Israel’s military began a heavy aerial bombardment of Gaza after nightfall on Friday and announced that it is “expanding” its ground operations into the territory—but did not declare a full-scale ground invasion that has been expected for weeks.Internet and phone service in Gaza has been mostly, if ...
Some people, communicating via satellite phones, have described the attack as the “heaviest bombardment yet,” according to independent journalist Sharif Kouddous.
“People can’t call ambulances or civil defense. We are being bombed in an unprecedented manner,” said an unidentified journalist at a Gaza hospital, according to a translation by The Nation’s Palestinian correspondent, Mohammed El-Kurd. “The sky around us just lights up [with explosions], and no one knows what’s going on.”
If you say so. Still it didn't worth it to plan and perform that October 7th aggression. To think how much time and resources that required and how much stuff could be done instead to actually improve the lives of Palestinians, it's sad and should be embarrassing.
The median age of Palestinians is 18 which means more than half weren't alive for the vote of Hamas. Now, Hamas has dismantled any democracy so they can't even take a diplomatic route. And Israel keeps bombing them making sure they continue the system of oppression which in turn spawns more radicals.
And that's their main problem. You can't be responsible government if you don't care about your citizens. You can't rely on the rest of the world to save your citizens while you continue aggression.
Well you could say that with the money Israel is burning for the terrorist action these days it could have found a way to keep its citizens alive.. and still here we are.
These kind of arguments don't really help do much progress, do they?
You can't imagine how much money were burned on iron dome alone. All to save lives and try to show terrorists they should do something else with their lives.
Yeah... imagine if Jewish people spent their energy appeasing Nazis instead of doing the "Jewish Bolshevism" which forced those poor white supremacists to go on a genocidal rampage - tsk, tsk.
(/s - for the people on here that aren't rabid white supremacists like the one I'm responding to)
I got temp banned from lemmy.ml for saying that. Basically said "except Ukraine didn't attack Russia first", then got the banhammer. A quick Google on their point (cant even remember what it was) and I knew it was bullshit. I blocked lemmy.ml right after
And you deserved it. Israel has been waging aggresive war on Palestine since 1949 - not that this matters to white supremacist colonialism apologists like you and your ilk.
It doesn't matter as long as their are not doing what is better for them, or Palestinians. Spoiler: attacking Israel like they did on October 7th was not going to do any good.
Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good. Hamas is not good and committed a terrorist act. An atrocity. Hundreds injured and dead.
Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month. More children dead than any entire year of any other war of the last 3 years, including Ukraine.
There are over a hundred times as many dead Palestinian kids as Israeli. We should mourn both, but we should keep in contact the numbers too.
Attacking Hamas is not happening, but nobody denies that attacking Hamas is justified. Attacking Palestinians in general as an alternative in the hope that some of Hamas is swept up is a war crime.
That information comes from the Palestinians health authority which is considered pretty accurate. Every death is a tragedy, yes, so 3000 kids tragedies is 100 times the tragedies of the 30.
Israel does not have good reason to "invade" Gaza. They are using terrorist attacks to justice genocide. Genocide is never justified.
I don't think your assumption that Israel can only "attack Palestinians in hopes to harm hamas" is correct. They wouldn't warn anyone otherwise and we know they did that a lot of times. Also their counter strikes would've been much more effective if they wouldn't do that.
There are no authorities in Gaza except hamas. Gaza is fully controlled by terrorists. If there would be such an authority I'm sure they wouldn't allow building military objects under hospitals.
They are using terrorist attacks to justice genocide.
Think you mistyped "justify". Israel doesn't need to justify defending from terrorists. Hamas, on the other hand, has a record of using Palestinians as a shield and not caring to protect them at all.
Hamas using them as a shield does not make killing them right.
Israel is not defending itself from terrorism. It is retaliation for a terrorist attack.
They do have some intelligence as to where Hamas use as locations etc however rules of war require they take precautions to minimise civilian casualties. They give some warnings as this gives plausible deniability that they are taking precautions. The number of dead civilians versus confirmed Hamas killed tells a different story. Telling people to leave but closing the border tells a different story. Telly people to leave one area then bombing the path they were told to take tells a different story.
Hamas is the de facto government, but Palestine is not recognized as a state so there is not really a government, as most in other countries would know it, especially western counyries. Guess who is preventing normalisation of their sovereignty? Last elections were 17 years ago. The youngest people to vote are now over 35. 50% of the population is under 18. So, the legitimacy of saying they voted for this is spurious at best. Remember Israel and netamyahu in particular stifled their competitors.
Incessant bombing of civilians is creating more terrorists, not less. That doesn't make it right, but to make out like Israel is defending itself while killing thousands of children is ridiculous. Israel as a state is a de facto terrorist state too at this point
Hamas using them as a shield does not make killing them right.
It makes hamas responsible for their death. Otherwise, you are suggesting leaving alone terrorists who asked you to not bomb them, and who will still proceed to bomb you.
Israel is not defending itself from terrorism. It is retaliation for a terrorist attack.
Hamas launched rockets regularly. And you're saying Israel only now started to retaliate? They must be very lazy, yes? Or maybe it's because they have been shown they had to do it, as defending-only way no longer works.
They give some warnings as this gives plausible deniability that they are taking precautions.
Wow, people do what they have to do and you are saying they are doing it with malicious intention.
The number of dead civilians versus confirmed Hamas killed tells a different story.
What versus what exactly? One side is Israel who is monitored by the whole world, and the other is a territory controlled by terrorists. Numbers coming from the latter are useless without further confirmations.
Telling people to leave but closing the border tells a different story.
Did Israel close the border? I know Egypt did. Can't blame Israel if they did so.
Telly people to leave one area then bombing the path they were told to take tells a different story.
Proceed to demand explanation if you like. I doubt they would waste resources to do something that useless.
Hamas is the de facto government, but Palestine is not recognized as a state so there is not really a government, as most in other countries would know it, especially western counyries. Guess who is preventing normalisation of their sovereignty?
If they really wanted to become a proper country with proper government they would at least try. Instead they are focused on trying to do the impossible - winning the war versus Israel, using stones and sticks.
Last elections were 17 years ago. The youngest people to vote are now over 35. 50% of the population is under 18. So, the legitimacy of saying they voted for this is spurious at best.
Those are useless details that can't justify anything.
Remember Israel and netamyahu in particular stifled their competitors.
Irrelevant. You are proposing basically that hamas is the best Palestinians can get, and I strongly disagree.
Incessant bombing of civilians is creating more terrorists, not less. That doesn't make it right, but to make out like Israel is defending itself while killing thousands of children is ridiculous. Israel as a state is a de facto terrorist state too at this point
this is not what Israel wants or tries to do.
hamas created situations where civillians are located near places they launch rockets from.
hamas also created situation where Palestinians are not protected at all from any (counter)attacks. They say this is a responsibility of others which is ridiculous.
Israel is responsible for the Palestinians dead, not Hamas. The question is whether they are justified in killing the Palestinians. It is a war crime to kill indiscriminately without care to avoid civilian casualties. That's why I mention about the performative warnings. They are not genuine nor helpful.
Hamas launched rockets for years. Israel kicked Palestinians out of settlements and killed them for years. Again, one side being terrible doesn't make the other good. Look at the statistics of how many Israel is died versus how many Palestinians. Your logic that Israel has a right to defend itself goes both ways.
Yes Israel closed the border. And cut off supplies of food water and medical supplies. Thousands of children are being treated in hospitals for burns covering over 40% of their bodies with no available general anesthesia. That is cruelty and inhumane.
I agree, Palestinians can do better than Hamas. Guess who stifled funding for their competition? Israel, or more specifically, Netamyahu. There has been calls for a Palestine state for decades, including negotiations with USA helping intervene. They were abandoned due to both sides not budging. Again, no good side, just bad on both, with innocent people dying in the meantime.
You say that Hamas is the government then ignore the problems with legitimacy of Hamas. You ignore that the Palestinians want to be a state but most other countries refuse to recognize it. They already consider themselves a state. Youre not following logic or using similar metrics for each side, so I'm going to leave it here. I hope you continue to learn more as you seem to be arguing from a place of propaganda rather than facts. We are all susceptible to propaganda, so that's not a dig at you but I thought worth pointing out.
Aggression. Aggression that showed Israel's way of defense can no longer work and that terrorists won't stop.
As for the occupation, there is no use in arguing because the bigger issue is logic. It was obvious from the start that this action would not have chances to bring any good end to the situation for Palestinians. No matter what real or fake reasons are, it was foolish. Attacking Israel because of occupation (with weapons like that) is like stabbing yourself with a knife because you have a flu.
Until they have a chance to actually change anything for good for themselves - yes. Palestinians couldn't unsteal the lands so October 7th was useless. Israel will be able to prevent terrorists attack for a few years so the ground operation is not useless
Or, hamas could just surrender and release all hostages to immediately stop what's happening right now.
Deranged an inhuman is to do terrorism, knowing that not only people are going to die, but your people are, too, going to die and suffer as a result. There is zero "protection" or "justice" in these actions and trying to justify them with anything like "but they are occupiers so it's okay to attack them" is beyond foolish.
Expecting humans to act like robots is quite literally inhuman. They're pissed off and desperate. That has not not ever in human history resulted in negotiations. This entire line of reasoning is only meant to make Palestinians look like violent savages when the reality is this is how Apartheid and anti colonial struggles have always looked.
Expecting humans to act like robots is quite literally inhuman.
Expecting humans to not resort to useless terrorism is nothing like that.
They're pissed off and desperate.
Doesn't mean they can kill anyone and remain unaffected by consequences.
That has not not ever in human history resulted in negotiations.
I'm not sure I understand this sentence. What is "that"? What is "not not"?
This entire line of reasoning is only meant to make Palestinians look like violent savages when the reality is this is how Apartheid and anti colonial struggles have always looked.
I'm not even trying to make Plaestinians look bad and I know some of them really want to kill (some did killed) jews in order to become heroes. They are victims of hamas in several ways, but it doesn't save them. Why? Because Gaza is at war, and, as a war participant, it's unique in how it doesn't care about its civilians during a war. Hamas' only defense is hostages, and Palestinians are not much different from hostages. That's why there may be a lot of casualties, not because Israel is "a bloody monster" or whatever.
I think everyone should drop the whole apartheid/colonialism thing and realize that it can't be solved with current hamas' approach. Maybe it could be solved if Gaza cared to make itself a proper country, to become independent, sustainable and responsible. Maybe also abandoning radical religion could help.
If the Palestinians are hostages why isn't Israel allowing them to leave the combat area?
I'm done here. You're still asserting that this collective punishment is some kind of natural response to the Hamas attack but are completely ignoring any human nature on the side of the Gazans. They have to remain ultra rational while being shot at but the Israelis are allowed to have emotion.
You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.
Their strategy of indiscriminate bombing would not be the answer if they wanted to kill Hamas only. There's absolutely no regard for civilians here. They're not destroying Hamas. They're eradicating the population of Palestine. Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.
So Hamas shouldn't have retaliated against (murdered and kidnapped) innocent people who didn't attack them (babies, the elderly and other Israeli citizens).
Did I get it right?
You seem to be confused. I'll help you understand. It's a matter of perspective:
For Israel, this 'invasion' has nothing to do with Hamas. They were just waiting for a reason to seize more land, and this was the perfect opportunity to get the international community behind them. War crime upon war crime under the pretext of defense.
Calls for a ceasefire will be ignored because this is their best chance in decades to take a sizeable chunk of Gaza.
For Hamas, the constant, near century-long murdering of innocent men, women and children is causing the survivors of those attacks to take up arms in anger and fight back. They're not getting a proper education. A Palestinian child born in the early 2000s has already survived 5 wars by now. Hamas is their only vocation. Yes, they're terrorists to us (sitting in our armchairs and engaging in backseat politics from the comfort of our homes), but not to the Palestinian people who seem to be "shielding" them. No one in Palestine is blind to the real terrorists, i.e. Israel.
This is a land grab pure and simple, and Israel is prepared to dig deep.
but you meant that Israel's real purpose for invading Gaza is not to stomp out Hamas.
I mean, kind of?
The ultimate goal is to have all of Palestine become Israel, and have no more Palestinians live here - have them die, resettle in Egypt, or have other Arabian or European nations take in the refugees. They don't want Palestinians sharing the land, when in reality the Palestinians were forced to share their land with Israel. After this they would have a complete patch of land (formerly the whole of Palestine) belong entirely to them. That's the goal.
Hamas is Netenyahu's greatest gift from Palestine. If Palestine never retaliated, no one would ever be able to justify Israel's terrorism (raiding innocent settlements, evicting people who have lived there for 10+ generations, saying "well if I don't steal your home, someone else will").
With Hamas as a retaliatory force, they've been able to convince the world through incendiary and dehumanising language that Hamas are terrorists.
IDF's recent actions have been deemed "acceptable" by the world because they are retaliating and defending themselves from a Hamas attack, not taking into account that the Hamas attack itself was a retaliation for years upon years of Israeli attacks.
When Hamas retaliates, they can use this brand of excessive force, where they bomb entire neighborhoods for the possibility of killing some Hamas members. Somehow the world is watching on - America says Israel is allowed to continue to defend itself, when that's clearly far beyond what they're doing now.
If some Hamas soldiers die in the process, then so be it! Israel definitely does not want to eliminate all of Hamas until they have all of Palestine though, since they need an enemy to make their war legit, but at the same time, it's impossible to eliminate Hamas without Palestine, because Hamas is comprised of untrained, uneducated kids who have seen nothing but war since they were children.
What you are getting wrong is that they ARE "glassing" the entirety of Gaza, with almost no restraint. That is not excusable, no matter which enemy you are fighting. The thing is, they won't be able to kill Hamas either way, it's only a choice between less Palestinian civilian casualties and more of them
They first launch a smaller rocket to "warn" residents to evacuate the premises before the big boy rockets lights up the place and called that "roof knocking". I'm not kidding, that was their actual policy before this.
They actually used the app Telegram, as well as flyers, localized broadcasts, and even direct phone calls.
Unfortunately Hamas is killing Palestinian civilians who head south, to scare them into remaining in the combat zone, because Hamas does not value human life at all
This has been going on for 3 weeks already, they did do the "knocking" and warning for at least the first couple weeks. Phones have been working, on external batteries recharged from generators, up until this weekend.
They are a professional army assaulting the most densely populated area in the world. Not letting refugees pass through their lines is already a war crime. Instead they seem to be compressing the population more and blaming Hamas for having the gall to fight at all.
You don't get to accuse the other side of using human shields as you kettle more civilians in with them.
Oh, if only Jewish people didn't use the people of the Soviet Union as "meat shields" to hide their "Jewish Bolshevism" behind those poor, victimized Nazis wouldn't have had to go on a genocidal mass-murder campaign that resulted in thirteen million plus people being needlessly slaughtered!
(/s - for the people on here that aren't rabid white supremacists like the one I'm responding to)
Ah yes because murdering millions of your own harmless citizens, who some served in your military is totally the same as fighting against a terror organization who massacred and pillaged your villages and keeps 200+ of your citizens captive.
I think what we’re learning from this is that ghettos are a step on the path to genocide. That’s the link to Germany here. You put a subset of “your” people into a walled off place, at some point in the future unless you take down that wall and re-integrate those people, you’re gonna massacre them.
Whether you think you’re capable of genocide or not, you are. We all are. And we need to be paying attention to the things that lead to it. And what this is demonstrating is that ghettos lead to genocide.
No Palestinian, or Gazan ever thought of themselves as Israeli, and neither did Israel think of them as their own.
The situation of Gazans is terrible, but again - they're not part of Israel, and are never intending to be. That's so different from Nazi Germany that it's just insane to compare the two.
Stop thinking of the Holocaust as a genocide. It's so much more. It's blatant racism, and a well tuned death machine. Something Israel both aren't doing now, and didn't do ever. Israel is only fighting for the good of its own people, and no one in the world can blame them, since every other single nation would've done the same. (Btw, same as Egypt who are doing what's best for their people by not letting Gazans immigrate)
I think it's the other way around. Israel put them in a gheto because they literally had no other way to protect their citizens. Now that the Palestinians have found a way around that, they're back to killing the Israelis. And Israel is responding again.
That’s the same reasoning the Nazis used though. They said that Jews caused Germany to lose WW1, Jews caused the pain and suffering and instability of the German people. This was German land, not Jewish land, and so they had no choice but to lock up and exterminate the Jews for the safety and wellbeing of their own.
Nazis didn't even "want" to exterminate the Jews... Gypsies yes, they shot those on sight, just like cripples... but all those Jews, Poles, Gays and similar, they "only" wanted to ship them all to Egypt or wherever in Africa... but those pesky Allies thwarted their plans, so "what were they supposed to do". 🙄
And look, Egypt is again refusing to let the "undesirables" in, only this time it's the Palestinians... and the ones pushing them out are the Israelis. 😒
Wonder what will the books end up calling this "operation".
Israel is worse than Russia. Russia, in contrast, looks downright reasonable.
In a few weeks, Israel has killed almost as many civilians as those that have died on both sides over the course of almost two years of the Russia-Ukraine war.
Everything any of these leftist fucks say is always wrong. It's impossible to quantify it all in one post, but here's the broad strokes.
Hamas is a terror organization who steals from, tortures, and oppresses their own people. Hamas seeks to maximize civilian casualties however possible.
2: Israel is not committing (or even attempting) genocide. This one's especially bad because you'd have to be pants-on-head stupid to believe it. It's just pure, distilled, antisemitism.
3: Palestine isn't a country, was never a country, and only Israel has ever been interested in making them a country.
4: Russia and Israel are operating at exact opposite purposes. Russia is trying to rekindle the Russian Empire. Israel is just trying to not suffer genocide against a foreign regime that literally calls for genocide of Jews worldwide. When I say literally, I mean they literally put out a call to action after their attack for Jews to be attacked worldwide, prior to any Israeli military response.
5: Israel is acting with severe restraint compared to what the US would do if a foreign nation invaded and murdered 45,000 people in their homes. Adjusted for population size, that's what the comparable death toll would be in the US. We'd absolutely fucking level any country that did that. We fought WW2 over less. We fought Iraq and Iran over less than 10% of that
It's hard to call out specifics when every single thing every one of these people say is wrong.
You haven't read about the founding of modern Israel and the history of Zionism. Please do
(Before accusing me if being pro-terrorist, pro-Hamas whatever, know that I consider both entities unnecessarily violent and evil. But it is important to know why they are that way)
zephyreks is a !worldnews@lemmy.ml mod who is banning people there for "orientalism" when they criticize the CCP (you can check their modlog), also it's the same instance where admins haven't banned a lead Lemmy dev when he repeatedly said that "all Israeli citizens are valid targets" and they merely deleted his comments way after they came under fire but until now they are still working with him. It should be clear by now that most "we're just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don't like Hamas" people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism, which is also why they usually share sketchy pro-Hamas sources. They'll concern-troll about the victims in Gaza but in reality all that matters to them is that the US and one of its most important allies get hurt, because, you know, it helps advance their anti-capitalistic "cause", and for the most antisemitic of them they'll also rejoice at some Jewish deaths.
I mean, its not that hard to find both Isreal AND Hamas's actions atrocious. What happened on the terrorist attack was horrifying and disgusting, and so is how Isreal is "Responding" (In quotes because while the severity has ramped up, this isnt exactly new behavior towards Gaza). I hate the Tankies here too, but thats not a Tankie only stance
It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism
I disagree here. There's plenty of people genuinely horrified by the civilians killed by both sides.
Neither Ukraine nor Russia come even close to as bloodthirsty for civilian lives as Israel. Israel is killing civilians and killing Hamas fighters as collateral damage. Ukraine and Russia are killing each other's soldiers and killing civilians as collateral damage. They're not the same.
I think this is likely correct. Lemmy's users skew very young. It explains a lot about what opinions, sentiments and views are and are not popular around here. Obviously there are some oldsters like myself, but I think we're more the exception rather than the rule.
Ukraine is way larger than Gaza, the EU has let millions of refugees in... and still Russia has leveled several Ukrainian cities to the ground, with soldiers shooting random civilians on the streets.
Right now, Russia is like Israel and Hamas put together, the only reason they've killed fewer civilians, is they couldn't find more.
but you're stupid enough that you can't tell that religion is nothing more than masquerading power over the masses with the promise of a paradise.
Religion is just politics but in the name of a not existent god so the ones in power need no justification of their actions other than "it's God's will".
One is a religious war and the other is not, that’s not an opinion, just a basic fact of reality. No idea how delusional you have to be to not comprehend that.
Invading a sovereign nation, killing innocents, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas, forcefully relocating people, land grabbing, spreading dehumanizing propaganda, threatening to use nukes...
It is exactly the same thing what both Hamas and Israel have been doing.