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Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don't differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i've seen some straight up 'they had it coming' style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that's how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn't, you call them a hypocrite.
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i'm sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
Yes, it's really just about how the land is called and who makes the rules. There are Israelis living in Palestine and Palestinians are citizens of Israel already.
It's dumb af
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I'm talking about commentary i've seen. People very careful to say 'i'm not an antisemite buuuuuuut'
Yeah. Sure.
Yeah no. These two should be disconnected.
dude if you go "I'm not an antisemite but those festival goers absolutely had it coming" then you are at the very least an utter cunt.
Wasn't saying that. Was saying that being antisemite and condemning Israel's actions are two different things.
and I was pointing out that some people are using this as an opportunity to be antisemitic. Calling israel out on its bullshit is one thing, but we're legit seeing people saying the victims of the attack had it coming for being israelis having a festival relatively near gaza.
Victim blaming is dumb af imho
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
IDK about the person you're responding to, but
who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
There are a lot of Jews that don't fit into either of those categories. Ethnic and cultural Jewish people that don't practice or believe in Judaism as a religion are very common. I call myself Jewish, because my mother and my grandmother are Jewish, but I don't practice the religion. I'd recommend googling Jewish Atheism and Jewish Secularism for more info.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It's crazy.
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
I'm one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people's right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won't stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
Then how about your government stop killing and abusing Palestinians. It's almost as if decades of apartheid oppression, murder, and human rights abuses have consequences
They specifically stated that they where attending anti-governmsnt protests. 🙄
Awh that's great! They've attended anti government protests. I guess we can ignore the call for a heavy handed ruthless response in retaliation in that same comment or the implicit support of their government's ongoing role in the bombing and murder of civilians. Also, nowhere did I see them specifically decrying their government over the Gaza response, only in response to "corruption"
Sounds like you wish death for all Israeli civilians, which isn't very cool of you.
Do you think Hamas would stop, if Israel stopped bombing them right now?
Do you think it's a normal request to ask 1 million people to evacuate in 24 hours? Do you think shutting off water and electricity to Gaza is justified? Should hospitals continue to get bombed?
What would happen if blockade was lifted, evacuation order cancelled and all Israeli soldiers retreated?
Well now we're talking. That would result in the apartheid ending, which is a good thing. It's weird that you're framing the end of the apartheid as a bad thing.
Do you think that Hamas would stop too?
Do you think that Hamas would stop too?
Yes.
This is always the biggest give away of apartheid societies:
We can't stop oppressing them! They'd do to us what we've been doing to them!
Every. Single. Time.
Do you think Hamas will stop if Israel keeps bombing them now?
Well yes, once they're bombed into oblivion.
Sounds like you're a moron without reading comprehension ability and an agenda to push
I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn't come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it's complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It's impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn't about religion, or even very much about race. It's about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn't make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel's founding.
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take.
There is some history to back this up, especially among older folks. I know I've heard a few irl antisemitic tirades start off with a testing of the waters by complaining about Zionists
Although for real, Jewish people are cool and great, but fuck Zionists.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it's very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here's an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I'm going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential "Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world" it never would have received this much positive attention.
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Often it's real antisemitism, yeah
I'm a big proponent of understanding folk better. Zionism is one of those terms with subtext. Acquaintances I know who use it (some of whom I can believe not understanding the subtext) do a better job explaining that they don't support ethnostates rather than they don't support zionism.
But to be fair my experience is mostly people half a globe away trying to look like they're staying current and relevant in the news and trying to show sympathy with people they view as oppressed and hurt, without taking the time to truly dig into the history of the conflict and having never even heard the word intifada. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt while sharing with them the tiny bit I've learned. They do the same for me. We've got a wide variety of views at one of my lunch groups and it's phenomenal.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he'd have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don't condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn't trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That's just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they're enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don't know if there's any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn't lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
There is no argument for "both sides bad" when one side is currently right now this instant blowing up hospitals, schools, and children. One side is objectively worse and it's the side hiding behind the skirts of "antisemitism" as they carry out an Arabic genocide
I disagree.
Both sides are bad, no matter who is currently the aggressor.
Now because there is aggression, the aggressor has an obligation to stop it, and we have an obligation to force a stop in the conflict as well. But that doesn't make the other party less Bad in this. Both sides killed a lot of innocent people, both have inhumane ulterior motives and both are supporting further escalation. But ofc if there's only one party doing the fighting, then that's the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
This distinction is very important to me, because you are not suddenly the good guy because you stopped killing civilians. You are just not actively doing war crimes which means we don't have to intervene because of you anymore, which is at least one less reason. But you are not holy because "this year it was only 300 war crimes".
"Both have inhuman ulterior motives"
Palestine wants to be free
Israel wants to genocide Palestine and live in their homes
Yes I can see how wanting liberty and self governance is exactly the same as wanting more land for your historically landless people regardless of how many natives you have to kill. Completely balanced
The attacks weren't perpetrated by a free Palestinian people or some recognized advocacy group, but by an extremist wing of the Muslim Brotherhood that has been pushed by Israel for decades.
And the Palestinians vote them in.
If White Southerners are responsible for the Civil War, the Palestinian people bear responsibility for choosing a genocidal majority.
My sympathy for the Palestinians only goes so far—it ends with their ballot box.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Palestine doesn't have a strong democratic tradition to begin with. Additionally, Hamas is only governing Gaza, not the West Banks. Hamas also suppresses secular Freedom organizations. And ~50% of the people in Gaza wouldnt even be able to vote out Hamas since they are under 18. Then we have the case of Hamas indoctrination, which finds fertile soil in the impoverished and destitute Gaza youth.
All of that isn't to say I support Hamas. I am quite vocal in my disdain for them. But Israel plays a significant part in their success. So does Iran. And let's not forget that the religious right has been torpedoing a resolution aswell, not just the Jihadist organization Hamas. Rabin wasn't killed by a palestinian hardliner.
“Strong democratic tradition”? So you’re arguing that they were too stupid to vote is what you’re saying?
Hamas’ charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel.
They don’t want a resolution.
When did the Palestinians vote last? What were the demographics of that vote? Are you completely confident it was a purely democratic vote or was it the kind of democracy Putin got voted by? Perhaps the kind kim was voted in by? Or do you think Palestinians have an electoral college like the US?
2006. They were judged free and fair by observers. Hamas won the majority, to the surprise of many outside the region.
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Lmfao that hasn't been true since Athens invented democracy. Alcibiades was elected plenty and still turned traitor. The average Palestinian doesn't support Hamas, but they're not going to denounce one of the few factions actually fighting towards their goals. Get Israel out of Palestine and you'll be amazed how few rockets will fly
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As a native American in modern America, tell me more about how the terrorists won. Lmao my people also fought back, were labeled "terrorists" (read "savages" for old timey historically accurate racism flavor), and were damn near driven to extinction. There's a reason I'm French Indian instead of just Indian.
So forcing an entire people's into ghettos and taking their land, while putting them under blockade and only reluctantly letting I'm small amounts of aid and food, all while bombing them weekly is actually good, because sometimes they fight back, making them the aggressor?
The post you replied to called no actor in this good. That's your own forced dichotomy. To condemn an act does not mean you condone every act taken in response.
But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
Hamas never stopped fighting and they still have about 200 hostages. What makes you think that the IDF would stop fighting now?
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
They're also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.
Dare I say all this could have been avoided if they weren’t mistreated for nearly 70 years?
What about people ignoring the possibility of a comet hitting the earth?
What about the second coming of Jesus?
The christian churches around the world would hate that. He'd hand their asses to them for being backwards bigots and overall betrayers of his message.
I'm extremely curious what you see as the complete history.
I don't see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.