xkcd #2948: Electric vs Gas
xkcd #2948: Electric vs Gas
Alt text:
An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that's the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill.
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"On the other hand gas has a much higher energy density than batteries and a much faster refuel rate."
It's exactly this. Convenience. We've become accustomed to how convenient it is and don't want to be put out.
On the other hand, it's super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.
That's basically 90% of every car owner.
It's one of those things where people feel like they're going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.
Unfortunately, people tend to buy vehicles to best accomplish 1% of their driving. I live in the suburbs and almost every house has a giant pickup parked in front. Not because people are in the construction business and need to haul a lot of stuff, but because once a year they might go to Home Depot and it feels good to put their two bags of mulch in the back.
Part of the problem is not having the money or space for an extra vehicle.
I drive an SUV, I don't particularly like driving an SUV, I get a lot of use out of having a larger vehicle, I'm an avid DIYer who makes frequent trips to the hardware store to pick up lumber and such, I have a lot of outdoor hobbies and usually end up being the one who drives so I'm carrying gear for several people, I don't exactly go off roading, but those hobbies sometimes take me on some poorly maintained, deeply rutted, muddy roads and 4wd has gotten me out of some jams, I occasionally drive onto the beach to go fishing, usually find myself towing a small trailer a couple times a year, and I'm an essential employee that lives in an area that gets snow with a weird schedule that usually has me commuting before the snow plows have gotten through everywhere.
But even though I probably get more actual use out of an SUV than most people, most often I'm still only driving about 20 miles or less a day, on paved roads, in weather that doesn't require anything more than working headlights, wipers, and tires that aren't totally bald.
If I had the budget and parking space I'd probably have the cheapest base model EV I could find for most of my commuting and small errands and save the SUV for my days off and when it snows. That's not the case though.
A PHEV SUV would do wonders.
I am so ready to hop on the PHEV or even full electric bandwagon.
I do have 2 major hurdles though.
First is there aren't a lot of vehicles out there, at an affordable price point for me that quite fit my needs. I've pretty much dialed in that a midsized SUV or small pickup truck is just right for me. There's some exciting options coming down the pipeline, but none that are out there have quite hit the sweet spot for me yet. (I am champing at the bit for Ford to release a PHEV AWD maverick with a midgate to make up for that short bed. That's basically my ideal vehicle, I'd also be stoked for Toyota to do a plug in 4runner, my current car is a 4runner and I like it a lot, if either of those happen before I'm ready for my next car theres a good chance that's what I'm getting)
Second is charging, I live in a townhome with no garage or driveway, so if I want to charge at home I'm pretty much stuck running about a 30ft extension cord across my front lawn and sidewalk. That's less than ideal, and my HOA hasn't exactly been friendly to others in my neighborhood who have gone electric who have done that. I can probably work around that though, the way my schedule works, unless I go in for overtime I usually don't work more than 3 days in a row, so if battery-only range gets a little better for PHEVs (which hopefully they will by the time I'm able to budget for a new car in a few years) I can probably do most of my commuting on one charge and find an hour or two on my days off to go somewhere with a fast charger.
In the meantime, I just try to get my wife to do as much of the driving as possible when we're both off since she has a prius, our schedules don't always align, but when they do I only drive if we need my bigger car for something.
It's a long way off, but we also fantasize about the possibilities of self-driving cars someday when all of the problems are worked out. Since we have different schedules (she works a regular 9-5, I work 3pm-3am on a 2-2-3 schedule,) we could have one self driving car for most of our commuting and errands, it could take her to work, come home and take me to work, pick her up and take her home, and pick me up at the end of my shift, and go charge itself in-between.
But 100% of the time they feel like they’ve got big ‘ole balls.
If they use a camper or heavy trailer even four times per year, fine whatever keep your truck. The other millions of Americans should've just rented a vehicle when they needed it, and it would've been far cheaper and more convenient to have their daily driver as a regular sized sedan.
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Volt, nice choice. I wish there were more plug-in hybrids to choose from. Logically 50 miles on battery would suffice for most of my trips.
PHEV should've been the norm with ICE as a rare, overly expensive option. Since 2014 or earlier.
It took me a while to take the plunge, but I'm never going back
The last time I heard someone say that, they were taking about bidets, and it was life changing.
If I had to choose, the bidet was a bigger life improvement. Both are great though.
Or just use the clothes dryer circuit... Charge the car overnight.... Get all the range.
You don't even need the clothes dryer circuit, the vast majority of people don't drive enough in a day to need anything more than a standard 15a outlet
Tech Connections showed this pretty well.
it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank
But, to make that possible, you basically have to have a "gas station" at home. If you own your own house you can modify it to install a charging spot. If you rent, you might not have that option.
All EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug in to your standard house outlet, NEMA 5-15R. If there's an outlet nearby you can charge your car.
That can still be difficult for apartment renters, but there's no need to modify your house.
All EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug in to your standard house outlet.
Sure, but if you use those it takes a very long time to charge. Like, from empty it can take 40+ hours to charge a battery EV from empty to 80%. If you're using your car to commute and your commute is anywhere near the max range of your car, that isn't a viable option.
Are those two things actually important?
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I'm sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn't matter.
Plus the technology to battery swap is well in use for electric vehicles (see Nio, who have thousands of battery swap stations in China and some in Europe too). 3 mins and you have a full battery.
It matters to people who drive more during the day than their range allows. They don't want to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge every time they venture 300km out and back /s
Why do people still pretend it takes longer than 20 minutes to get a 50% charge increase?
Because it's currently easier to find a gas station than a charger that will do that performance. Now I'm willing to wait 8 hrs for 10%, but others certainly aren't.
You must live in a red state or the middle of nowhere. It's easy to find chargers everywhere I've been.
Yes, my point. I have to charge my car at home because of charging stations are either far, or Tesla owners park in them to do shopping.
Saying I live somewhere shit doesn't disprove my point that gas is more readily available.
Yeah because the conservative government of those areas is actively suppressing them from being built.
My parents live in the sticks, in a red state, and I have no problem finding charging stations within twenty miles from them.
Wait, I'm confused (out of date??) I thought it took hours to charge. Has that changed?
Fast chargers can fully charge my car (range ~400mi) in about an hour
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I don't have enough charge for my trip. I'm also thirsty.
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I go to a grocery store with a fast charger.
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I buy a drink.
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I have enough charge.
If it's a long trip where I need more charge, I choose a car snack, and I'll have enough.
If I'm on an actual long car trip and I want to charge all the way from the warning light to 100%, I will need to eat a meal anyway. I just find a McDonald's/cafe,/restaurant/whatever with a fast charger, and it'll be full before I'm done.
But finding a store/eating place with a fast charger is still waaaay less convenient than just finding a place where I can get diesel in seconds, and find a different place to get drinks/food/snacks.
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Most cars will charge to 80% pretty fast. 20%-70% is really fast on most.
fast charging on modern HV battery packs will get you to 80% from 0 in like 15-20 minutes. I've seen lower, but it's really fucking usable now.
Why /s? Road trips are a thing, and you'd be hard pressed to find a combo restaurant/charging station that's along your path.
restaurant/charging station combo
The people providing the charging infrastructure here haven't figured out this important point yet. Gas stations are a terrible place to put chargers, no one wants to stop at a gas station for fifteen minutes to an hour at a time. Charging stations need to be in places people will be stopping anyway, or at the very least places that provide something to do while waiting. Restaurants, shopping centres, tourist traps, whatever.
Here it's exacerbated by the fact that the fastest chargers we have only deliver about 60kW. Not even close to the 200+ some EVs need to get the fast charging times they advertise. But that 60kW would be perfectly fine if I could spend the time in a restaurant instead of standing around at a gas bar in the middle of nowhere.
Hell, even cheap (or free) "level 2" chargers outside restaurants and shopping malls would be a huge help.
I live in Denmark, here the chargers are placed where people park anyway. Grocery stores, parking lots, rest stops...
It's getting so easy to find a fast charger/resto combo, that we don't even plan it from home.
I've seen few 200+ watts chargers without looking for them, but the car is ready faster than I am anyway.
As it should be, and I agree that those crazy fast 200+ kW chargers are rarely necessary.
It's kind of a weird reaction to consumer hesitation and people complaining that they don't want to wait for charge times as compared to the time it takes to fill a tank. Making charging as fast as possible to address the complaint (while still being one or two orders of magnitude slower at best), because that's easier than getting people to change their driving habits, or making them realise that they're always going to start the day with a full charge at home.
Even if all you have is relatively paltry north american 110V at home you need to drive way more than average per day for that not to keep up.
Road trips are a tiny fraction of all vehicle use, it's fine to relegate them to specialty vehicles.
Quick Google says a great majority of Americans take road trips. Even though it's a tiny fraction of their driving, it's still a deciding factor for many when choosing a car. Not all people have the luxury of affording a second car just for road trips.
Public transportation would be good, but there's less flexibility to it. For example, just yesterday, on a return from a roadtrip, I got stomach sick and had to request frequent stops. That wouldn't fly on a train.
I'd love it if we had affordable and flexible public transport for getting all across the country, though.
I take road trips in my EV. It’s fine. You get to pee and walk the dog. The extra time isn’t much and it’s actually way more relaxing
It’s weird how defensive people get over their cannonball road trips. It’s great to take a few minutes on a break while taking a long trip.
Hell, my ICE car warns me when I’ve been driving for too long. Taking a break mid-trip isn’t isolated to EVs
That sounds good.
Unless you're taking road trips literally every other week you could just rent a gas vehicle when it's time for a road trip. Rather than make the decision of the car you're going to drive every single day based on something you only do maybe once a year.
It's why I don't own a pickup truck, I actually do haul cars, help people move and all that shit that people say is why they need a pickup truck but I just go to fucking U-Haul and rent either the Sprinter van or the pickup truck for 30 bucks plus mileage when I need one. And I do actually keep track of my financial records with a double Ledger Finance app I just went and looked and I'm still nowhere near the cost of a used pickup truck from all of that renting
Good idea. I hadn't thought of that.
Take road trips how often? Once a year? Maybe twice?
Yeah, but road trips can be expensive. Suppose you want to go from Harrisburg PA to Rockford IL with 2 adults and 1 teenager from November 15 to 22.
- By car that's about 1500 miles. An average car gets 21 mpg, so that's about 71 gallons. Gas is around $3.5 per gallon, so the trip costs about $250 in gas. You'll need a hotel. I picked a random one in Ohio. $110 for the way up, $185 for the way back. I guess that's a Thanksgiving price hike. $545 total.
- By train, let's say Amtrak because that came up first. $438 up, and that includes boarding a train at midnight and sleeping on the train, and then riding a bus from Chicago to Rockford for 2 hours. $483 back down, and this time when you sleep on the train you have to wake up by 5 AM to get off. Also this is coach class, and those seats aren't great for sleeping. At least you don't need a hotel. $921 total.
- By plane, it's $650 round trip, simple as, but you have to leave at 6 AM on the way up and 5 AM on the way back. It can cost $200 more to get a more convenient time, but let's assume you're going for economy alone. $650 total.
That's not accounting for food prices along the way. That could bring the car ride up to the same price as the plane if you don't pack food, but if you're spending extra on convenience there, you're probably willing to spend extra for convenience on the plane too.
So it's probably safe to say that, for this group, the car saves about $100 per year, but helping to protect the environment is worth that price. On the other hand, there's something to be said for the flexibility and ease of planning on a car. For a bigger family, cars would be a way better option, and for a family without kids or a lone traveler, planes are the way better option. Trains are right out.
I'd also add time to the comparison. Time isn't free, and if you spend 2 solid days driving, you might reconsider flying and renting a car at the destination even if it's more expensive. If you use an ev and have to take a few stops extra that might tip the scale.
I’m so glad here in Germany they do that more often now. We have a quite a few large charging parks next to restaurants and bakeries. I just made a 9 hour trip to Denmark and it was a pretty nice experience overall. Only downside is you have to plan ahead if you want this convenience because the majority is still spots with 1-2 occupied chargers at some ugly, smelly Autobahn rest area.
Id be hard pressed to plan a road trip and not find one, then again I live in the U.S. where are you from? Currently sitting in a car in Tempe.
Although own an electric car, I believe range is still an issue. I was specifically addressing fuel density and charging time. EVs have their issues, but I believe they will be solved over time even though they are unlikely to beat an ICE in fuel density or charge rate for a long time. But I don't think those things are actually important, because the problem is solved in a different way.
Yes, for people who can't charge at home. I'd love to swap to electric, but 1 hour trip to go charge the car at the nearest charging station is not realistic - especially since I'd need to do it twice as often as 10min trip to refuel.
Also there's the EV prices, starting at 2-3 times more than my current whip lol
This is exacerbated by that battery technology is at its limit, and the battery companies are unwilling to drop the battery price.
My point is that we should be focused on the outcomes we want. It isn't really important that fossil fuels are a lot more energy dense if the electric cars can travel twice as far. They can't, but I'd be willing to bet we will get to that point with fossil fuels still being more energy dense.
But also as I mentioned in the comment you relied to, Nio have a vast network of battery swap stations where you can get a full charge in a couple of minutes, the same as filling up at a gas station.
The price of EVs are a problem, and not the only problem, but my point was that the specific things mentioned don't stop us having better EVs than ICEs, because we will get the same outcome in a different way.
I absolutely agree that we should work on improving EVs, charging network and whatever technologies makes it better and more suitable for more people. But every person in need of a car has unique hard requirements for the car that can't be ignored as "inconvenience" - and many of those people have to drive with fossil fuels still.
Also, battery swap stations being available in X location doesn't matter to people living in Y location, nor should people in Y location buy EV in hopes that it will be better in Z years
I agree completely. I am not trying to argue that everyone can or should go out and buy an EV.
I was specifically addressing the points that seemed to be claiming EVs are not the right direction for cars or engines to be advancing towarda, by pointing out that the barriers aren't blocking all paths.
I honestly believe the person starting the thread was on the same wavelength, just pointing out the reason so many still choose ice
Are those two things actually important?
For some people? Absolutely.
Yes, somewhat.
Not as much, to most people, as most people think though.
Are those two things actually important?
yes, they are. they make difference between actually usable technology and engineer's dream.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
i doubt we even have enough rare metals for 8 or 16 billion batteries. most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
efficiency matters, it is not a question of how good single battery is.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I’m sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn’t matter.
oh good. YOU have it solved, so the rest of the world does not matter, i assume...? fuck all these people, right?
Hey mate I'm just here for some friendly discussion, I'm not here to argue until I'm blue in the face.
There is a difference between your above points and the original claim.
Fuel density doesn't matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn't matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
For your new point of rare earth materials, this isn't related to the original energy density or charge time points, but high density batteries that don't use rare earth metals already exist, the problem is cost. That will change over time.
Also you're ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground.
Fuel density doesn’t matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn’t matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
- they matter for the reason i explained. you are acting like we can simply build as much batteries as we want, which is not true
- and change them as conveniently as filling up the gas tank, which is also not true.
- and the whole "just swap the battery" concept leads to need of more batteries -> go to (1)
Also you’re ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground
i am not, i am not defending fossil fuel, i am just pointing out that the ev concept has problems that are not widely talked about.
just because some other strategy has problems doesn't mean your strategy is problem free.
most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
Has that ever stopped everyone, though?
On the one hand the Nokia 3310's battery lasts a week. On the other hand the iPhone 15....
Just plug your car in when you're not using it like you'd charge your phone overnight. It's only a problem if you can't charge at home (due to on street parking and no charging facilities on that street) and you can't charge somewhere you usually take your car (eg a workplace).
Nope,it's a problem in many other scenarios
If i ride to vacation to a country with no charging infrastucture, if I want to ride to the mountains where it is subzero and my range drops dramatically, if I go to a place where it's 38 deree celsius and I need AC my range is pretty much fucked up... (not to mention that close to remote places like cool beaches there is no charging station)
If I want to have a road trip... i suddenly becomes a planning issue
There are still so many things that are complicated by having a EV, and I don't need the extra complications
So you agree that we should heavily invest in building EV charging infrastructure?
We should slowly invest and push for transition, but the current status quo is for early adopters and enthusiasts IMO
And flood loads of valleys to create massive hydro power stations? Norway's low density gives it plentry of cheap renewable electricity (per person). In my country we have loads of people living in valleys, so we'd probably not get away with building that much hydro generation capacity.
Although there's a whole area called the "lake district" that is literally asking for it.
Dude....
Norway is incredibly sparsely populated and has an adoption rate of 80%+. We also have stupid cold winters, loads of fucking mountains and require AC in summer.
I've driven through Europe twice with no more than 2 minutes of planning in an app.Your comment makes me think you have no experience with EV's at all and are spreding false claims.
There are literally two scenarios where an EV is not better than ICE (if purchased new today).
One is for people frequently traveling far beyond the cars range and the other is for people without access to AC charging at all.
And no, I'm not a EV lover/gasoline hater. I ride a motorcycle powered by dinosaur juice too. I just like having 400+ BHP and 700 Nm of torque in a car priced like a Toyota Avensis, and a full tank every single time I leave my driveway with said full tank costing me <$5.
You should want that too unless you belong to one of the two exeption groups above.
My issue with EVs isn't the EV itself, it's that they're all smart cars. Granted, most new ICE cars are being overladen with bull shit too so I think I'm just stuck with cars from the 2010s.
That is a perfectly reasonable argument.
Is it because of costly repairs down the line or potentially being spied on you dislike?
Personally I quite enjoy the newer features for safety and usage, but I get wanting stuff that is simpler to wrench on.
Both tbh. I also just don't like the usability and looks of everything being a screen. I really hate digital dashboards. The newer cars feel like they were designed to be disposable like a smart phone, where long term use isn't a consideration.
I have seen some services that convert ICE cars to EV, so I may just do that when my engine needs replaced
The reason I single out the 2010s is because that's when I could get a touch screen with car play, but still have HVAC controls as a button and no digital dashboards.
I wonder if looking at the system as a whole for both systems would reveal a different difference. (infra needed to transport and fill those gas station tanks vs infra needed for level 3 charging stations)
If you don't drive for work--and I mean get paid to drive hundreds of miles every day, not just a long commute--or take a road trip every month, and have a place to charge at night (most people do, at least in North America), then an EV is just better.
Otherwise, a plug-in hybrid or a "gasoline boosted EV" like a Volt is sufficient. ICE cars for regular people shouldn't have even existed once the Volt proof of concept was proven!
PHEVs for the win.
