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If Biden loses, that's his and the DNC's loss. It's up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It's not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it's too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss.
Oh, and also the loss of all of the rest of us who will suffer under another Trump administration.
But fuck the poor, minorities, LGBT folk. We have to show the DNC how principled we are by making sure a fascist is elected!
It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want.
It's up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That's the point of citizenship. Voting isn't a fucking popularity contest, it's a civic duty.
Bullshit. The OP literally said they’ll vote for Biden because their principles demand it. They’re saying that if Biden fails it is because he couldn’t bring the votes of others. Your arguments are straw man horse shit.
Bullshit. The OP literally said they’ll vote for Biden because their principles demand it.
How the fuck does that at all address the point I was making?
If Biden loses, that's the loss of just about everyone who isn't a right-wing straight cis white male Christian. It's not "Oh, it's just the big meanies in the DNC :( who will lose because I think purity tests in the name of losing to fascists are just a Legitimate Choice(tm)". It's. Us.
Lmao Bidens administration has expanded trumps border cages, continued “building the wall”, contributed billions of dollars in planes, bombs and guns to Israel that he knew explicitly were being used to bomb children(and states that they don’t believe that they are going too far), defunded UNRWA, tried to pass a “ceasefire” that would permanently defund all Palestinian organizations if those organizations supported ICC proceedings against Israel, demonized undocumented workers on live tv, made record expansions to police budgets, took away rail workers right to strike permanently, done nothing to ensure LGBT or minority rights, or women’s rights for that matter, left DeJoy in after he purposefully gutted the USPS, expanded the trade war and maintained trump era blockades on socialist countries (including restricting humanitarian aid from going to Cuba and refusing to remove them from the state sponsors of terror list…) the list literally goes on as long as I feel like typing and then some.,
He’s done some good, too. expanding the powers of the NLRB was a good step, capping insulin prices for Medicare recipients, allowed negotiations on drug prices for Medicare, funded the biggest climate package in US history (less than 10% of what China puts towards climate mitigation each year of course), put considerable money towards public transit and rail expansion, this list will go on for a while too if I wanted to keep typing, but to say that hes done much for minorities, the poor, or LGBT persons is just ridiculous.
He is, as he said during his previous campaign, trying to continue the status quo. He’s not trying to massively shake things up nor to make them better. He thinks things are working pretty well as it is. He keeps touting this economy as if most workers aren’t still struggling to pay their bills, as if most americans still don’t have more than $500 in the bank, as if education isn’t collapsing under the austerity measures previous administrations have instituted.
Our choice is maintenance of the status quo or further descent into fascism. And yes, this country in many ways is a fascist nation.
Blaming people for having consciences is not doing anything to convince anyone to vote for him, it just further alienates those most vulnerable among the citizenry who see that their lives have in no way meaningfully improved over the last 4 years.
It’s up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That’s the point of citizenship. Voting isn’t a fucking popularity contest, it’s a civic duty.
Exactly. So don't put the blame on the voters if the DNC can't put up a candidate the voters actually want to vote for. It's the voters job to pick who they want to vote for, it's not the voters job to vote for whomever the DNC tells them to vote for. You have the burden of responsibility backward.
So don’t put the blame on the voters if the DNC can’t put up a candidate the voters actually want to vote for. It’s the voters job to pick who they want to vote for, it’s not the voters job to vote for whomever the DNC tells them to vote for. You have the burden of responsibility backward.
So let me get this straight: it's the DNC's responsibility to make sure that the winner of the primary DOESN'T get the nomination, because the voters don't want him, despite having voted for him?
Believe it or not, most people aren't interested in another candidate. "Generic Democrat Who I Can Project All My Views On" outperforms Biden, but no one who is actually running does.
DNC actively subverted the primary process this year, so no, the results of this election are 100% on Biden (and his unappealing candidacy).
Yeah, remember when NH made sure Biden was the only guy on the ballot, and he still lost?
No, actually I remember Biden fumbling right out of the gate by not even doing the minimum to register in NH.
I also remember his admin working with the DNC to contact state committees asking them to cancel primaries outright, which several did. Very cool, very democratic.
For that matter, Biden also seemed content to nap in his bunker instead of engage with other primary candidates to promote his ideas. He seems to be leaning quite heavily on the strategy of “not trump” will be enough for him. Pretty irrespinsible if you ask me, considering his claims of democracy being on the line. Why can’t Biden make his case?
So let me get this straight: it’s the DNC’s responsibility to make sure that the winner of the primary DOESN’T get the nomination, because the voters don’t want him, despite having voted for him?
It's the DNC's responsibility to put pressure on the candidate that wasn't sure if they were going to run to not run because the polls showed him getting beat. It's also their responsibility to not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate like making South Carolina (the place where Biden's luck in 2019 changed) the first official primary.
but no one who is actually running does.
And that is also the DNC's problem. They didn't put forth a viable candidate in the primaries despite all the polling suggesting they should.
It’s the DNS’s responsibility to put pressure on the candidate that wasn’t sure if they were going to run to not run because the polls showed him getting beat.
So now it is the DNC's responsibility to put pressure on the scales to change the candidate....
It’s also their responsibility to not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate like making South Carolina (the place where Biden’s luck in 2019 changed) the first official primary.
... except when it's not? Very coherent, 10/10 worldview.
And that is also the DNC’s problem. They didn’t put forth a viable candidate in the primaries despite all the polling suggesting they should.
"They didn't put forth"
Tell me you don't understand primaries without telling me you don't understand primaries. Not to mention that explicitly contradicts your previous point about not wanting the DNC to pick the candidates. Jesus fucking Christ. We're done here.
Here let me point out the parts you seemed to have missed:
not run because the polls showed him getting beat.
not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate
despite all the polling suggesting they should
The polls showed they shouldn't favor the candidate they did. They chose against what was obvious instead of encouraging others to run they picked their favored candidate before it even started.
“They didn’t put forth”
You're right, the wording there isn't correct. It should be that they didn't encourage others to run.
We’re done here.
Unfortunately it appears the voters are thinking the same thing. That's why it's the party's responsibility field the best candidate.
Jesus fucking Christ. We're done here.
Yeah, that's what I would expect from someone who expects voters to toe the line for the party instead of blaming the party for a bad candidate. Do as you say or be ignored right?
If the voters are too stupid to vote against Trump by voting for Biden, that is on them.
Biden hasn't done anything to screw over US citizens. Yes, he continues some shitty foreign policies by supporting Israel and hasn't achieved as much as he wanted because of GOP obstruction, but he has done some positive stuff.
Trump never did anything positive at all, and tried to overthrow the government.
Real tough choice there!
But maybe if fascism wins this time, we'll magically get a left-wing government afterwards? It's like a pendulum!
"First Hitler then Our Turn"
Biden hasn’t done anything to screw over US citizens.
you're either young or misinformed: google up "don't ask, don't tell"; "defense of marriage act" or "anita hill" for his biggest blunders that have directly screwed over many americans.
Sorry that I didn't make it clear I was speaking about his time as president, since he is running for reelection as president. Your point that nobody can ever be forgiven for doing things wrong in the past is absolutely the best logical action.
Why vote for someone who had done the right things for the past couple decades just because their opponent tried to overthrow the government?
By your logic we should forgive trump too because his crimes were also in the past and he has made greater public spectacle to make up for his past than Biden has attempted for fear of pissing off aipac.
But forgive me; his desire to run despite poll after poll showing that's he's likeability is behind trump but still refusing to to step aside because his own desire to be president is more important to him than letting the Democrats run on a better candidate is somehow ok in your book
That isn't my logic. That is you making a strawman.
dismissing very real damage done to many americans by these actions simply because it was done in the past is strawman-esque and i responded in kind.
That isn't what strawman means.
they made a good point, you just don't like it
Dumb actions that were in line with the majority of other politicians decades ago is not a comparable 'in the past' to trying to over overthrow the country three years ago and continuing to try to overthrow the country.
It was a stupid point and you are stupid for calling is a good one.
The morality of an action doesn't change because of the number of people that agree with you. doing bad things is bad. people who do bad things and continue to do bad things and plan to do bad things are bad people. I don't vote for bad people.
If the voters are too stupid to vote against Trump by voting for Biden, that is on them.
Nope. That's on the candidate.
Real tough choice there!
I mean, I agree with you. It's an obvious choice and I can't put my mind in the headspace of anyone that can vote for Trump at this point. Usually I can at least understand the opposition's point of view. I will definitely be voting for Biden... However, that doesn't change the fact that it is up to the party and the candidate to earn the votes, it's not up to the voters to cover for the party.
Biden appeals to most of the Democratic voters, which is why he is their candidate and why he won in 2020.
Unaffiliated voters expecting him to appeal to them specifically is on those voters, not the Dems.
It’s like people didn’t notice how the GOP shrank down to core fanatics and dems won by expanding the tent in their own party.
Now these people think the same level of ideological compromise that should define congress apparently has no place in their own party.
NEWSFLASH: if you refuse to participate unless your ideological purity test is met, you should prob go join the tea party.
Get over it and grow up. A capable, national political party will clearly include people other than you, viewpoints other than yours, and you won’t always get what you want.
Work with people instead of working selfishly against everyone not 100% aligned with your own mental utopia. Your purity test is not a reason to flip the table.
Unaffiliated voters expecting him to appeal to them specifically is on those voters, not the Dems.
Except if the Democrats want to win.
So don't appeal to the Dem party voters, appeal to other people who have an extremely wide variety of expectations that apparently don't align with the Dems.
Sound logic!
If you want to win, you have to appeal to the majority of voters. That's how voting works... You can do that by energizing the base to overcome the middle or by appealing to the middle. If you pick a candidate that can't do either, don't expect to win.
Nope. That’s on the candidate.
Anything but citizens accepting responsibility for their actions in a democracy. ANYTHING but that!
There is nothing saying a voter has to vote or that a candidate has to run. We both voluntarily take part in this transaction and it's up to the candidate to earn the votes of the voters.
There is nothing saying a voter has to vote
No, there isn't.
But a voter not voting is still making a choice, and they are responsible for that choice.
The candidates aren't lords, and we aren't peasants. In a republic, CITIZENS are responsible for who they vote OR DON'T VOTE for.
There's no choice you can make where you lack responsibility. Whatever happens - it is our fault as citizens. If you can answer to your conscience in the case of a Trump presidency... well, gods help you, because I can't.
Yes, it was the voters choice to say that neither of the candidates appealed to them. It's not the voters fault if a candidate loses, it's the candidates fault for not appealing to the voters. It's really not a complicated concept, but you're still getting it backward.
If a company goes out of business is it the fault of the consumer, or of the company for not offering products the consumer wants?
Do the customers know that going out of business means it will be replaced with a new fascist business which will absolutely destroy the town?
If so, that is on the customers for letting perfection be the enemy of good.
Yes, it was the voters choice to say that neither of the candidates appealed to them.
In which case that voter is responsible for whichever one that won.
Refusing to act just means that you have endorsed the end result.
It’s not the voters fault if a candidate loses, it’s the candidates fault for not appealing to the voters.
It's the voters fault that whoever wins, wins. You don't get to cross your arms and get all huffy and say "Well, I wasn't going to vote for GENOCIDE JOE, but I don't like that Trump won! This is unfair!"
Your. Vote. Matters.
Citizens. Have. Responsibility.
If a company goes out of business is it the fault of the consumer, or of the company for not offering products the consumer wants?
I can't believe I have to say this in the context of a left-leaning discussion, but companies are not democratic societies.
I’ll be doing my civic duty by not voting. Voting is supposed to be about picking the candidate I want. Well, I don’t want either of these two candidates, and I won’t stand for the DNC rubbing its greedy little fingers together in the background, making deals and concessions with whomever they have to in order to push their candidate of choice.
Biden has done some good things. Honestly more than I expected. This does not now, nor has it ever, and nor will it ever give the DNC carte blanche to manipulate the primaries from the shadows to choose their preferred candidate to represent the party in a wide-open field of two people once every four years.
You want someone to blame for the fact that you’re all sweating bullets about how this election turns out? Look to the DNC when you want to point fingers, not the people who they’re trying to sucker into voting for the damage control option every four years.
"Please don't blame me for standing by as fascists ascend to power, I don't want to take responsibility for my actions"
Voting is supposed to be about picking the candidate I want.
Voting is about using your power as a citizen to improve the country. Civic duty - not a popularity contest.
Voting is about using your power as a citizen to improve the country
Then don't fucking complain when people do it.
Then don’t fucking complain when people do it.
Putting fascists in power is improving the country? Wow. This is some brave new form of leftism, I guess, that I'm just too right-wing to understand.
Making white liberals uncomfortable enough to bring them to the table to negotiate by threatening not to cast a ballot for them is certainly improving things.
Fucking lmao.
You can laugh -god knows we all need something to laugh at- but look at how fucking irate y'all get about it.
“Please don’t blame me for standing by as fascists ascend to power, I don’t want to take responsibility for my actions”
He's not the one standing by. It's the DNC that chose the only candidate that could lose to Trump because they feel he is entitled to it. Just like they chose Hillary in 2016 because it was "her time." These are losses brought on by themselves that affects everyone. Don't be mad at the voters, be mad at the party that is struggling to beat an insurrectionist with multiple ongoing criminal court cases.
Just like they chose Hillary in 2016 because it was “her time.”
... do you not remember that Hillary was elected in the primary?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Signed, a 2016 and 2020 Bernie voter.
Yes, I remember the super delegates that they got rid of because they were used to tip the scales and the DNC giving Hillary the debate questions before the debates so she could be extra prepared.
Also a 2016 and 2020 Bernie voter and donor.
Yes, I remember the super delegates that they got rid of because they were used to tip the scales
Clearly you don't remember, since Hillary won the greater number of elected delegates, and the 'Super Delegates' only ended up relevant as a Hail Mary pass for the Bernie campaign.
Clearly you don’t remember, since Hillary won the greater number of elected delegates, and the ‘Super Delegates’ only ended up relevant as a Hail Mary pass for the Bernie campaign.
You're the one not remembering... The super delegates were all called extremely early in the race for Hilary in an attempt to make it look like Bernie was so far behind he could never catch up.
And he didn't.
You're ready to hand over the USA to christofascists because Bernie was a worse campaigner than Hillary. That's pathetic, you sore loser.
I say this as someone who donated over $1000 to Bernie in 2016.
I say this as someone who donated over $1000 to Bernie in 2016.
Thank you for covering my poor 25$ donating ass in 2016 o7
You’re ready to hand over the USA to christofascists
I have never once said that. I have said the opposite several times.
Isn’t it weird to you that not even Bernie says or thinks this?
That Bernie continues to work with the very folks you refuse to vote for? Almost like it’s not an issue to the very person it should be…
Almost like you’ve got it wrong and even Bernie has moved on to do more for your political views by collaborating WITH the very dems you refuse to support.
Bernie and people like him are accomplishing more for your political goals by working WITH the DNC. Accomplishing more than you will ever accomplish with your sanctimonious BS pretending like the DNC made you a victim.
You need a lesson. The DNC conspired against Bernie Sanders the moment it was clear he was a threat to Hillary and did it so goddamned hard that there was a lawsuit about it.
A lawsuit that ended with the defense: “The DNC is a private entity so we’re allowed to do whatever we want.”
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/
Please explain why they deserve to continue existing.
I don't think you replied to the right person. I would argue against any of this. In fact I brought up points that support what you're saying here.
Voting is a chess move, not a love letter, although I doubt you're actually a US citizen.
I certainly hope you aren't a minority that will lose their citizenship & be exiled under Trump's Project 2025.
I’m not the Chess Master. I’m a pawn. I’m sacrificed and threatened and told if I don’t do what I need to all the time always then the other side wins.
So I’m not going to move the way I’m told until I get something I want.
I’m a minority setting myself on fire every election. This time I’m inclined to have others burn with me.
Spoken like someone from a place of privilege. Congrats.
Every election is “the worst election ever where we need everyone to come together and support our hand-picked candidate against their hand-picked candidate”. When do you get to vote your conscience?
When do I vote in a manner representative of who I am as a minority?
When will the ship not be sinking so I can choose someone who actually represents me?
Why is it my responsibility to vote for you when you don’t care about me?
“I know we didn’t do anything for you again these past 4 years, but if you don’t get behind us then it’s going to be bad!”
It already is bad. If you don’t realize that you sound like the privileged one.
Sometimes you have to think about other people and not just yourself.
Marginalized people get extra fucked by "allowing" the even worse candidate to win.
“When do I get to think about me when I vote?”
“Stop thinking about just yourself and think about other people.”
Are you even paying attention to the conversation or am I trying to reason with a recording? Is it any wonder why I don’t feel heard time and time again to the point where I don’t want to do what I’m told?
It’s zero sympathy. I have a duty to get shafted by the political system again for the promise that someday, somehow, something will work out for me.
No thanks, friend.
Then suffer even more I guess and by extension others...
You are a microcosm representing exactly how the Democratic party is treating me. No interest in asking what I want. No drive to sympathize. Just demand, demand, demand. The liberals in here are so beautifully reflected in you, demonstrating the same lack of motivation to engage beyond name-calling, coercion and, in some cases, internet tough-guy posturing.
So a couple of things. I'm not a Liberal, not even close. Secondly I'm also not American so I'm not looking at this through the narrow lens of your conservative government. Thirdly, when did I name call, coerce or Internet tough-guy posture?
You will reap what you sow I guess. The rest of the world thanks you for Trump again.
Permanently Deleted
So you want them to vote for someone they don't like just because it's who the party picked? That's what privilege looks like.
it sounds like we're in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i'm wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
also: i'd like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
That's what I've been talking about in this thread. It's up to the party to look inward and realize why they failed and field a better candidate. If they want to point to the finger else where they're just going to pick more losing candidates.
i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
It's a cop out. You vote for things. If you vote for say a third party then it's exactly that, you voted for a third party you didn't vote for Trump. It's up to the party to win your votes.