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Well, that is at least a start. Now could we agree to switch "Israel as a nation" with "The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement" please?
Israel "as a nation" has been doing this since its inception in 1948. It has never been anything besides an ultra-nationalist settler movement. I suspect you either greatly lack historical context or are arguing in bad faith tbh.
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The same could be said about many countries. Are you by any chance a US american?
This will not be the own you think it will
"if Palestinians deserve their land back, so do the Sioux, Cherokee, Seminole and all the other tribes"
"Yes"
The fact that somebody has a different opinion than you does not mean neither.
This is how complete fucking idiots who never leave their mind palace cope with being told they're wrong about something
It's also how fascists erase all content and context from a disagreement and try to whine about civility.
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Quit being a redditor, it's embarrassing.
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Now could we agree to switch “Israel as a nation” with “The right-extremist government of Israel, it´s military and the ultra-nationalist settler movement” please?
No we can't, fuck off. Israel is an apartheid state and Zionism is an European settler-colonial movement.
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You seem like the kind of person who runs defense for apartheid and genocide to avoid having to question your unwavering loyalty to the people who rule you, this was never a conversation worth having so I thank you for saving me the effort.
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@TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
translation
You seem to be the kind of person who prefers simple narratives and clearly divides the world into good and evil. Therefore no interest in a discussion, thank you and have a nice day.
Your curly avatar is so testing.
This text was translated using DeepL.
Oh, look, an AfD member.
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Antideutsche libs when will they learn
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Ah so an enlightened centrist then?
It's cute how you're staying safe in your mind palace and arguing about hypothetical settlers who don't support what's going on.
You know what your hypothetical virtuous perpetrators of a genocide can do if they actually feel that way? Fucking leave. They can fucking leave and go back where they came from and give back the homes they stole.
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This dumb motherfucker keeps using the word 'projecting' whenever someone calls them on imagining what Jewish Israelis think
Do you think they're smart enough to recognize the irony of that before it's explicitly spelled out to them? I say no. They're dumb as shit. Like most fascists.
Calling out antisemitic propaganda when I see it does neither equal taking sides in the conflict nor does it equal supporting illegal settlements of racist neo-nazi expansionist assholes who murder Palestinian olive farmers.
Fucking idiot here thinks the west bank is the first time Zionists did an ethnic cleansing
You should really stop projecting so much, communication becomes impossible like this.
Fucking good. Shut the fuck up.
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Chew shit from my ass zionist
Oh, and you are? You're in here pulling a "not all men" about criticism of Israel.
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I... no, honey, I wasn't actually talking about men there, I was talking about how you're deflecting criticism of Israel by equating it to criticism of individual israeli's, by connecting your comment to the MRA movement's constant cries of "not all men" when feminists say things like "1 in 4 women have been sexually assualted". It's not an incorrect statement in itself, but it isn't any more relevent or helpful than me saying I wasn't involved in the 1943 Bengal Famine, so it's not fair to say Britain killed millions of Indians.
Shut the fuck up, you're defending settlers- apartheid governments, genocidal ethnostates, and their defenders deserve scorn.
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Conflating Israel's actions with Judaism as a whole is extremely antisemitic in its own right.
Israel's regime does casually murder children on a regular basis, it is not antisemitic to say that.
If you're suggesting ignoring the fact, just because "Neo-nazis might like it", I can't stand with you.
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From my antifascist perspective, an Apartheid state killing children is what is truly absolutely unacceptable. If diverse sectors of that society are not OK with war, Apartheid and murdering civilians, it's on them to mobilize to stop that, not on the rest of the world to refrain from criticism just because the human rights violations their state actually commits are similar to delusional bigoted tropes about their religion. Also, criticizing the actions of a State, even a religious one, is not hate speech.
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America deserved 9/11
America both caused and deserved 9/11
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Israel is not Judaism and it's not an ethnic group by your own admission. The idea that the Jewish people employ dark magic rituals that murder and consume children is antisemitic. The idea that the police and military of Israel, with the public at broad's supports, kills children in the interest of national security is not.
We can distinguish between the two. You don't seem to separate them, which is antisemitic.
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You just claimed that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder, at the same time you are perfectly aware that this majority is Jewish, now who is being antisemitic?
They did not claim that the majority of Israeli citizens supports child murder because they are Jewish.
Stop making shit up.
Piles and piles of children with photographic evidence and multiple parties saying it happened: blood libel
40 babies being beheaded according to hearsay from 1 IOF soldier with no one able to verify the existence of the alleged video: totally real and not blood libel; we must exterminate these savages!
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the ultra-nationalist settler movement
they're all settlers
Not only is solidarity with Palestinian frowned upon, the US' only Palestinian lawmaker was censured and publicly shamed for advocating for Palestine.
Luckily, the US is the only country not calling it genocide or war crimes.
Unluckily, really solidifies that we're gonna be the baddies in WW3.
Blood Libel refers to the belief that Judaism incorporates the murder and consumption of (mainly) Christian children. Conflating this idea with what this meme is clearly referring to (what happening in Palestine) reinforces the Zionist propaganda that Zionism (and therefore the actual ethnic cleansing that Zionists are currently doing) is intrinsic to Judaism and should be immune from criticism on religious grounds.
But I suspect you are aware of that and are here in bad faith, so in short: no u
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Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
You don't get to call other people neo-nazis when you're the one defending a genocidal ethnostate.
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People can see what your original comment was in the modlog, idiot. lmao
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shut the fuck up, genocidal terrorist supporter
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Eat shit and die, fascist.
"I support and give cover to Israel on internet"
"please behave uwu"
"no reason to get offensive"
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Israel murdered more children in 30 days than the supposedly genocidal Russian army has in Ukraine,a much larger population base, in 560 days.
Equating Israel with Judaism is antisemitic.
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That isn't whataboutism, you fucking imbecilic moron.
I know that your water brained trolling is about trying to appear respectable as you justify murder, but the liquid shit vomiting from your mouth is too fragrant to cover up with definitional arguments.
You just don't have a response.
Yes, Israel is a country founded by jews, for jews. That doesn't mean they get to be an ethnostate.
That implies violence against all non-jews that currently live there. That violence has already been demonstrated against the non-jews that were already there, the Palestinians, who have been pushed to the fringes of society and into the open-air prison that is the gaza strip. The flames of antisemitism simply cannot be fought with more flames of islamophobia. All people deserve the same rights and protections regardless of race or religion. That should be what Israel stands for, not "ethnic cleansing but it's okay this time because the historically persecuted people deserve to have their turn at creating an ethnostate".
Like, we understand why the Nazis were bad beyond the fact that Jewish people were their main target, do we not? Because that's how guys like Trump get into power with extreme anti-migrant rhetoric and an anti-democratic party behind them. Fascists can't sell their ideology on anti-semitism anymore; it backfires, in the same way Lee Atwater pointed out it does for the N word; so they sell it on xenophobia or islamophobia or whichever public enemy (out-group) they can create, and then further shrink their in-group when they gain enough power and/or disenfranchise enough people to do so without much recourse.
Fascism won't always be as obvious taking up the old flags of Nazis past; and as such it is incredibly harmful to reduce them to any single hallmark, such as the particular vendetta against Judaism that took place in WW2 (not to mention that those particular Nazis prefer there to be a Jewish ethnostate so they have somewhere to expel jews in pursuit of their own ethostates); it will take influence from and adapt to the blind spots of the culture where it spawns from.
Israel is in fact a diverse society
Yes the "Jewish state" is a diverse society. Where the the first class citizens are all "good jews" recognized by the state. Any lesser Jews or god forbid Arab peoples are second class citizens.
From an antifascist perspective this meme is absolutely unacceptable
Imagine being this fragile of a person. Log off now lmao.
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I condemn the racist politics of the right-extremist government of Israel and the social segregation and severe injustice it causes. What is your point?
Israel is an apartheid state, this isn't new, this isn't something that the current government did, this is the establishing principle of the state that has been held up since the start, calling an apartheid state "diverse" like you did in your first post is absolutely incorrect and is not close to the reality of the situation in any way shape or form, it's pure propaganda
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist, simply because otherwise the Jews will not survive capitalism.
having suffered in the past does not give a group of people free reign to commit those same acts against a separate unaffiliated population, having an ethnostate in the first place is not a good goal, but even if we said it was necessary, doing it through the ethnic cleansing and genocide of another group is not at all justifiable in any way.
treating things as if jews are simply different from regular people and could never survive as a minority in another country so they should not be judged by the same standard we apply to everyone is in itself an anti-semitic view to have, jews are regular people, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad, whoever does it and however noble their goal is doesn't change that fact.
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Democracies that require the demographic majority remain the demographic majority aren't democracies.
Neither are apartheid States.
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You don't have arguments, you have the trolling equivalent of scruffy lip hair a 15 year old boy will try to call a mustache.
You're arguing in defense of the slaughter of 5000 children. If you organize them by age, you had to go six pages in before you hit an age greater then zero. And that was a week ago.
You're sealioning over the corpses of children and trying to 'I'm just trying to have a mature discussion'.
There is nothing mature about what you are doing.
It's disgusting and you are fucking disgusting.
I of course know and absolutely condemn that, again what is your point?
You do not know what these words mean and you do not truly condemn them, that's clear by the arguments you make
Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question
"Without question" since when are you a middle east expert? How many years did it take to get your doctorate degree on the subject?
Israel is not diverse, an apartheid state cannot be applauded for having the second class citizens be of a different race, by your logic south Africa during apartheid was the most diverse country in the southern African region
and it is also also the only democracy
Do you know what an apartheid state is? Could you give me that definition, and then give me the definition of a democracy, and try to weasel your way out of the contradiction that an apartheid state can't be a democracy
Other countries in the region are monarchies or (often military) dictatorships.
The UK is a monarchy, but I bet you think it's democratic to some degree, are you aware that a lot of the monarchies in the region employ a similar parliamentary system?
Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it's law
You can blame CIA funding the religious extremist reactionaries (and also the british bringing in the criminalization of lgbtq people during their colonial rule over the region) for the oppressive laws that exist in the region, but despite that it's not as bad in certain countries that are more progressive, a lot of the middle eastern countries are on the level of Serbia/other reactionary Balkan countries in terms of lgbtq stuff
Israel is not really better for lgbtq people, especially Palestinian citizens of Israel that belong to that group, they are very heavily oppressed and regularly harassed and even get blackmailed by the IDF due to their identities
You show that you don't know anything about the region, just repeat the propaganda and pink washing that you've been fed.
while in all other countries in the region women are being oppressed second class citizens
it's very funny that you think this, in a lot of the countries in the region (notable exceptions being US allies like Saudi Arabia) women have the same rights and protections under the law, this has been the case for many many years in most of these countries, women's rights are lagging behind the west sure, but it's nowhere near as bad as you have been told, especially in more recent years
Agreed but sadly, when we look at history, it seems to happen quite often, no matter if we like it or not.
"Agreed but" no buts, this is not a justifiable action, the fact that it happened in the past doesn't justify current day actionsththe fact that the US and Britain committed genocide doesn't mean we should just give up on fucking stopping genocide, "no matter if we like it or not" we have reached an agreement that we don't like it, a global consensus that it is bad (other than the US and other western countries that support Israel, they love genocide), so we should stop people from committing genocide, if Russia starts to commit an actual genocide in Ukraine like Israel is doing in Gaza, then you'll no doubt agree that the world should sanction them, etc, in order to stop them, you just don't think Palestinians are people like Ukrainians are.
I fully agree with that statement. However this does not justify generalizing all Israeli citizens as child murderers.
During Hitlers rule of Nazi Germany, a very large number of Germans picked up arms and fought against their government, and were killed for it, mainly communists and leftists
But a lot Germans lived happily under and supported the actions of their government
Would you say those Germans that never lifted a finger to oppose the genocide and ethnic cleansing of jews were responsible for what happened? I'd say yes, they did not protest, did not resist, especially the ones that served in the army
Are you aware that the majority of Israeli citizens are reservists that will pick up arms to serve in the IDF if given the order? Are you aware that the IDF has a higher than 80% approval rating among Israelis? How are these people not complicit?
I fully agree with you that jews are just people like everyone else but we should also consider the regular antisemitic pogroms that happened throughout history, which are an obvious motivation for a community to get their own safe space in the world.
We should indeed consider those pogroms, every antisemite in Europe should be killed for their crimes, rather than what happened (governments with the help of NATO suppressing communists and leftists and promoting nationalistic (usually antisemitic) groups)
Also, all you've done with this argument is establish that "Jews should get an ethnostate" (I still disagree but I'll humor you for a second), you did not establish that a noble cause justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, therefore the actions of Israel are no more acceptable than the actions of british settlers committing genocide against native Americans
Absolutely agree. Please keep in mind that I in fact never apologized any of the crimes of the IDF or the illegal settlers.
You did, continuously bringing up that zionists have a (in your view) noble cause is an attempt at the justification of ethnic cleansing and genocide
All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers.
They are complicit in the child murder.
Sadly it seems like most people's opinions are simply too polarized to get such nuances at this point.
You're a liberal.
Nope, Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question
South Africa is diverse and was so during apartheid. This doesn't make it any less of an illegitimate apartheid state. In fact it makes it worse.
The zionist entity actively rejects that diversity by declaring itself an exclusively Jewish state. Palestinians can live there under various degrees of apartheid but they will never be considered equal to the Jewish population.
it is also also the only democracy in the region.
The zionist entity occupies the entirety of Palestine as well as parts of Syria. On that territory lives more than seven million Palestinians. Two million of those are considered citizens of the zionist entity and although they are systematically discriminated against and harassed they are allowed to vote.
In addition to the seven million Palestinians living in Palestine, more than three million Palestinian refugees lives outside of Palestine and are being denied their right to return to their homeland by the zionist entity.
Of the zionist entity's population seven million are Jews.
Why all of these demographics? Well, of a population of seventeen million, Jews make up a minority. However while all seven million Jews are allowed to vote in the zionist entity's elections, only two million Palestinians are allowed to.
As a result result of having elections only for the elite ethnic minority, politics of the zionist entity has moved to be dominated by far right Jewish supremacists.
How democratic is that? How democratic is a state that explicitly and unapologetically declared itself to be a state for a minority of the population?
Palestinians enjoys very limited political freedoms and are severely hindered in their abilities to express themselves. They can get convicted by zionist courts for the crime of posting on social media that somebody has been murdered by the occupation forces. Even passively consuming "terrorist" media can land you in jail.
Calling the zionist entity democratic is to make a mockery of the concept of democracy. But even if you believe it to be democratic, how does that justify settler-colonialism and apartheid?
On top of that, Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it's law
The zionist entity is pretty unique in the world by still having miscegenation laws. A Jew and a Muslim cannot legally get married in the zionist entity. All family law is governed by theocratic and unelected conservative religious institutions, creating separate legal systems for each religious demographic, no matter whether the individuals getting married shares these strict religious beliefs or not. As a consequence, there is no such thing as civil marriage in the zionist entity either and certainly not anything like gay marriage.
All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers
The zionist entity is a casual child murdering entity. Zionism is an ideology enabling casual child murdering. The evidence for their evil is overwhelming. But for the people of the zionist entity you can't really generalise any more than you can with any other population of millions of people. Each of them have the same potential to be good morally upright human beings as anyone else. With that being said, election results and polls suggests that a large portion of that population of the zionist entity subscribes to deeply racist Jewish supremacist ideas. This doesn't mean that they all share these views or that those who do cannot be deradicalised or that these beliefs are essential to Judaism rather than being offshoots of western imperialism.
Opposing apartheid systems is not racist. Opposing apartheid ideologies is not racist, even if those beliefs are prevalent among a certain ethnic group.
There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist
the vast majority of jewish people in eastern europe post-war didn't migrate to either the autonomous oblast the USSR set up or Israel and chose instead to live in the eastern bloc or USSR proper, so they probably count as 'a lot of antifascists' that don't see a reason for Israel's existence
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Hey look a genocide denier
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Dying on the hill that ANY criticism of the actions taken by Israel: The State is inherently anti-semitic full stop is an intentionally false argument used to excuse the actions of said state - usually by other fascists who wish to emulate their tiered citizenship/civil rights system for Palestinians where they live for whichever group they don't like.
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Oh, so it's just a few of you doing all the child murders to palestinians. got it
you thought that we believed All jews were going out and killing.
Well in that case. America hasn't done anything wrong to any nation, because the vast number of Americans didn't participate in those wars. So it's not America's fault it's the individuals who went to those wars.
that's what you're selling? It's only like 1 or 2 jews doing all the killing. am i wrong?
Im sorry when i said killing i meant, 'liberating palestine of hamas'
Zion! lets Goooo!
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there it is.
Israel is murdering Palestinians, women and children too.
"that's antisemitic propaganda"
so the truth is what? what are the israelis shooting at? cuz hamas cant be everyone and everything. children are dying and here you and i are jerking each other off on the internet about moral compasses. cool cool.
"We HAVE to wipe out every refugee camp because every single Palestinian keeps a Hamas commander in their back pocket at all times"
-Israel, completely unironically.
Pocket aces but hamas
It's exactly what you're doing. I explicitly said "Israel: The State" and you're STILL arguing that I'm being antisemitic.
GTFOH with that shit and go defend genocide somewhere else ya dingus.
Thought this was a bit until I saw the name lmao
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Conflating Judaism and Zionism is antisemitism.
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Zionism originated from Christianity, has nothing to do with Judaism
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A lot of Judaism is flat out incompatible with Zionism
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The Nazis were huge supporters of Zionism
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Palestinians are semites too
You are falling for fascist propaganda.
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Aha got it. Into the woodchipper you go.
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shut up when people these days cry boohoo antisemitism about Israel's actions i give no fucks
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Nothing you've said has been more worthwhile than a fart in an elevator.
Maturity is wasted on contrarian sea lions, and they don't even deserve the attempt.
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All spaces are better off without bad faith sea lions.
Especially the incompetent hasbara type.
Seriously, I hope you get paid less than minimum wage, because you weren't worth even that.
So you condemn the IDF and their terrorist campaign against innocent civilians?
