I liked Star Trek before it got woke. /s

If first interracial kiss on TV is Woke then I don't wanna be anything but.

Don't forget The Measure of a Man. We literally watched that in 9th grade American History, as a commentary about slavery.

It reminds me of those people that claim The X-Men have gotten "woke" even though that's been the whole point of the comic since the 60's or worse yet those poor souls out there who thought Rage Against the Machine was getting too political lol
- "Please, if you find one of our songs that isn't political, please show it to me so I can verify and have it removed." - Tom Morello
  
  There's a lot in renegades
- I wonder what these people think "the machine" means 😭
  
  the printer obvs
- Reminds me of a YouTube comment under the video where they got cut of during a bbc live take for singing "fuck" after the production team brieft them to not sing fuck: "What machine they thought they rage against? The printer?"

Don't forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
- Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
  Great point!
- I like this idea too but ST only partially supports it.
  In ST, the only reason they're ostensibly post capitalist is because they've solved the shortage problem. The replicator and anti-matter reactors are mulligans that get them a post capitalist world without making any social decisions. They don't restructure their society or economy to create an alternate method to distribute limited resources, they just get unlimited resources. That limits the usefulness of the analogy because we'll probably never achieve that.
  Later on ST goes further and starts discussing several resources that are, in fact, limited. There's "latinum" which really only exists as a post scarcity exception. It doesn't really seem to have any uses but the scarcity is enough to drive the entire Ferengi economy and it's valuable enough that people want to trade with them.
  The much bigger exception is the scarcity of trilithium. The Federation fights wars over it the same way real world Earth powers fight over oil. It's the scarce core resource powering their entire post-scarcity economy.
- "'No need for/Evolved past the need for money' ... yeah, wtf, lets just completely ignore that ever-present bit, it's too scary & perverted to comprehend."
  \ avg capitalists Trekkie (or "Trekkie")

I don't know about woke but I liked Trek before it got boring and poorly written -_-
- That's fair, the cartoon is apparently not bad, just not my cup of tea.
- We have The Orville today for good Trek
  
  I really tried to like that show but it's just ... Bad. To each their own but I'd rather just rewatch TNG or whatever other Star Trek. That show feels like it doesn't have an identity, the writers couldn't decide what kind of show they were writing and the acting is subpar.
  Of course, if you enjoy it that's all that really matters - keep on watching and having fun!
  
  Can't stomach McFarlane unfortunately. I'm told it gets better later on but his sense of humor is just like nails on a chalkboard to me. Couldn't get myself to finish the first season.
  
  Exactly. Orville is more "woke" and i absolutely love it. It's supposed to be just a sort of comedy parody of star trek, yet it has more depth than the Discovery has.
- Yes, but that's a reasonable take, so it gets drowned out.
- True. We don't have masterpieces like "Spock's Brain" anymore. /S
  
  Say what you want about TOS, it's campy and silly but it's not boring.
  
  Even Platos Stepchildren, which everyone remembers for the first interracial kiss, was a pretty fucking terrible episode.
- That’s basically all it is: Media getting “too big to fail” and then neutering its writing quality by committee. It tries to tell socially progressive stories at the same time, so people associate the two.
  A streamer pointed out the cognitive dissonance people have, when “anti-woke” people played Baldur’s Gate 3. It was gender expressive and diverse…but it was also GOOD writing. So they decided it was”wasn’t woke”.
- Yep, and they suck at analogies too. The old format usually had fairly enlightened people encounter an injustice, usually making it right in some way. It's morality theater. Discovery made the Federation itself dark and edgy and the people on board a complete mess, not a world I'd like to live in. Maybe that's what some people perceive when they complain about "politics".

I never understood that complaint about Star Trek. The series has ALWAYS been woke since the beginning.
- True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not "in your face". It made you think about it, and the story was way waay better and deeper than today's pew-pew starwars approach to star trek. Every episode had a meaning and a lession.
  
  True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”.
  they did the first US interracial kiss during a time that would be controversial.
  it was "in your face"
  
  Yeah the problem isn't the ideals being in there but how bad the story is makes the ideals seem like a cheap crutch.
  Compare Brokeback Mountain to Ben and Arthur. Both movies about the relationship between gay men and society. Both say gay people should be treated fairly by socity but aren't. The first does it in interesting way with great storytelling and ideas. The later is a hamfisted mess.
  I'm not going to say modern Trek is Ben and Arthur bad but it is much closer to Ben and Arthur writing then it is to Brokeback Mountain.
- Kinda like people complaining Rage Against the Machine becoming political.
  Always has been.

My favorite detail of the TNG episode "The Outcast" is that the writers were pushing for an episode that touched on sexuality but Rick Berman wouldn't go for it. So the writers gave a figurative "fuck you" and wrote an episode on gender identity instead.
And while Berman was occupied holding TNG back the DS9 writers had enough freedom to use the Dax symbiote's multiple lifetimes to explore sexuality instead.
- Does anyone else remember that TNG had a recurring background character who was just a regular crewman but he always wore a Star Fleet dress or skirt that would just walk around in the background of scenes? He may have had heels as well, I can’t remember. Regardless I always thought it was neat that they never made a big deal out of it or a joke
  
  Its a type of uniform called a Skant. It was TNG trying to make the TOS miniskirts unisex. It only lasted a couple seasons I think, but it's gotten a couple callbacks on Lower Decks.
- The DS9 writers would sometimes write a script that they knew would be approved and then give the actors "suggested improvised lines" for what they actually wanted.

Trek on gender: "Don't care, will smash" -- Kirk & Ryker
PS: Memba when Ryker was captured by a pre-First Contact civ and he had to bribe a nurse with an alien kink with sex in order to escape? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
- I remember that being a little more "coercive and rapey" than bribing, since the nurse was the one who demanded "fuck me and I'll set you free, or you can wait for whatever they are going to do to you."
  I get Riker is full of fucks to give, but he didn't seem terribly pleased with not having a choice.
  
  True
  
  I always took his reluctance being about the report he was going to have to make about the incident.
- The soul is willing but the flesh is spongey and bruised!
- Of course I to, I fucking love that episode. I think the Nurse was Lilith from Frasier and the aunt from Jumanji? Questionable consent vibes aside that episode is hilarious and amazing
- **"Will smash, won't even think about care"*
  And even when Wesley momma didn't want to smooch with the nice parasitic lady it was respectfully addressed.
  \ (How or why was all that kept quiet in the first place just remained a barely plastered-over plot hole.)
  
  Wesley's momma is more into banging ghosts and getting a face full of ectoplasm, especially if the ghost was also banging her grandma.

No mebtion of space communism? The federation is Marxist
- The Federation is not Marxist, communist, or socialist. These economic systems rely on a monetary framework where scarcity dictates value. In the Star Trek universe, scarcity has been eliminated on Earth. There is no energy crisis, no poverty, and no starvation. Transportation is instantaneous, and every individual's basic needs are met. With no financial struggle, humanity is no longer constrained by the pursuit of wealth. The Federation is not built on enforced equality but on a shared enlightenment. With abundant resources, every person enjoys a high standard of living.
  
  What? No. Marxism notes that scarcity wouldn't be a thing with increasing industrialization. Indeed, it isn't; we have plenty of resources to put a roof over everyone's head and food in their belly. The base of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs can be completely covered, and the rest are not necessarily best fulfilled by mere material possessions. We could have the whole thing done in a year if society simply made the choice.
  Now, I don't think the Federation is Marxist, because we actually know very little about how the economy works at all. There's contradictory information, it might depend on what time period or planet you're talking about, and the writers have generally been uninterested in exploring the economy beyond superficial mentions.
  
  When you are in post scarcity and everyone has everything they need and everyone works together ina government for mutual benefit that's Marxist communism.
- I mean Sisko kind of does when he describes how the Bell riots have to take place before we unite as a planet and join the Federation
- Well
  End-game socialist
- Real. Star trek isn't woke, star trek is tankie
  
  Nah because they din’t glorify authoritarian violence

What?! Fashion-Lizard and his Sidekick Dr.Twink are Woke?! I can't believe it!
- Well, it did take a while for Fashion-Lizard to stop being Fascism-Lizard.

Oh, OG Trek was woke AF, but it wasn't done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now. It used to feed open-mindedness into everyone's living room and was generally welcome to do so. What we have now is just slapping you in the face with its floppy cock of wokeness every chance it gets. There is now almost no actual plot other than that. Doctor Who is doing the exact same thing. Can nothing of my childhood just be left the fuck alone? I mean, yeah, represent the marginalized. Make female heroes, or transgender, or whatever and whoever you feel needs to be represented or empowered. Do all of that, but do you have to rewrite absolutely everything ever written to do it? Have an original thought. Honestly, at this point, it is just lazy writing masquerading as woke.
- but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now.
  
  I'd also drag out Angel One from TNG. It's the laziest way to write a matriarchy: everything is the same, except women are in charge instead of men.
- I think this is generally what I hear when it comes to "woke" media. I always chalk it up to media having no clue on how normal humans function in a society.
- I think this comment really nails what's irking me amount newer Trek. It used to be a show that was written in a way that regardless of your politics, anyone could watch, and it would make you think. It was a show that would sneakily slip in progressive ideas that could make you second guess your perspectives on the world.
  Now there is no depth to it, it just slaps you in the face with politics.
  This is probably gonna be a hot take, but I think Star Trek should be written in a way that is appealing for conservatives to watch, but regularly slips in metaphors which challenges their world view. Trek was at it's best when on it's surface it was a fun adventure show, and the politics was on a deeper level.
- Thank you, exactly that.
- Explain more about how your childhood is ruined by political messaging in checks notes
  Modern Doctor Who and Star Trek. The best written and acted shows of all time, obviously.
  
  it's done plainly in reference to real life now, as opposed to being integrated seamlessly into the show. a good example would be the episode where the doctor had to erase his mind and Martha (a black woman) had to try and protect him while posing as his servant because it was the 1800s when they were stranded. this was still in real history (aliens aside) but was integrated as part of the plotline and not randomly mentioned with no context. a good example of when they get this wrong is the special with the meep where Donna's daughter says something along the lines of "I'm nonbinary because the doctor-donna is binary" which doesn't make sense in the story because the doctor-donna is binary due to Donna literally merging with the doctor, not gender identity. these things can be integrated well and when you do they only enhance the story by making it feel more realistic, but you have to make them fit the story, not the other way round.

Star Trek is and always has been deeply and inherently political

Wait until people finally get the epiphany that Star Trek is advocating for a world government. And how many here, including outside the Internet, would actually like that?
Precisely.
- I don't know. I might like that? It depends a lot on how it is implemented and who is in charge. 😅
  
  And how much power the global government has compared to individual regions.
- IIRC, a world government is a prerequisite for joining the Federation isn't it?

I liked Trek before Alex Kurzman stuck his filthy fingers in it and made entire franchise a steaming pile of dog shit.
- Haha, true that.
  But he tried.
  
  And failed.

Is there a single episode without politics?

This is one of the first claims I remember reading about Star Trek on BBSs linked by FidoNet. It's funny how it hasn't changed.

I like scifi. I like to explore the strange and push past the walls of reality. I like dangerous visions. Big ideas.
But interpersonal drama, identity-stroking and, yes, politics. It's just weak and boring. It's small. Damn small.
Do you see the difference?
Sometimes startrek goes big. Sometimes it doesn't.
- politics is all-encompassing, it can be as big or as small as anything else
  
  Well I suppose it's a matter of perspective.
- Sci-fi is at its best when it recontextualizes an idea in a way that makes us consider it from a different perspective.
  Battlestar Galactica did an awesome job of turning the issues around entirely. Famously, it essentially turned the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan on their heads in Season 3, and you had the good guys building IEDs and employing suicide bombers to kill collaborators.
  But my favorite one was when they came up with a situation in which outlawing abortion was necessary, and the political opposition used it as an opportunity to manufacture outrage and steal an election even though they didn't actually care about the issue at all.
  
  But you don't need spaceships and aliens to do that. It's just fetishwear at that point.
  In real scifi it isn't fetishwear. It actually serves a purpose.
- You need good characters to make a good show regardless of the setting, and also to help the viewers relate to the “big” stuff going on around them.
  Don’t get me wrong, I think I like the stuff you like. I’d happily watch a documentary about all the made up technology and new science & life they discover, with zero need for conflict or personal growth or “feelings” or whatever. But that wouldn’t be the TV show, which is experienced largely through the eyes of the crew.