every 4 years when the Presidential election rolls around, then I regret to inform you but you have fallen for a grift.
If you actually gave a shit about breaking the binary you'd be boots on the ground working to legitimatize third-parties where they're actually viable - local and smaller scale elections.
- I’ve said this so many times before. Only not as succinctly.
  These kids think that they can become activists only one year out of every four, and still have a chance to be the change they want to see. Time and time again, it’s been explained to them that this isn’t how shit works- and what do they do?
  They delete, ban, and report everthing that tries to show them how this doesn’t work.
- The mind reels at how many properly decent and intelligent people have had their political career stillborn because all these "superior" asshole non-voters never bothered to cast ballots for School Board and City Council on up the electoral ladder.
  But you see... that would require... making an effort. And we can't have that, now can we? God forbid! That would mean... soiling those pure, innocent, silky-smooth hands with actual democracy homework.
  They'd always much rather sit their lazy, ignorant asses at home, lovingly yet distractedly fondling their purity, then sniffing their fingers.

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- You blame someone else. It's definitely not your fault, it definitely cannot be that.
- I couldn't possibly pull either lever, that would put blood on my hands! Instead I spend all day on Lemmy urging everyone to pull the display lever. This is different from me touching any levers directly, because reasons.
- Get on the tracks with them. We die together.
- You pull the first lever. I dunno why nobody is answering.
- Is doing my Jason Russell impression an option?
- The trolley problem does not have a correct answer, and a very popular way of thinking is that “if I do not engage the lever, whatever happens next is not my responsibility. If I divert, I will have killed that one person.”
  I’m not American, not here to tell anyone who to vote for
- Why should I accept the assumption that a trump presidency means 100 times more people killed, whether involving American weapons or not?
  
  You don't have to. It's a tongue-in-cheek scenario. I'm not actually comparing real numbers of people who would die. The killing of construction workers in this thought experiment just embodies any negative outcomes, not necessarily just the amount of people who will die, and you can internalize whatever ratio you want to it. Or don't, idc.
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- I said throw shit onto the track to try and stop the trolley once.
  The philosophy majors did not like me pointing out it was ridiculous to imagine the problem existing in a void with an absolute limit on possible courses of action.
  They liked it even less when I reminded them that the problem was invented to make fun of them by a philosopher who was arguing that both courses of action were ridiculous conclusions to reach given the broader context of a trolley crash not existing in a vacuum.
  Thought experiments in the void is how we got the declaration that feathers and lead weights were affected by different rates of gravity.
  
  The philosophy majors did not like me pointing out it was ridiculous to imagine the problem existing in a void with an absolute limit on possible courses of action.
  Holy shit you did it! You beat philosophy! ^^^/s
  
  I'm being completely serious here: if you have trouble understanding the concept of a hypothetical situation, you might be on the spectrum.
  
  Cool, so if you dont vote for Harris, you're wasting your vote.
  I also think philosophy is mostly dumb. But there is a vacuum here, shitty democracy or fascism. You can throw shit on the tracks, that just means one less vote against fascism
  
  I said throw shit onto the track to try and stop the trolley once.
  So you think the right thing to do is something that everyone knows wouldn't make the slightest improvement to the situation?
  https://www.ncesc.com/geographic-pedia/what-can-stop-a-train/

Maybe the most egregious example of this was something I saw yesterday, which was somebody saying "Tim Walz needs to go vegan". When pressed about why him and not, say, Donald Trump, they said that people on the left and center were more likely to actually be swayed. It wasn't worth engaging any further, but I thought it was pretty hilarious that they bothered to try to push the 60-year-old VP candidate to go vegan, but not the 40-year-old VP candidate. Like, you know that you're not pushing the needle for anybody with that post, right?
It's about as useless as making a post saying that JD Vance should hang dry his clothes instead of wasting energy running a clothes dryer.
- Suggesting it's easier to convince a Midwestern football coach/car dad to go vegan than an NYC germaphobe is a level of optimism I have never seen
- Look pal, the general said “sow division” amongst whatever socio-political lines we can see, ok? Why Do You Hate Black Vegan Catholics???
  (/s obl.)

If they spent that energy campaigning for election reform instead of harassing Lemmy users I’d find it more convincing.
- And vote in every local election. So change can happen. I doubt they even do that.

Https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
Third parties are obviously the way any intelligent person may choose to vote. This video explains why they are currently not viable in America. Ranked choice voting has to come before third parties. It's not a moral thing, it's voting math.
- Gonna vote third party as soon as the Democrats and Republicans implement ranked choice voting
  
  It some places it is taking place. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
  
  seriously though is there any way to get to ranked choice voting other than a violent revolution?

They’re not here in good faith and I don’t believe they ever were.

Discouraging 3rd party voting hurts democrats more than anyone. Studies show that 3rd party presidential candidates largely bring out people that would not have voted otherwise and largely benefit the democratic party down-ballot.
Don't tell your apolitical friend about how they shouldn't vote for Cornel. Don't tell your friend about how voting for a 3rd party is pointless. Don't tell your friend to vote for your person. Tell them to vote.
Edit: here's my receipt.
Independent voters supported Democratic candidates over Republican candidates, 49% to 47%, according to the exit poll by Edison Research for CNN, ABC, NBC, and CBS. According to the AP VoteCast survey for The Wall Street Journal and Fox News, independents supported Democrats over Republicans, 42% to 38% ... While independents nationally voted for Democratic candidates by just 2 points, they supported Arizona Sen. Mark Kelly over Republican challenger Blake Masters by 16 points, Georgia Sen. Raphael Warnock over Republican Herschel Walker by 11 points (in the Nov. 8 election), and, for senator from Pennsylvania, John Fetterman over Republican Mehmet Oz by a whopping 20 points. ( My note on Fetterman, this was before the stroke)
- And from a casual perspective, telling people their vote is pointless is (a) a way to show them you're an asshole, (b) mostly pointless, and (c) quite possibly true regardless of how they vote.
  
  Its more accurate to say the worth of a vote can approach but never be zero. Maybe people struggle with the fact that in a presidential race, their vote is one amongst tens or hundreds of millions.
  
  On the other hand, I believe we all have a duty to make fun of Russian propagandists
- I like it. Tell them to vote, then encourage them to vote for Harris (especially if you're in a swing state).
  
  You can try that, but they should be separate conversations. Have one conversation about how voting generally is good. Then have another conversation about candidates. Trying to roll it all in one will still discourage those types of voters for the partisan appearance.

ITT: people skipping over the 39 days bit. Time and place. Let's save the Republic then we work on everything else.
- tbf people have been saying this as far back as Clinton's term.
  There was even discussion of Biden only running for one term before he was elected, yet lots of people here refused to believe anyone who wanted a new candidate was actually a republican in disguise.
  Still, no point voting for a non existent grassroots third party. Green party more or less exists for people who don't want to vote, not a valid anti corporate solution, despite having a decent group of members.
  
  BUT THIS TIME ITS REAL PROMISE!

Where’s that universalmonk blyat?
- You can’t call any of them by name, unlike Beetlejuice. You have to post something positive, even mildly so, about the Harris/Walz campaign. Then all the little rats come scurrying over to tell you how you’re a genocide stan and any real American should be voting for Cornoliverill Stein de la Fruit, and it’s definitely not because daddy Putin said so.
- I broke the script the other day when they said they were ok with a trump second term. That they weren't afraid of trump. I highlighted the conservative judicial appointments impact the working class and minority groups and they simply couldn't address it.
  
  I don’t have to explain anything to you.
- Bidding on Jill Stein’s bath water

look i have had the choice for with or without lube for half a century now. Thing is saying I don't want to get sodomized at all just results in the default of without lube. I hate it with lube but I really, really hate it without.
- Well thats an awful perspective. Have you tried looking at things in a less black and white type of way? You haven't literally been fucked without lube have you?
  
  nope but destroying useful goverment infrastructure and moving the tax burden to regressive taxes taht hit me harder and deregulating things easy do that metaphorically.

What does MRW mean? I'm old.
- Mount Royal / Walsh Inc. is the leading and largest Topside Privately Owned Montreal Ship Repair facility for the Marine Industry in Canada. We offer a full range of ship repair services to meet all your needs. We repair ships of all types including tankers, container ships, general cargo ships and cruise ships.
  
  I fcking knew it. These people can't go one minute without bringing that place up. It's disgusting.
- My Reaction When…
  
  Cool, thank you

Bad faith actors are out here trying to channel energy into a psuedo-democracy instead of participating in bottom up politics.
If you care about stopping fascism, join a socialist org. Donald Trump isn't some anomaly, he is a result of systemic economic forces that bring imperialist violence back to our shores as global resistance makes our imperial influence overseas wane. Democrats (the people who control the democratic party, not like, voters) do not want to bring an end to the system that creates this phenomenon, they directly profit from it.
You can't base your opposition to fascism by voting for a party that supports the conditions that are creating fascism. I dont care who you vote for, go hog wild, but join a socialist org if you care about stopping fascism in the long term.

Why are the centrists so antagonistic this week ?

I would rather someome vote for a party other than Dem or Rep, than not vote at all.
- Mathematically the same thing in almost every case.
  
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- TANKIE DETECTED
  
  ... Because I want people to vote? I did not expect that to be a hot take.
  
  Average lemmy world user. Yall call people tankies the same way maga calls people socialists.

My Reaction When…

Yeah, I'm gonna continue with my lesser evil voting like I do every election. The Democrats pinky promise that they will put forth good policy in the next election cycle.
- Until they win and throw it out on day one like they have checks notes every other time.
  
  "It's gonna different be this time, bro. I promise, bro. We just need to win the House and the Senate. And then Kamala Harris can only make any significant changes in her second term otherwise people won't vote for her 2028. You just have to be patient, bro."

"We're the good guys, we just think anybody who doesn't support our person is literally evil and only not supporting our person out of an extremist desire for accelerationism and literally no other reason, and that they are the real evil of this country, not Republicans"
Yeah democrats are sooooooo different, nuanced, and level headed. 🙄
- I think you might be missing the point of this meme.
- That was a lot easier of an argument to make before Biden started giving billions of dollars to a war criminal.
- Funny how that exact same sentence makes just as much sense if it were to come from a smug pseudo-intellectual far leftist.
  And the audacity of you to bring up nuance. THAT…. Is fucking hilarious!
- Blue MAGA 🙈🙉

Nothing gets better permanently under Democrats. Nothing gets better under Republicans. You sir or ma'am, are a moron, and a traitor to the Republic. You've chosen the side of traitors. You're either a shill, or a willing idiot. Your kind have a new world to face. One without your comfortable lies instead of inconvenient truths. Now your kind along with everyone else your kind has doomed, has to face harsh realities. Enjoy the apocalypse. Should be a show.
- Did you know that one hundred percent of democrats die?
  
  Chuck Schumer will live forever.
- Oh now you're saying there's going to be an apocalypse? Lol.
  This guy cracks me up
- TANKIE DETECTED

Gotta excuse supporting genocide in good faith. After all it is an election year
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  In case you aren’t aware, Biden, not trump is currently responsible for supplying the weapons being used for the genocide going on right now. Are you cool with whitewashing genocide? Or is gaslighting your thing?
- TANKIE DETECTED
  
  Blocklist member detected.
  Seriously, we should collect such nicknames in a convenient list so that everyone would block you as they register.
  People like you bring 0 useful contribution and only make this place shittier.

Assuming bad faith over everyone who disagrees with you is a first step to fanaticism and vulnerability to external opinion.
Weaponizing tribe mentality to reach your goals is very bad long-term, and makes yourself susceptible to the same trap.
Lemmy, unfortunately, is very prone to that. Remember that time people called here for Biden to step down and were downvoted into oblivion? Where were they when he actually stepped down and everyone started cheering for Harris all of a sudden?
There are valid reasons to NOT vote for the Democratic party in these elections, even if you clearly don't side with the Republicans.
- Bye Felicia.
  
  It's actually spelled Felisha. You should always watch the credits of great works of art.
- The one valid reason not to vote Dem/Repub this cycle has been to not support genocide, which ultimately supports genocide except the voter can dissociate their vote from the outcome. Other than that, I haven't seen any other valid arguments to vote 3rd party, particularly when looking at what those candidates would do if they won. Holding the presidency with all of Congress against you means you can't get anything done, so it's a waste of 4 years.
  The argument of bad faith you've made sounds awfully like the beginning of a slippery slope argument.
  
  One important and vocalized point is to hold Democrats accountable for their actions. This isn't limited to genocide.
  Because as things stand, Dems can get away with anything as long as they are marginally less terrible than Republicans. And as the goalposts move every time, situation gets worse and worse.
  Voting third party might force Democrats to actually implement changes they propose in order to attract more third party voters to ultimately win the election.
- Go Team Harris!
- Noooo you aren't allowed to say that!
  One of the mouth breathing imbeciles who will determine our future based on a confluence of distraction, idiocy, and geography might read it and think they too have a choice!
  Or worse yet enough people might get the idea that their vote is more than just something to throw away. If even 1% of the country grows that way each cycle corporate profits might be threatened at some point!
  Believe the people who sobbed their hideous wretched guts out that we had to support Biden! They're never wrong On PuRpOsE!
  
  You sound like you get bullied a lot and you don't really understand why everyone is ok with it
- Haha this, libs are so cruel and violent that they can't possible imagine someone taking a principled stance on genocide.
  These were the same libs decrying the "violence" of broken windows and looting during the George Floyd riots.
  
  Assuming bad faith over anyone who disagrees with you
  libs are so cruel and violent
  This is what leftist lemmy actually is. Voices of reason being underscored by the very same bad faith assumptions from a "morally superior" position.
  All so you can feel better about the fact that people with your moral standing have zero power here while the rest of us actually try to keep this country from going tits up.
  Do you honestly think the people you label as libs want genocide?