Temporarily embarrassed millionaires

the irony is that we wouldn’t need to sacrifice much (if at all) for those benefits – in other words, you could be completely selfish and still have a better life

US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person (city of Helsinki saved the country of Finland €15000 per person per year just by buying them a house)
healthcare for all (and better quality) would cost us about 2/3 what we’re paying now
we produce (and have) plenty of food for everyone but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit (John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath)
better public transit means more convenience for everyone with the added benefits of better air quality, nicer neighborhoods, less wear-and-tear on infrastructure, cheaper commuting – !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml

but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit

Not just companies, I feel obliged to point out. The rot goes much deeper - independent farmers did the same at the time. The sickness is in society itself.

Nowadays we just pay farmers not to farm.
- Just pointing out that independent farmers throw out food that is unprofitable to sell. It's not like they're greedy or something. When there's a lot of food transportation costs mean you can lose money sending your food to market.
  
  In that case no people are starving because food prices are very low. The problem in the Great Depression was that the conservative government didn't want to intervene in the market and buy up the cheap food, so people did starve. This is part of the reason why conservatives lost power for twenty years.
On the Finnish homelesness part: you're spouting misinfo, knowingly or unknowingly. Our system doesnt buy houses or apartments to anyone.

Every homeless person though IS offered a flat in a socially subsidized, very cheap price as part of a social program and/or place in a substance abuse coliving program-type of thing (not sure on the spesifics of those).

Its weird how there's so much misinformation about Finland in Lemmy these days, like were some magical egelitarian happy-land. No, we just pay our taxes and have built up a social security net, though thats actively being dismantled by our right wing government these days.

Source of all of this: I am a finn.
- 🇨🇦: "first time?"
Yes, everyone having a better quality of life would elevate everyone who isn't wealthy enough to isolate into a fenced off estate and has servants to do all their domestic tasks.
US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person

This pisses me off so much. There should be an extra tax for unfilled housing.

This means you're a good person but these trade-offs are false dichotomies. None of it is necessary to provide these services to all. We already have incredibly long wait times for healthcare in our ruthlessly for-profit system. The only thing that keeps those services from everyone is the greed of the extremely wealthy and the stupidity of those who fall for their lies.

I'm well aware, but I'm saying even if it were true that we had to, it would be well worth it.
- And I think most people would too. Most of us want to be part of something positive. We went to feel like we're actually helping, having an impact.

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I’d wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all

I don't blame you for it, but this is such a bullshit talking point, at least when it comes to U.S. for-profit healthcare. I had to wait over 6 months to see a neurologist after my old one moved to another city. I had to wait two months to get my gallbladder removed just to find out if it would solve a medical problem it didn't solve. I have to go to the Mayo clinic now. I made an appointment in December. I can get in at the end of March.

On top of that, some evaluations that would have helped my daughter a lot earlier took a year and a half from when we scheduled them and we had to drive to another city an hour and a half away by car.

That's pretty much on par with what I hear from people who live in Canada, if not worse.

but this is such a bullshit talking point

Absolutely agree! As I said to a couple others, view my comment as more of a thought experiment, an "even if" type thing (which I should have probably prefaced it with). Even if the talking points were real, it would still be bullshit.

None of the things on my list necessitate sacrificing the other, except for maybe the use of public transportation.

I'm really sorry for what you went through. I went through something similar, and on top of everything else we're adding fuel to the fire by putting ourselves at the mercy of massive private insurance companies.

You're preaching to the choir!
- I'm sorry you have gone through the same thing! I wish I was an outlier case, but I'm a common story and so are you. I wish I had the means to emigrate to Canada or Europe. Anywhere with universal healthcare. We also owe thousands in medical debt and we're going to owe thousands more this year! I'm guessing it's the same for you.
  
  Oh yeah, I've dreamed about the same!
  
  So I had $50,000 debt from my misdiagnosed appendicitis that turned gangrenous, which I could never pay. Fortunately, after a year of getting collections called on me and losing everything I had ever saved, a charity paid all but several thousand on my behalf.
  
  Then before I could pay off those thousands, I was involunantarily put in the psych ward and dumped out a couple days later with no ride home: $8000 (still paying, still accruing interest)
  
  Then my celiac/severe lactose intolerance diagnoses cost several thousand, I don't even know, I stopped keeping track
  
  And through all this, the only times I didn't have to wait months were when my appendix had turned gangrenous and was about to kill me, and when the cops put me in custody.
  
  I've had a toothache for a couple years, but I haven't gone into the dentist because ... that's more thousands, for sure. I'm thinking about taking out dental insurance, but is it worth it? I've had it in the past, and I still paid thousands out of pocket.
  
  I can't even express what I'd give to have access to just basic healthcare.
  
  Oh, and not that this should matter, but I've always done everything "right." I put what I could in savings (wasn't enough), I've worked 40+ hours a week, I've tried to always have insurance (except the year that I got appendicitis because my employer opted not to rehire me when they learned that I was gay).
  
  We probably can't migrate to Canada, probably not Norway (even though I have family there), but we've talked about Mexico where he's from, where even though it's not really socialized, at least it's not so far out of reach for us.
  
  Sorry, didn't mean to make this all about me. I feel like the people who oppose universal healthcare are people who are rich enough to at least never have to go through this sort of thing and can deceive themselves into thinking what we have now is working.
  
  I'm really sorry you had to go through all of that. I'm not going to list all of my current health issues, but the dentist one I can certainly sympathize with because I have a nerve disorder in my face and that means if I go to a dentist, I have to be put under completely or I will probably start screaming. I can't afford that, so I have to live with what I know for sure is a cavity.
  
  I'm pretty sure mine is a cavity, too. I just try to chew on the other side of my mouth and keep it as clean as I can.
  
  Weirdly, mine hurt a lot for a long time and now it only hurts a little. It's not a dead tooth or anything so I'm not sure what's going on.
  
  In Canada, certain yackadoodles are trying to fight tooth and nail to privatize healthcare. I hope Europe's doing at least a bit better on that front.
  
  It's stupidly short-sighted. Many of the people who are voting for privatizing healthcare will almost definitely need public healthcare within the next decade or so. Pension plans only pay so much. Retirement savings only last so long, and people are living longer. It's not like the people who can't afford a house or even post secondary schooling will be able to cover those extra costs for their parents/grandparents. It's all fun and games until you see a bill with more than four zeros, and realize that you only have the three zeros in your account to last you for the rest of your life.
  
  Of course, they'll probably just blame the younger people for it. I don't get it, I really don't. We could be making progress, but that would make sense, and it doest seem like you're allowed to do that anymore.
  
  Best of luck, man. I hope everything works out for you sooner than later.
Agreed. I busted my ankle a few years ago. Tried to get a Dr. To look at it. Closest app. Was 6 months out. So it was either wait 6 months, or go to the ER and pay 5k for an X-ray. I waited, and now the dang thing is perpetually stiff and pops really badly sometimes.
- I blew two tendons in my arm, walked in a clinic two days later when it wasn't presenting like a sprain got x-rays that day and was off work for 6 months on a regime of physio and a return to work rehabilitation gym /physio and massage therapy program that ran monitored by specialists 5 days a week... And never paid a cent.
  
  So the argument that socialized healthcare will cause massive delays doesn't mesh with my personal experience living in such a system.
  
  Mind you I live in a large Canadian city and the resources and scheduling would likely be much worse if I were in a small town but that's the thing. What your population density is has more to do with wait times because staffing is a finite resources no matter who foots the bill.
- I needed a couple of scans at one point and my doctor actually told me to get them at the ER or I would have to wait months! I couldn't wait months. I am not going to be looking good by the end of March as it is. The scans didn't show anything, but that's beside the point. I had to get them to find out what wasn't wrong. So I went to the ER. What else could I do?

Woah woah woah. That's coMmuNiSM

Komrad, Do you think we can trick them by calling it Republic+?
- Oh damn, that's an idea. Make it a "monthly subscription" instead of a tax and I bet lots of people would go for it. "For $x, you get to watch all these shows and if you subscribe now, we'll throw in medical care FREE!"

The lines are still long with private insurance, you're not getting in for specialty procedures very quickly no matter what payment method you use. I say this as someone who does specialty neurodiagnostic procedures in the US. We don't care if you can pay or you have this insurance or that, there's a line everywhere and unless you're coming in through the ED, you have to wait in it.

Keep in mind, too, that in a single-payer system, preventative care is more heavily emphasized. This shifts the load bearing of the system on the front-end (PCPs, NPs) and in theory problems are identified before they snowball into greater issues that require specialties.
Thank you. This is also an important point.

My comment was more of a thought experiment, since none of the things I listed actually require sacrificing the other.
- I'm not trying to start an argument or take away from your point, just trying to preempt the inevitable conservative arguments against universal healthcare.
  
  Yeah, I fully understand, and I appreciate that. It's always an important point to make!

I wouldn’t do those things, but we shouldn’t have to. We don’t have to give up quality medical care for everyone to have it. Or give up houses for everyone to have a place to live. The resources for these things are held by the ultra wealthy, not by the middle class.

You're right about the healthcare thing, because we can just hire more medical professionals and give them better working conditions (including but not limited to pay).

Housing is different. Single family houses take up a lot of space. Space that necessarily reduces space available for other homes. You need to increase average housing density in order to be able to house everyone at a price that is affordable within a reasonable distance of opportunities for work and social activities.
- Single family houses worked just great when we didn’t have 8 billion people. Density is a function of population too
  
  Yes. And today they don’t work great. I’m living in today, and hope to plan to live in the future. I don’t plan to spend any more time living in the past, so I don’t advocate policies that might have worked in the past if they don’t also work in the future.
  
  That said, the large single-family homes that dominate America and my own home country of Australia actually didn’t work "just great". They created an over-reliance on the automobile, and by extension the fossil fuel industry. They ramped up rates of health problems relating to the fact that people get less exercise when they can’t walk or ride a bike to do basic errands. They isolated people from their sense of belonging to a community, and they stunted the growth in independence of children who now require to be driven by parents everywhere, rather than getting on their bikes and riding. The lawns that are synonymous with houses are also terrible ecologically.
  
  So yes, if you look narrowly at it from a housing affordability standpoint, in the past, single family homes worked "just great". But that’s not true today, and it was never true if you look at it from the broader societal impact.

The problem is the ones that need to care the most are the ones that care the least. The richest people in the world are in pissing contests about big ass clocks and space ships.

Do I think these are intellectually cool? Yes. Do I think it's more important than feeding every kid and giving them shelter and education? No.

Well, my comment was just a thought experiment since we don't actually need to trade any of these things for the other, and fortunately we can also feed every kid and give them education too (I've already addressed shelter).

Neoliberals be like: We have to decide. No, we don't.
- The rich need to decide.

The only thing I won't settle for is wage slavery. No one should be held hostage to a job that has stolen their sense of wonder.

I'm so lucky to have a job where I can help people and feel good, at a non-profit that isn't causing harm.

I know not everyone can have this, but we can make it so.
- I'm in the same position, love my job helping people. But a lot of non-profit work doesn't pay well. I haven't been able to afford to go to the dentist in 20 years.
  
  It's been more than a decade for me, for sure. For the dentist.

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It ... was just a thought experiment of sorts, but thanks for outing yourself and your real priorities

I hope you feel better

I would love it if humanity allowed us to all live equally. If there wasn't an overwhelming number of people that want to just take advantage of others who are willing to wait a little longer in line or give up luxuries for cheaper alternatives, it would be perfect.

Life, as beautiful as it can be, is also tainted by harsh realities. By all means, be charitable and kind when you can and help others to build a solid community. However, always be aware that there are also people that survive by draining the resources of others. As far as raw nature is concerned, both strategies are valid if it improves survival rates.

I can't offer any magic solutions or even be a "perfect" person myself. Speaking from an animalistic point of view, my own survival depends on thinking about myself first and then the survival of my DNA second.

Thinking about the brutal realities of life is something I do often and balancing my needs with the needs of others is tough! If I die, or my resources are drained, I can't support anyone else.

This ain't it, chief. The "bad" people you describe are few and far between and not doing any tangible amount of harm.

You know who's really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs. Hell, even suburbanites who live with 3-stall garages and Dodge Rams are draining more resources than the proverbial "welfare queens."

That you see these people as what stands between us and equity instead of the people who are truly responsible is by design. It's a sick, sick world. I'm well aware of the ill-intentioned people in this world, but they're not the ones you're describing in your comment.
- You know who's really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs.
  
  That's mainly who I am referring to, btw. However, I do have a much more grim view on nature itself.
  
  Its perfectly natural to see the world through rose colored classes. Unfortunately, I have seen too much of what the common person is capable of and not just on TV. I really want to believe that everyone wants to do "the right thing" in this world. By the same token, "the right thing" has a million different definitions.
  
  I simply accept that everyone is capable of both wonderful things and also horrific things. It doesn't take much to push a completely sane person into insanity. As an extreme example, war can do that to people. As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
  
  By no means am I saying that living your life in fear and paranoia is a normal and healthy thing. It's not. Everyone just needs to understand the best and worst of any situation.
  
  If anything, doing as I suggest in my top comment would drastically reduce things like violence and hoarding resources. While it's true that we are capable of both good and bad, it is also true that inherently inequitable systems like capitalism and the state greatly exacerbate the bad.
  
  Therefore, the proper way to address this is to replace our current unjust/inequitable systems with systems that provide basic needs to all.
  
  As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
  
  What.
  
  And I believe what you say, in principle. However, people are still going to be people. Unless there is a massive shift in how an entire society thinks, a fair share is simply not enough for a lot of people.
  
  Capitalism is just a symptom of the human condition. A lot of people desire power and control and will build empires to feed those desires. IMHO, this behavior is baked into our DNA at a very primal level. When we cannot get power and control ourselves, we tend to form hierarchies under people who do. Some societies are better at it than others but it always happens, one way or another.
  
  To say a few simple steps will be reduce violence and resource hoarding is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I have to circle back to the previous paragraph: People will always desire more power and more control and will squabble over the most trivial things in an attempt to maintain what power and resources they may already have.
  
  Again, I wholeheartedly agree that we can improve our own lives by helping those around us. It helps to surround yourself with people of a similar mindset, actually. However, I choose not to minimize the hell that is mother nature and what has shaped life on this planet for millions of years.
  
  What
  
  Have you never seen anyone completely loose their shit over the most trivial things? I have. Plenty of times. While I intended to use a made up example, I guess weirder shit has actually happened: https://abc7ny.com/mcdonalds-worker-shot-matthew-webb-michael-morgan-brooklyn/12100882/
  
  People are as brilliant as they are stupid.
  
  I've seen people lose their shit. I've worked in customer service. Most of it stems from the stress of living under capitalism and the pressures of a hierarchical state.
  
  There's a lot to unpack here, but I'd urge you to read Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin. Even just the first chapter or two, I think would change your opinion about human nature. I've experienced many setbacks, but I've seldom been so cynical to think that human nature is inherently selfish and greedy. TL;DR of that book, our ability to evolve relies more on mutual aid than on power and control. This applies even to other animals, when you start to look at it. The book cites multiple examples.
  
  If you're not up to reading that, then AudibleAnarchist has been uploading an audiobook:
  
  YouTube link
  
  Piped link
  
  This is tangential and anecdotal, but I've been beaten, abused, stolen from, manipulated, raped, humiliated, bullied, jailed ... and I still don't believe this crap is human nature. The kind of society I (and many others) envision can be a reality. I know it can.
  
  That last paragraph is horrible. I mean that in the most supportive and sympathetic ways possible and I am sorry anyone has had to go through that. If I could hug you now, I would hug you now.
  
  Unfortunately, I believe some people are just assholes. Same as you, I have been stolen from, bullied and abused as well. Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people. In some ways, I am actually sympathetic to the people who feel the need to do those things to others.
  
  Again, people are capable of great things! However, my experiences have not left me with fear or hate but rather, an abundance of caution. My opinions are just the summation of my experiences, after all. There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family. Quite honestly, other people have their own issues to deal with and my problems are not their concern.
  
  There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family
  
  I feel this to the core.
  
  Maybe my own optimism is just a coping mechanism, but I simply can't believe so many people are just selfish and bad. That just doesn't compute for me, no matter my experiences.
  
  If you feel so inclined, give the first chapter of that book a listen -- don't really need to read the whole thing because he just expands on details and supplies examples after that.
  
  Hopefully things get better for people, no matter what it takes to get there.
  
  Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people
  
  Yeah, when my husband talks about his life in Mexico that left him with PTSD ... and many people have it worse yet. A lot of us are walking around half broken, I think.
  
  Hoping for a better world.
  
  Believe me when I say I was a serious alcoholic for a number of years just trying to cope with life. Like you said, the pressures of capitalism were partially to blame for my stress and anxiety as it's a very real thing for a lot of people.
  
  Over the years, good things have happened. My life has improved and I have stopped doing the stupid things that put me in dangerous situations. Some people helped lift me up and I have done the same for others as time went on.
  
  It seems that the universe, to me, is based on balance. "Good" and "evil" are complimentary and one cannot exist without the other. To be the best we can be, we have to at least understand and acknowledge the worst of the worst.
  
  When we manage to change the world for the better, I'll be right there with you. (I just have a tendency to also look behind me to see who has the knife pointed at my back.)
  
  If that sounds stupid, that is OK! People cope. It's something else we are really good at.
The only brutal reality is unfettered capitalism. We have more than enough to provide everyone with much better than we currently do. The fact is that half of the US's resources are horded by literally a handful of individuals. You want to talk about survivability, what do you think it means to allow so few to have so much power? How do you think that ends?
https://theconversation.com/humans-arent-inherently-selfish-were-actually-hardwired-to-work-together-144145
- Humans are capable of great things and can work great together. Even one on one, most people are excellent to each other, actually.
  
  Unfortunately, all it takes is a thin layer of anonymity to expose the worst in people. We see it online, in traffic and during times of crisis. Even now, people are more likely to express their real feelings and tell me that I am wrong or I am trying to be a "pseudo intellectual" in one case. Cool. That is within their rights but it doesn't improve my outlook on society in any way.
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- It's not an intellectual conversation.
  
  If a pseudointellectual could hang with actual intellectuals, they'd just be an intellectual.

Lol ok. Would love for someone to show up at your house tomorrow and actually demand you move and see how you react. Easy to be all talk when you aren't actually faced with the decision.

Can you explain what this has to do with my comment?

If it were necessary to provide housing for all, then out I'd go!

Believe me, we're the first people to offer our home to neighbors who get evicted or otherwise in need, but we shouldn't have to because housing is a basic human right.

And yes, I'd love not to have to pay the filthy bank! Bring it on!