To people voting for Biden, what will make you not vote for him in the general election?

goes into askchapo comm

"I don't have any interest in interacting with any of you"

Are you lost?

Lost? No. Misguided? Probably. Foolish? Definitely
- What am I supposed to take away from this?
  
  What am I supposed to take away from this?

Glad to hear you'll be giving your enthusiastic endorsement to genocide. Make sure to tell the guy whose kid just got blown up about Project 2025. It'll definitely make him feel better

Nooo you don't get it, it's not a game and they're a real adult in the room! They ran the model and plugged in the data, and has an expected value of 2,999,999,999 innocent deaths while will cause 3,000,000,000!

The republican candidates are horrible people

Meanwhile Genocide Joe is actually a saint

Every comment so far is a bad faith response.

We can tell when we're being a lil stinker, it's funny you read it as bad faith.

Now that I'm home on a full keyboard, let's commence the entertainment, shall we?

A bad faith response (because, not a single comment so far as an argument) puts words in my mouth, like

So as long as Biden “If there wasn’t an Israel we’d have to invent one” isn’t literally bathing in the blood of Palestinian children he’s still the lesser evil?

or

Meanwhile Genocide Joe is actually a saint

I didn't say either of those things.
- Now that I'm home on a full keyboard, let's commence the entertainment, shall we?
  
  absolute fucking reddit moment.
  
  New site tagline.
  
  How do we submit them lmao that is fucking gold
  
  this is all a game to me
- Now that I'm home on a full keyboard, let's commence the entertainment, shall we?
  
  Oh here we fucking go.
- Oh I'm actually a bad faith actor, but the Democratic party support GI (genocide indigenous) Joe and any candidate they put forward will too. Anyone that doesn't say they'll bring their client state to heel is a war criminal that should probably be hung.
- Now that I'm home on a full keyboard, let's commence the entertainment, shall we?
  
  What a fucking line, the Reddit energy is off the charts
- I didn't say either of those things.
  
  About every environment with contested conversations involves restating someone else's position in a less favorable light. Not using your word-for-word comment is not putting words in your mouth; that's how normal discussions work.
  
  You said the Republican nominee would be a horrible person, with the obvious implication that Biden is better. The comments you're complaining about are pointing out that Biden is a horrible person as well -- a substantive argument.
- put on a fedora and call me "m'lady" you fucking coward

So as long as Biden "If there wasn't an Israel we'd have to invent one" isn't literally bathing in the blood of Palestinian children he's still the lesser evil?

You really think they'd balk at voting for him if he was literally bathing in the blood of children?

But if it was Biden v trump, what action would he have to take for you to abstain from voting? I figured you wouldn't vote for trump - I don't think anybody on Hexbear will unless they're going for accelerationism or are in a blue state.

I mean...it's basically less evilism, as y'all like to call it.

Yes, I'm fully aware that Joe Biden not only didn't stop the deportations along the border, but actually increased them. Yes, I'm fully aware that Joe Biden's response to Israel is so weak as to literally alienate the entire Arab world against the U.S. (as if they weren't reasonably already). And yes, I'm fully aware that Joe Biden is old af and really should be dead at this point. Every criticism you have of Joe Biden I'm likely to agree with.

But, for me (which is to say, this does not apply to everybody, only me), it'd be practically evil to not vote for Biden. These last few elections have basically been a "Did you stop beating your wife" kinda of situation with no room for pausing to unpack how fucked up it all is. So, I'll answer yes, I did stop beating my wife, rather than say I'm continuing to harm the love of my life.

So, what would he have to do for me to abandon him? Well, a turn to the blatant authoritarianism of the Republicans would be a start. Abandoning his clear adherence to the rule of law to get shit done, would also do it. Basically, the more he becomes a modern Republican, the less likely I'll vote for him, In other words, the more the loaded question becomes a baseless assertion, from asking "Did you stop" to just saying "You're definitely beating your wife and now you'll rot in jail forever", makes it far less likely I'll see any difference between them.

For the record, bathing in Palestinian blood would definitely be a deal breaker.
- Abandoning his clear adherence to the rule of law to get shit done, would also do it.
  
  Rule of law in America is only the rule of the bourgeoisie. Where is the rule of law in his response to Israel? Oh right, it's the rule of Israel's law.
  
  Rule of law in America is only the rule of the bourgeoisie
  
  In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.-Anatole France
  
  Where is the rule of law in his response to Israel? Oh right, it’s the rule of Israel’s law.
  
  Do you think I disagree? Israel is able to flaunt international law because of Joe Biden's non-response and the support of the United States in general. And it is Israel who is directly morally responsible for the death of Palestinians (and probably Raytheon/Lockheed Martin). Ultimately, Joe Biden is tangential to the fact that the Israeli government is misanthropic and murderous. Do you think a strong condemnation would stop Israel from invading Palestine? Because that's more foolish than anything I believe.
  
  I think that Israel is only able to exist thanks to its benefactors giving it billions in military aid year after year, so there's no sense acting like Biden's hands are tied when they are firing rockets made by America's MIC.
  
  Sanctioning Israel, while imminently deserved, would be political suicide in the U.S. It would be functionally indistinct from just literally slapping Netanyahu and calling him a bitch.
  
  Sanctioning Israel would be rad, but it would also fracture the western economy. I'm not saying sanction Israel, I'm saying just turn off the endless spout of money going from the US to Israel in aid and instantly-forgiven "loans" and so on.
  
  But beyond that, I think it would be good to not let neoliberals dictate to you what is viable. If this dude had some epiphany and became an anti-Israel politician, he'd take the stance supported by the clear majority of the country. If he loses re-election, who cares? He can demonstrate how powerful the zionist character assassination machine is and retire both rich and much more beloved than he will be here in our reality.
  
  You can't just wait for the establishment to give you permission to make transgressions, you need to make them and keep making them until you have established new norms. Of course, Biden is the establishment, so he is part of the problem rather than part of the solution, which is why I'll vote for PSL or whatever.
  
  I'm not saying sanction Israel
  
  Literally slapping Bibi and calling him a bitch would a.) Be very funny and b.) Possibly create an off ramp for the brewing Israeli civil war.
  
  Do you think a strong condemnation would stop Israel from invading Palestine?
  
  In your own comment, you already named Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, the AMERICAN companies that are directly enabling the genocide. who was asking for a strong condemnation, we were asking for them to stop giving Israel weapons! The power is literally in the US' hands!
  
  Biden didn't give a "non response". he's not ambivalent and ignoring the situation. He SUPPORTS Israel, he will not even entertain the idea of a ceasefire. He is taking an active role in genocide.
- Abandoning his clear adherence to the rule of law to get shit done, would also do it.
  
  In general? Like, if Joe Biden became the Dark Brandon meme over night and started drone striking US Senators that didn't approve of climate change legislation and started packing SCOTUS with radical leftists you'd be against that?
  
  packing SCOTUS with radical leftists
  
  Like...packing the Supreme Court with...the literal Marxists? Fuck no, I wouldn't be against that. God, to watch a legal Marxist challenge Clarence Thomas on the fake, ephemeral historical analysis of originalism would be breathtakingly beautiful in its absolute devastation.
  
  if Joe Biden became the Dark Brandon meme over night and started drone striking US Senators that didn’t approve of climate change legislation
  
  Okay, that'd be bad.
  
  you think the lives of a handful of the shittiest people on earth isn't a price to pay for averting the millions of deaths caused by those same shitty people blocking meaningful actions to undo the damage humanity has done to our environment?
  
  Sweetie, it's not just their lives we'd be sacrificing, it'd be the nooooorms and the noooooance! We need to vooote climate regulations in, not use the same means of securing political goals we use every time a Latin American president nationalizes a natural resource!
  
  lmao I thought you were OP replying for a hot second, you gotta spell it sweaty next time
  
  to watch a legal Marxist challenge Clarence Thomas on the fake, ephemeral historical analysis of originalism
  
  You're thinking way too small.
  
  Maybe arrest Thomas for his blatant corruption. Or after Dobbs, order the federal government to ignore it and tell states that if they pass anti-abortion laws you'll cut off federal funding. Can't find anyone to do these objectively good things? Saturday Night Massacre the bureaucracy until you do.
- So Biden denying the Palestinian death toll doesn't count as "bathing in Palestinian blood" cause where I'm from that's what that looks like
  
  But that's just a metaphor. And it's like saying not mentioning the abduction of women on Native American reservations is living in their house. It's only convincing if you already agree with it. Nor does it actually prove anything. It's good for an applause light, but you're not really making an argument, you're merely equating two disparate things. I don't agree with the definition, so I don't buy that he's bathing in any blood.
  
  Furthermore, denying the Palestinian death toll makes sense to me in some circumstances. Relying on Israeli counts of it makes no sense in any circumstance.
  
  It's not a metaphor, (also your example is called an omission not a metaphor) and he didnt do any omission his admin straight up said there are no red lines in terms of how far Israel's military campaign can go and denying death tolls adds to that approval and complicity, that's called genocide assistance and denial
  
  FUTHERMORE he didn't deny the Israeli counts (whatever the fuck that means) he denied the numbers coming from the Gazan Health Ministry which is UN affiliated and internationally recognized as reliable
- Abandoning his clear adherence to the rule of law to get shit done, would also do it.
  
  So if he were to actually start being effective?
- I read your entire response and appreciate your answer. I'm glad we can agree that Biden is at least shitty.
  
  I also appreciate you taking personal ownership of your moral reasoning behind your vote. But I think the personal connections you have to your vote may be missing some broader context.
  
  This stuck out to me:
  
  Well, a turn to the blatant authoritarianism of the Republicans would be a start.
  
  I feel that 'authoritarianism' as a term feels reductive. It's a term used to describe a politician's behavior instead of specific actions that we can assign morality. Providing weapons in another country or withholding support during a domestic crisis are more specific and can better crystallize what is wrong with a government or politician. In media narratives, 'authoritarian' is used to criticize without looking at the material changes that happen.
  
  I think if Biden used the full force of his legal executive powers to do things to undo the harm of trump's presidency, that would be considered authoritarian and would be an unprecedented display of political power. I also think that would be a welcome and appropriate action to take.
  
  You also used the word 'blatant' and I thought that was significant too. Trump was blatant with a lot of the shit he pulled in office. Appointing people with awful track records and making speeches that threatened people were blatant. However, 'blatant' is subjective.
  
  What was blatant to you with trump was a reality a lot of people experienced before 2016 and after 2021. For me, what changed was aesthetics. Biden didn't have to say anything to keep the cages open. He didn't have to do much to let Roe v Wade get overturned. He could say he condemned the decision and then not have to do anything because that would be authoritarian. He felt no strategic need to undo trump's actions and so he didn't. He's just not saying the quiet part out loud.
  
  It's definitely a fucked up situation we're in, but Biden won't save it, nor will the party who props him up even now.
  
  Also, the adherence to the rule of law seems like a shaky standard given the people in charge of making the laws. Shakier considering how often legal loopholes come out of the woodwork to prevent meaningful policies from happening, like the parliamentarian. I'd only be okay with the rule of law if US law was in any way fair or just.
- "Did you stop beating your wife"
  
  when she used the safe word
- Abandoning his clear adherence to the rule of law to get shit done, would also do it.
  
  If following the rule brought you to this, of what use is the rule?
  
  The rules are pointing us off a cliff. They have no intrinsic value.

Cool, so when Biden (or the next guy) loses because our electoral system is inherently flawed, I assume you have plans in place to deal with that right?

Word. They've been lesser eviling for fifty or sixty years, never having any conception of an off-ramp, and now they're swearing allegiance to the ultimate and final evil, knowingly, willingly.

Why is Project 2025 a "death knell"?

It’s not. One of these days I need to do a post on why this whole Project 2025 thing is fake. It’s a “plan” that sounds like it was written up by a 15 year old that has no idea how government bureaucracy works. If it actually is a plan and not a DNC op to scare people into voting, it’s not going to actually work.

The idea that you can switch out bureaucrats with party loyalists is a joke. If the CPSU couldn’t do it, then the GOP sure as hell won’t pull it off. Bureaucracies just don’t work that way.
- If it actually is a plan and not a DNC op to scare people into voting, it’s not going to actually work.
  
  it'll work when the democrats do it five years later as a gesture of bipartisanship
- Idk about the new crop of weirdos, but the old gop wanted to gut the federal government until it could no longer function as a regulatory enforcer. They made it like 85% of the way there before being mostly shut out by the evangelican fascists.

As long as someone more effective and observably better than Trump is running and polling well they have your vote?

Edit: apparently the above question was in bad faith. I thought it was TOO charitable to the completely spineless sentiment in the comment I was replying to, but I guess I forgot that anything less than complete capitulation before the vote bloo no matter whoo crowd is bad faith.

Actually, you're not too far off. You did put words in my mouth, but you're basically correct.
- Didn't mean to put words in your mouth, just trying to capture how your position plays out in practice because I prefer to argue based on concrete reality instead of vague principles.
  
  My issue with your position is that the American political establishment has been bilaterally inching closer and closer to embracing fascism, with both Republicans and Democrats rallying around the flag and collaborating in every imperialist project. The differences between the parties amount to genocide of the brown, queer, and poor now, vs genocide of the brown, queer, and poor later (and with a human face). Repeatedly voting for the lesser evil is what brought us into this position, because the only representation those minority groups have ever had is a party that didn't truly make any progress for them except when politically convenient, and has held them hostage with the same "lesser evil" logic. When these vulnerable groups are held hostage, no progress can be made by moving to the left, because too many people are too scared to rock the boat and try an actual progressive option. Because of the broken electoral system, and the inherently flawed nature of democracy under capitalism, participating in democracy as the only means of political action is a dead end and nothing but a waste of energy.
  
  Instead, what I, and many others in this site, believe is in the participation in the electoral process only as a means of legitimizing the other side of political struggle which takes place on the streets. Mutual aid, agitation, strikes, and other forms of political action building toward a socialist revolution is the only path toward social and economic justice. There's already been a century of leftists trying to entry their way into American political institutions through elections, and if we've achieved any progress at all the progress is swiftly dismantled in times of economic crisis in favor of privatization and reactionary policies. The time for lesser evilism has passed a long time ago.
  
  You said
  
  Repeatedly voting for the lesser evil is what brought us into this position, because the only representation those minority groups have ever had is a party that didn’t truly make any progress for them except when politically convenient, and has held them hostage with the same “lesser evil” logic
  
  Make it convenient, then. What you and others already believe does exactly that:
  
  Mutual aid, agitation, strikes, and other forms of political action building toward a socialist revolution is the only path toward social and economic justice.
  
  I don't think participation in the electoral process is mutually exclusive with mutual aid, agitation, strikes, and other forms of political action. Moreover, as the far right has demonstrated quite convincingly, it is easier to commandeer what already exists than to invent it anew. I believe support of political leaders would make it easier to facilitate social and economic justice, at least in the United States. But it's not the only method that matters, and, again as the far right has demonstrated, not even the most important one.
  
  It actually bothers me a lot that leftists don't really have large networks of parallel institutions like the right does...
  
  There’s already been a century of leftists trying to entry their way into American political institutions through elections, and if we’ve achieved any progress at all the progress is swiftly dismantled in times of economic crisis in favor of privatization and reactionary policies.
  
  Not all of it though (yet). I mean, before the Great Depression, social security didn't exist. It's still around even has it has come under attack in these times of manufactured (it's always manufactured) economic crisis. So, why has that one stuck around while others have fallen away? What about progressive or socialist policies in other countries that have stood the test of time? How did their development progress over time such that they gained staying power?
  
  These questions are more important and interesting to me than "How do we dismantle and rebuild everything".
  
  And if we have to start with Joe Biden vs Trump, then god damn it, Biden it is. And we'll work from where we are and try to get where we want to go.
  
  Make it convenient, then. What you and others already believe does exactly that:
  
  Voting for Democrats no matter what does the opposite! You're telling them that they can keep doing what they're currently doing, passively accept Palestinian genocide (not to mention trans genocide at home), because you're too scared of the stick to stop falling for the carrot. The only way we can "make it convenient" for Democrats to cede to our demands is to withhold our support unless they earn it with actual progressive policies. And that is especially true in times of crisis like now, because they need every vote they can get. Folding early and telling them we'll vote for them no matter what is no way to wield power, it's actually just giving up what little power we have.
  
  I don't think participation in the electoral process is mutually exclusive with mutual aid, agitation, strikes, and other forms of political action.
  
  That's true, and normally I don't get mad at people for voting for Dems for this exact reason, you can definitely do multiple things at once. But if participation in the electoral process means you're compromising with a candidate who is actively supporting genocide, it IS mutually exclusive with anything remotely close to a leftist position.
  
  It actually bothers me a lot that leftists don't really have large networks of parallel institutions like the right does...
  
  The kind of thing that happens when the FBI blackmails, maligns, or straight up murders them all...
  
  What about progressive or socialist policies in other countries that have stood the test of time?
  
  Social Democracy is only allowed to exist in the interim period between crises of capitalism. It is, objectively and demonstrably, the moderate wing of fascism because without failure every social democratic party will side with fascists before they side with communists once their precarious state of being is threatened. Quoting Stalin from Concerning the International Situation,
  
  but now that the proletariat is defeated, the bourgeoisie no longer needs fascism and can afford to use “democracy” instead, as a better method of consolidating its victory.
  
  So my conclusion is, if you wanna be a well behaved little voter and keep settling for genocidal imperialists, go ahead, keep telling Dems that Palestinian lives are not worth enough to change their policy positions at all. After all, we might get someone even scarier if we don't :vote:, someone who doesn't respect the norms!
  
  stfu redditor
  
  Death to America