Ideology gap increase between young men and women in various countries.
Ideology gap increase between young men and women in various countries.
More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
You're viewing a single thread.
Is anyone brave enough to ask why?
Women are rightfully concerned about the loss of bodily autonomy. They don't want to live in the handmaids tale.
I'm sure that is part of it but proposing that as the sole reason seems unnecessarily reductive.
When pregnancy and child birth are such a monumental part of a persons life, and the ability to choose whether or not to go through that process is taken away, it makes a lot of sense why this is the 'sole reason' for some women. As someone who very recently gave birth, everything else in the world and other political topics are dwarfed by the absolute earth-shattering life event that is bringing a child into this world. I think it is something that people who haven't been through it themselves, or who are not empethetic can not wrap their heads around. But there is absolutely a reason why many women are voting liberal for abortion rights alone. That is the single freedom that contributes most directly to a womens adult life. While tax policies and national affairs have an impact on everyones day to day lives, reproductive rights have an acute impact on womens immediate futures.
Abortion is undoubtedly a big reason for shifting voting habits for a large number of women. However, it is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the way conservatives, particularly conservative men, treat and talk about women.
I know women who describe themselves as pro-life and yet have moved away from the Republican party due to the way they have handled various GOP leaders sex scandals, rape accusations, and general attitude towards women. They don't want abortion rights restored and yet they are turning away from Republicans. That is why I say that viewing this shift in voting habits solely through the lens of reproductive rights is unnecessarily reductive. By doing so you are excluding women who are part of that shift from consideration both in this discussion and in the larger view of what women in America want their future to look like. Your experience, while not uncommon, is not universal and any discussion that frames a complex issue in such a way is missing part of the picture.
Oh there are absolutely women who have turned their backs on the conservative party for those reasons and remain pro life. Personally, I see the issues as interconnected. It feels like we see a headline at least once a month where a conservative politician had an extra marital affair and was perfectly fine insisting their girlfriend get an abortion so that they can maintain their squeaky clean image. Or if their daughter had premarital sex and her successful college career was in jeopardy they would see things differently. Rules for thee and not for me. The shift is obviously more nuanced than a single issue, but reproductive rights radiates through a lot of different issues because it has to do with specifically men and their belief that their opinion matters more than others.
Do those same women think other women should die for a miscarriage like has happened twice now because of its connection to abortion. Or how about the lady face a life sentence in prison for a miscarriage. I think youβre utterly discounting the seriousness of all of that.
Youβd have to ask the pro life women. All he is saying is that the issue most important to you and many other women is not the only issue affecting these trends.
Thatβs literally all the other poster is saying.
You are exactly right. Thank you for not trying to pull extra information out of what I'm saying.
Bro really said that losing all right to bodily autonomy isn't a good enough reason to dramatically shift someone's political leaning
I didn't say that at all and if that's what you thought I said then your reading comprehension skills could use some work. I said reproductive rights are a part of a larger culture shift in how women vote. If even one woman has started voting against Republicans for reasons other than abortion access then your dumb assertion that they don't care about anything else falls apart. So maybe you should stop trying to simplify complex issues into easy to digest soundbites in order to make yourself seem like the most intelligent person in the room.
You're right, but man reading this is insufferable. You could be much more effective if you weren't trying to be a dick in your responses.
If you read the comment that preceded my response and came away thinking that I'm the one who devolved the conversation to this point then I'm going to have to disagree with you. That guy was clearly trying to stroke his own ego by putting someone else down and vapid grade school bullying tactics are something of a pet peeve of mine. My original comment was perfectly civil.
That explains the US, but that's about it.
For example Europe there are no movements towards making abortion illegal, quite the contrary.
They see what can happen over seas
True - the US of late has been a great inspiration for what NOT to do.
This is probably more of a symptom than a cause, but social media platforms pushing manosphere content isn't helping.
I wasn't paying attention for like 2 seconds and it went from "Men also have rights" to "Andrew Tate is a role model", like WTF internet, stop ruining good things, fuck.
Unfortunately, "Men's Rights" was a bait and switch. The Alpha/Sigma ideology says there can only ever be a handful of "True Men" worthy of human rights. Everyone else has to either prove themselves through combat or submit to being less than human.
Unfortunately it's not a bait and switch, there real issues in how we're failing boys and men are surely contributing to this concerning trend.
Especially when we blame the victims.
These "True Men" ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who've been left behind, like any cult leader would.
real issues in how weβre failing boys and men
Only the poor ones. You know, the "betas".
These βTrue Menβ ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men whoβve been left behind
They're driving the disparity. Artificially constricting the demand for labor in order to drive down wages. Privatizing public services to squeeze working people for their last dime. Bombarding audiences with FUD in order to get them to blame every conceivable external agent - illegal migrants, evil foreign governments, spies, terrorists, literal fucking space aliens - so that the public is in a constant state of anxiety and exhaustion. Busting unions. Busting street protests. Busting college campuses. Corrupting the foundations of the political system to shield themselves from accountability for their shady actions. Then dumping vast fortunes into policing and the military in order to unleash wave upon wave of violence on working class communities.
At the forefront of all of these moves are "Alpha" men. People who believe themselves entitled to enormous wealth and social privilege, extracting at the expense of the rest of us. Its only after we've been ravaged that we see the lackeys and sycophants of these self-entitled paymasters step back in to recruit for the next generation of gladiatorial fighters, street cops, and foreign mercenaries.
Alpha/Sigma ideology
I remember when that was just a category of porn writing π
But people need to make money. Internet will stop being ruined when it stops being monitized.
Shock value gets upvotes and downvotes.
There was a famous radical feminist from decades ago who argued all men should be killed. I donβt think she was relevant during twitter or in the recent internetβ¦ if she had been, idk π€·ββοΈ
I think the problem with some of these issues is that there are academic theories that are being discussed, which end up getting reduced by non academics and applied to specific individuals.
In the menβs rights forums it becomes men and boys are being left behind, this gets turned into pointing at a specific woman and blaming her.
Likewise in feminist ideology there is the idea of the patriarchy, this gets turned into some people pointing fingers at specific men and blaming them.
I recon its both, looks like the symptom makes the cause more potent makes the symptoms worse.
Andrew Tate blaming normal life issues on women and pushing teenagers to be very hateful against them is one big reason
If the issues young men had wherent real he wouldnt have the followers. We do account for 75% of suicides so Tate's diagnosis is correct just his treatment is wrong.
75% of suicide deaths. the number of attempts is about the same
"Dont send a women to do a mans job" - Andrew Tate
If you canβt kill yourself properly, just find a real alpha man to do the job correctly? You donβt know jack about suicide. Here let me mansplain that for ya
- puts down Tylenol, grabs gun
Edited for clarity since this is very dark humor: βIn other news tonight, the βsmiling womanβ was arrested today after apparently murdering her husband. She was contemplating suicide but made other choices. The video was live-streamed on tic tock. Coming at 6 tonight stay tuned to WTAF newsβ
Wait u thought i was being serious?
I hope not lol
He preys on vulnerable young men, yes, that's the point. There are healthier male role models online but I'm not sure youtube shares them widely.
Exactly. But i feel both sides simply see these young men as soldiers to be recruited to their army of ideology. Regardless their is definatly a crisis of purpose for all youths thats effecting men particularly badly.
This is such a wildly intelligent comment that I'm curious what the down voters think. Guessing either Tate fans or ignoramuses, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
I downvoted because the fact that issues exists doesn't justify the proposed "solutions". It's like saying that bloodletting has a point because patients really were sick, those things are not causally related.
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power. One part of my reasons is usually this is not the case, and some already talk about the same problems but are not heard. Another reason is that when a problem is widely spread and there is no one exploiting it or raising awareness, there exists a pressure to start doing just that. So even no one is better than Tate.
the fact that issues exists doesn't justify the proposed "solutions"
Ok but they never said it did. They just pointed out that saying "assholes like Andrew State are responsible" leaves out that there's a reason people go to him and thus is not the actual root problem
I think that even having no one talk about problems is better than having someone talk about problems to actively do harm and gain power
Wow, you're trash
Reason people go to Tate is not because issues exist, there's reason to people going to any liar or scammer and it's never the issue at hand, it's the illusion of a simple answer.
Have been discussing it with them and they are simply unwilling to give him any credit even if said credit is for highly successfull marketing of a wildly dangerouse religion like ideology to vulnerable youths.
How disgusting, people being unwilling to credit a rapist and sex trafficker.
Next thing we're going to do is what, not crediting Hitler?
Itβs βThe Wokeβ. Women are more visible in society as they are treated more equally, so certain (yes not all men) men see that as men losing rights and want to go back to βthe good old daysβ
If you created a similar graph mapping the ideology gap between races or straight and LGBTQIA+ theyβd look very similar.
Rapid increases in the productive forces of South Korea has resulted in a progressive population of women and a hyper-reactionary population of men, the increase in productive forces was so rapid it caused a hyper-sharpening of contradictions with tradition.
to the privileged, equality is oppression. And therefore more pushback to maintain the status quo
The answer is simple the media is radicalizing people and gender is one of their primary motivations it is hand tailored to divide and conquer minds.
I agree. Any divide they can make they will make. Its also convenient as it means they can use their culture war propaganda for double action to distract the masses.
Fascism is sociologically rooted in the sexual insecurity of men. That's why it's always men driving it.
Fascism is Capitalism in decline. Masculinity is a recognized part of fascism, but fascism is rooted in Capitalist decay, not in moral failures of men.
Fascism is capitalism when the capitalist class gets too successful, as soon as the capitalists realize they can establish fascism they always do.
Not quite. Fascism occurs when disparity rises, the petite bourgeoisie are being proletarianized, and collaborates with the bourgeoisie against rising class awareness and leftism among the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat. It isn't a symptom of success, but a defense mechanism.
Yet capitalism "failing" somehow consistently happens in every capitalist economy, at this point its basically a feature of capitalism.
Yes. Capitalism is unsustainable, and naturally trends towards disparity and Imperialism.
Yet what I find extremely intriguing is that the capitalist class profits immensely when capitalism decays and therefore actively contributes towards its downfall. Therefore in a sence fascism is when the capitalist class is too successful and when nobody pushes back against their decay and corruption.
People absolutely push back, which is why fascism happens. It's a defense mechanism against it.
I suggest reading the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds, it explains fascism and its origins.
Women live in the same declining capitalistic society as men, yet they are far more resistant to fascism. That's not to say there is something wrong with men or masculinity. Society puts different pressures on men and women so they react differently.
Masculinity by your argument is also rooted in the development of vaccines, all of the aspects of technological progress, and also all progressive social movements that have resulted in more equitable distribution of political power, ie voting rights act, giving women the vote, etc.
I mean, if history lessons in Italy taught me anything, the 'super uomo D'Annunziano', "D'annunzio" and the original italian 'fascism' are pretty much linked.
Do you have a reason to think this or did it just sound good in your head
There is a ton of academic interest in the relationship between sexuality and fascism. It was first noted in "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" by Wilhelm Reich after WW2. My comment is, of course, a massive oversimplification of a complex social dynamic.
It's the same dynamic that made US racists paranoid that black men wanted to rape white women when, in fact, their deeper fear was that white women wanted to have sex with black men. Fascists are particularly sensitive to sexual relations between "their women" and whomever they have chosen to blame for all their misfortunes.
So facism is mens fault? I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing? Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Such profound concern trolling wisdom from the wisest of all Star Wars characters!
Whoβs the alien theyβre pointing to?
Glup Shitto, who else?
spoiler
Real answer is some extra with a silly Star Wars name that I don't even know.
No, it's not "men's" fault, but the people who's fault it is are primarily men. That's not an opinion, that's just history, not to mention what's happening before our eyes. Even women who are fascist push patriarchy. There is no point in debating whether fascism is primarily a male driven phenomenon. The only legitimate question is why?
This is insulting as fuck. I grew up as a boy with plenty of reactionary beliefs because patriarchy is a fucking prison. And as I got older and got called out for it, you know what I didnβt do? Become a fucking fascist. I wasnβt pushed towards fascism. I was already reactionary and fascism would have required less work of me. Thatβs not the same thing. And it lets people off the hook to suggest otherwise.
Ok so ur smart enough not to be a fascist congratulations for achieving the bare minimum. Do u think most people are bright enough to go "ohhh yeah fascism is my fault because of the gender i was born i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions" or do they go "no fuck you and fuck everything you stand for"?
ohhh yeah fascism is my fault
I mean if the shoe fits
because of the gender i was born
it's this aggrieved "wah poor me for being born a man" shit that makes people disregard your bullshit in the first place. whatever happened to masculinity being defined by setting your jaw, gritting your teeth, and fixing your own fuckeries before they could adversely harm your surroundings?
i shall apologise for my genders ancestors actions
literally the bare fucking minimum a cracker could do and you phrase it like it's an impossible fucking pipe dream. and you wonder why people disregard and avoid bullshit peddlers like you.
christ, our species is cooked if you're an example of the kind of man the future has to look forward to
Did someone ask all men to apologize for something?
How is it insulting? I didn't say it was you. Fascism is a social phenomenon driven almost entirely by men. That doesn't mean all men are fascists, or that there is something wrong with masculinity. It's about certain men in certain situations reacting in what is an entirely predictable way. It is perhaps an insult to fascist men, but I'm comfortable insulting them.
I wasnβt insulted by what you said and Iβm not a man
Your misconstruing the statement. Fascism is a way for insecure men to feel powerful. These men are feeling insecure due to lack of job prospects, lack of honest to God to physical insecurity, and that also makes them less desirable to potential mates.
The way to protect against fascism is to ensure proper addressing of Maslowβs-goddamn-hierarchy of needs. Endstage, capitalism leads to fascism, but it has to secure itself in spreading racism and sexism.
I knew it as soon as I read your βTate is rightβ bullshit.
So facism is mens fault?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing?
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Itβs room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries
that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.this is kind of meaningless to point out, since men also had the power in every country that turned towards socialism, gave or took away rights, started and ended wars, etc.
I knew it as soon as I read your βTate is rightβ bullshit.
So men have no issues and the only reason men are listening to tate is cos they are hatfull evil bastards?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
Im so happy to learn that women didnt go along with fascism or support it in any way. If u knew anything about history u'd have heard of Magda Goebbels, Irma Grese, Eva Braun, Margaret Harker, Yukiko Sugishita etc.
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism? Having your gender (something where most people derive a majority of their identity) blamed for the entirety of facism and its hanouse actions isnt exactly fair or a good way to raise a child.
Itβs room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
This is bad faith child-like insults not a civilised discussion of ideas undertaken by real adults. I stand against fascists and i will not let you paint me as one.
There are definitely issues affecting men, the only men listening to Tate are weaklings looking to a perceived 'tough guy' for answers.
If u knew anything about history
I would also know they didn't get voted into positions of power, give speeches, command invasions or otherwise directly wield any power. Because they were living in patriarchal societies. Please think before you comment.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism?
As much as calling out fascists has to do with impacting the political views of non-fascists. There's an Explain Like I'm Five sub somewhere you could post this question to.
If you don't want to be insulted you should avoid entering conversations by parroting the views of rapists.
There are definitely issues affecting men, the only men listening to Tate are weaklings looking to a perceived 'tough guy' for answers.
Yes exactly, im simpky saying thwy wouldnt be listening if he hadnt resonated with their issues.
I would also know they didn't get voted into positions of power, give speeches, command invasions or otherwise directly wield any power. Because they were living in patriarchal societies. Please think before you comment.
If we go back to your original claim that facism is entirely mens fault and this claim that women had no power does this make these women innocent? Also by ur logic men did literally everything else including go to war to fight facsism. You implication here is that its not human history but mans history and if i where i women id find that pretty demeaning.
As much as calling out fascists has to do with impacting the political views of non-fascists. There's an Explain Like I'm Five sub somewhere you could post this question to.
If you don't want to be insulted you should avoid entering conversations by parroting the views of rapists.
Again attacking the person is not good faith discussion i refuse to engage in bad faith insults.
The only possible explanation for any of this is that men are bad and we should definitely not examine the underlying causes and material conditions at all.
Great idea im sure them killing themselves at record rates must be an anomoly.
Well, you can prove anything with facts.
Apparently you are, god speed you poor thing.
Im not afraid of downvotes or getting my feewings hurt.
Women's lib has been great for women but not so good for men. So men are becoming reactionary.
Bullshit. Most men suffer under toxic patriarchy as well. I absolutely love that this shit is finally getting pulled into the spotlight. I have not suffered a single iota of harm from anything "woke" and I would argue that no honest man has either.
Dishonest men still get to vote though
How do men suffer under patriarchy? Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives? Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people. I wonder what such a narrative would do to a young man trying to develop a sence of self, identity, and personal ideology?
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
This is so back asswards it is genuinely astounding.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
Yep. Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death without complaining to anyone. So our mental health is in the fucking toilet. If you're not working enough, you're not providing and you're not a real man. If you do work enough but show any emotion that's not a "manly" emotion (anything involving tears outside of a funeral or during Old Yeller or anything that's too excited) then you're not a real man.
I could write a whole dissertation on how young men get sucked into that whole toxic ideology due to the promises of being able to have a family and a house. And it's all a fucking lie.
Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death
My man... Your owner wants this and we LARPed that kool aid.
Got take some ownership IMHO
Also, got to ID the perp... Otherwise this entire discussion is a futile exercise.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Male suicide is getting worse every year the patriarchy is getting destroyed more every year, im simply pointing out the correlation is backward sof what u claim.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
The data correlates exactly the wrong way for this to be true.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Exactly but causation does not come without correlation. Causation is a subset of correlation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Economic disparity should be effecting the genders equally unless you are saying women are doing better financially.
Maybe do some research about statistical concepts before spouting what sounds good to you. Causation can absolutely 'come' without correlation.
You are a great example of someone not understanding that things are complex so you reach for tabloid explanations because they are comfortable and simple.
Maybe do some research about statistical concepts before spouting what sounds good to you. Causation can absolutely 'come' without correlation.
Name a counter example
You are a great example of someone not understanding that things are complex so you reach for tabloid explanations because they are comfortable and simple.
I refuse to engage in bad faith argument and school yard insults.
How do men suffer under patriarchy?
Queer and gender nonconforming men get an immense amount of abuse due to patriarchy. Even gender conforming straight boys and men do if they show sensitivity in any real capacity. The abuse of boys and young men for the sake of making them βman upβ is hardly an unusual in many areas.
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
What? This has nothing to do with the comment you replied to.
Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people.
No, this is a ridiculous conclusion you drew from someone saying patriarchy hurts everyone.
What the fuck?
Just because one side gets more rights, doesn't mean the other side loses rights.
I guess if the rights you miss is the ability to beat your wife without repercussions.