Uyghur "genocide" denial? Instaban. Gaza genocide denial? No probs buddy

BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Genuine question, just because there are some nazis in Ukraine, that justifies a military invasion? Should all countries with neo-nazis in them be invaded by others? Should Russia invade itself, as there are neo-nazis also within Russia? Do you think invasion, killing others, is a valid form of affecting change?
If you say yes to any of these, why are some invasions good (Russia->Ukraine) but other invasions are bad (US->wherever)?
What do you say about the 2013 Ukrainian revolution (Euromaidan), which goal was to topple a Russian-controlled corrupt government and give democratic power to the people? Why do you think the toppling of a Russian-controlled corrupt government wouldn't be a much more likely reason for the invasion of Ukraine? Doesn't it make much more sense that if Russia loses autocratic control over Ukraine through a people's revolution, and can't pay a corrupt government anymore to do what they want, they would try to regain that control through violence/annexation?
- Nazi is part of the problem.
  The Nazi Kiev regime attacked the ethnically Russian Donbass for eight years intending to commit genocide in their quest for an ethnically pure Ukraine and Russia finally came to their aid after it became clear that the Minsk agreements were never going to be honored. Also, NATO was turning Ukraine into a hyper militarized threat to the integrity and security of Russia itself. Refusal of the US and Europe to negotiate on a new inclusive security framework, refusal to stop NATO expansion eastward, and the relentless and violent anti-Russian psychosis that has gripped Ukraine since the Maidan coup that triggered a civil war in a country in which half or more of the population are essentially Russian became intolerable.
  https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1954733
  What do you say about the 2013 Ukrainian revolution (Euromaidan), which goal was to topple a Russian-controlled corrupt government and give democratic power to the people? Why do you think the toppling of a Russian-controlled corrupt government wouldn't be a much more likely reason for the invasion of Ukraine? Doesn't it make much more sense that if Russia loses autocratic control over Ukraine through a people's revolution, and can't pay a corrupt government anymore to do what they want, they would try to regain that control through violence/annexation?
  Why do you think the government formed from Euromaidan is legitimate when the people living there, Eastern Ukraine don't think so? In your word, they just traded a Russian-controlled corrupt government to a US-controlled corrupt government.
  
  I understand that there are people in Ukraine who are more aligned with Russia than EU. However, in democracies, which is a terrible form of government but still the best one we have, the majority wins. In 2013, the parliament of Ukraine overwhelmingly supported the European-Ukrainian association agreement, which is the democratically elected part of the government, and then the Yanukovich government suddenly decided, no, they're not going to honor this decision. That is clear corruption in Russian direction. I can't deny there might still be corruption in the government formed after Euromaidan, but it is very clear that in total, the majority of Ukraine supported this.
  It's kind of telling to me how you ignored the part about an invasion being a fine way to solve this problem. Shouldn't the people within a country solve their internal problems themselves? There was no military invasion by EU/US/NATO into Ukraine to bring it under their control. NATO militarization or membership looked very unlikely... Until the 2014 invasion of Crimea and now the 2022 invasion of the whole of Ukraine.
  There is a whole different level between trying to gain influence through trade agreements compared to trying to gain influence by military invasion. Sure, I completely concede that Western governments are trying to get influence over Ukraine. But why do these influence battles have to escalate into a war, don't you agree that no matter who influences/controls a country, normal people's lives are only going to get worse with a war than with peace? The invasions of the US to "help" all kinds of people (obviously not the real motivation) are rightfully condemned, why is this invasion any different? The thought of course is, after the war things should be better, but when had this ever been the case? During WW2, yes, but the problems in Ukraine were nowhere close to ethnic cleansing like was seen in the Nazi regime, in fact it is heavily disputed that there were any coordinated aggression against ethnic Russians at all. Only 3 months passed between Euromaidan and the Russian invasion of Crimea. There wasn't even enough time to properly form a government, nevermind starting a controlled persecution of ethnic Russians (if that even was a plan/possibility, which is highly disputed).
  Another thing, why didn't Russia stop with Donbas if it was only about "saving the Russians" in eastern Ukraine? Why did they go for Kiev immediately in 2022? It is quite clear that this current war was never (at least only) about saving "prosecuted Russians".
  
  Another thing, why didn't Russia stop with Donbas if it was only about "saving the Russians" in eastern Ukraine? Why did they go for Kiev immediately in 2022? It is quite clear that this current war was never (at least only) about saving "prosecuted Russians".
  They went for the head to make a quick peace negotiation. Not joining NATO is a big one in the deal and stop Azov from shelling Donbas/Donetsk. Peace deal fell apart thanks to Boris Johnson.
  Fears of peace talks with Putin rise amid US squabbling
  Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
  The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
  Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I'll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it's barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
  Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.

What do you believe to be the driving factor(s) that led to the current Russo-Ukranian conflict?

- wants to bring back his glorious USSR
  HAHAHAHA.
  
  So then what's your hot take?
  
  My 'hot' take is that your unsubstantiated assertion is contradicted by Putin's history. He was on the anti-communist side in the 90s, he has been against any sort of return to a planned economy throughout his terms, he has been in favour of stuff like monetisation of welfare, etc.
  It's extremely silly to assert that he wants to 'bring back his glorious USSR' when his actions directly contradict that.
  
  If you want to trust a career liar, then that's on you
  
  Haha. So, you expect him to suddenly do a 180 and completely change his policies and selection of allies?
  
  We analyze people by their actions, not their words.
  
  Are you implying that his every action in the past 30 years has been a ruse? By that standard he is actually a Ukrainian nationalist and has been working towards hurtling Russia into a nuclear war to avenge Petliura. What that is contradicted by his actions? Wow you trust a career liar?
  
  I never did. Notably, I never cared about his words.
  
  how is he lying about his actions? you are genuinely very stupid
  
  You're believing the US media about him, and they're the biggest career liars on earth. Saddam Hussein's People Shredder, anyone?
  You people are so lobotomized by Good Guy Bad Guy Marvel slop, it's embarassing
  
  if the Bad Man is a Liar I can make up whatever I want
  
  jarringly incoherent NPC reply
  
  He is a liar. He lied about being a communist so he could infiltrate the KGB and use his position for his own personal gain.
  
  Notice how all the analysis thenother person did was about the actions he's taken and not the things he's said because everybody here not only knows he's a liar but knows that actions speak louder than words.
  You're the one confusing words and actions, right from the get go when you said "let's do an expirement" and then made a completely uncontroversial statement.
  Liberals are literally incapable of material analysis, they literally just make decisions based on what propoganda was presented to them most recently.
- The liberal anti-communist wants to restore worker power and internationalism? The multi-billionaire that only pays lip service to communist aesthetics to maintain support among the older nostalgic generations wants to abdicate power to a system of democratic centralism?
  
  They're so cooked, they conjure new realities that came to them in a dream and believe that dream to itself be reality.
  
  I bet you're great at math
  
  Try calculating how many people the soviets liberated.
  
  I get paid to do it, so at least some people believe so.
  Why didn't you answer my other questions, you're replying to my replies for other people, but not the ones directed at you?
  
  It really doesn't cause a little itch in the back of your head to ignore the dozens of good faith replies you keep getting to make these shitlib reddit comments instead.
  Do you legitimately consider yourself to be an honest and serious person?
  
  Putin wanted to be a western lapdog so bad he even asked to join NATO and helped the Americans wage the War on Terror. The West didn't accept that, because they wanted every non-western country to be absolutely subservient and exploitable.
- He was KGB in the USSR and wants to bring back his glorious USSR and take back every inch of land that belonged to the USSR
  You are a deeply unserious person
  
  Ok then what's your take?
  
  I more or less agree with what others here have been telling you.
  
  K. Thanks
- You are trolling right? Dear god tell me you are a troll. Putin hates Communism, he blamed the war on the USSR giving autonomy to Ukraine in the first place. If you want to say he is a Tsarist that would be dumb but closer to the truth. This is just pure brainrot. Motherfucker was part of what was called the Yeltsin Family, the clique of capitalists selling out the USSR to the west. Why would he destroy the USSR only to weakly try to bring back small portions of its territory decades later?
  You have no coherence, you have only knee-jerk responses based on regurgitated ideology
- Sorry to spam you with replies but, while it is true that he's an irredentist, the idea that he has loyalty to the actual USSR when he is one of the people who helped kill it is completely ridiculous. He is not a communist and makes no secret of that fact.
- Do you have any evidence of Putin wishing to reinstate the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Why is Putin moving in a Capitalist direction, rather than Socialist? Why is the conflict specifically centered around regions of Ukraine, not the entirety, and why Ukraine specifically?
  Do you believe history to be decided by Great Men, or by Material Conditions?
- this couldn't be more embarrassing to witness if you had just publicly shit yourself.
  
  hilarious layers here because Butcher Biden shit himself publicly and said Putin wants to restore the USSR!
- You're a child
  
  Most likely. I think you can do better insults than that though
- He and his party are the liberals who carried out a coup and then formally dissolved the USSR against the wishes of the public, then spent the next twenty years eagerly collaborating with the US, sucking up to the US, and being propped up by the US. Even now he's just a sad old liberal trailing after the American far right and implementing American style reactionary laws in the hopes that they'll finally accept him, even with the ongoing war to keep American nukes from being parked a stone's throw away from Moscow.
- Credit where credit is due: at least you deleted this fucking insane comment.

New slop for the hogs! Get it while it's still warm!

I don't think you're pig slop. You should think better of yourself
- If you're going to go "no u" I'm going to go PPB.
  
  Sorry, but that Pic has been used on me already. Please pick a different one
  
  I was just about to post that.
- No I'm the pig

To actually answer your experiment: the war in Ukraine is an imperialist war between capitalist Russia and a proxy of the capitalist west (mainly US through NATO influence). Russia is on a scary and dangerous trend towards fascism, and I have loved ones directly suffering the consequences of this.

Edit: not just Russia, to be fair. France, Germany, the US (just to name a few western countries) are clearly on a similar and equally worrying trend. And nobody seems to care when other eastern European countries such as Poland literally ban communist parties (as a good fascist would do), and have people in congress using fire extinguishers against jewish symbols during Hannukah.

Anyone who had a look at Lenin's "Imperialism: highest stage of capitalism" and took it seriously, knew that there would be war in Europe as soon as they realized that the means of production of the former USSR were auctioned in a corrupt fashion, and their structure of ownership went not to western hands, but to national interests that collide with those of the US. Since that moment, it was just a matter of time that there would be conflict.

Wow, materialist analysis of a conflict, instead of simplistic "Putin bad" or "NATO bad"? (both of these statements being true). Now, what do you answer?

You're going at it wrong
You need to add some Marvel references and throw in some hamburger analogies so the drone-like WASPs posting this shit can understand
What I don't understand about Russia is, if they're capitalist then why don't they engage in imperialism? The capitalists there have the same interests as capitalists everywhere. Why weren't they folded into the hegemony they way capitalists of Europe were?
- As we all know here, I am very stupid
  but I'll give this a shot based on my current understanding.
  The USSR was not Imperialist, so when it was sliced up and sold to nationalist Capitalists, there were no readily available colonies to exploit, and Western Powers had already divied up the Global South amongst themselves. With little international exploitation, the Russian Bourgeoisie is Nationalist in character, exploiting their internal proletariat. Meanwhile, Western Powers seek the industrial base of Russia, causing constant conflict.
  Russia therefore aligns with BRICS after failing to join NATO and take their "share" of Imperialist super-profits. They tried, and were rejected!
  
  I appreciate the response. I need to probably read more about the topic
  
  Same here, hence the preface, but I did feel comfortable enough in said analysis to post my reply.
  
  I think you could also describe Russian foreign policy in the Middle East (namely Syria) as "adventurism." AFAIK they're still occupying parts of Syria with no real exit strategy. While this was done at the request of Syria's government in order to combat ISIS, Putin hasn't let the opportunity pass him by to build oil pipelines and whatnot.
  Russia has always been called "the sick old man of Europe" for a reason.
  
  I wouldn't say "Always"
  The first popular usage of the phrase was Tsar Nicholas I calling the Ottoman Empire the sick man in the 1800's, and it was ascribed to alot of nations by alot of nations after WWII.
  
  Nowadays Europe is the sick man of Europe.
I dont think the war in ukraine is an inter imperialist war, it is an anticolonial war started by the national bourgeoisie
Losurdo (2017):
The risk of a great war remains as a result of the efforts, on the part of the United States, to stop anti-colonial revolutions, and to construct a new colonial counter-revolution. The US stands opposed China, but we can also consider here the position of Russia. In my books I insist on a point which is perhaps neglected: the history of Russia in general — not just of Soviet Russia, but of Russia in general — is, on the one hand, the history of an imperial and expansionist power, but there is another aspect to this historical reality: Russia has been at risk of becoming a colony for a very long time. We all know about the invasions by Hitler, by Napoleon, by Charles XII, by the Mongols. For example, if we remit ourselves back to the beginning of the 17th century, it was the Polish who exercised power in Moscow. Immediately after World War I — after the defeat of Tsarist Russia — Russia was in danger of being balkanized, of becoming a colony. Here I quote Stalin, who said that the West saw Russia like they saw Central Africa, that they were trying to drag it into war for the sake of Western capitalism and imperialism. [2]
The end of the Cold War, with the West and the United States triumphant, once again put Russia at risk of becoming a colony. Massive privatization was not only a betrayal of the working classes of the Soviet Union and Russia, it was also a betrayal of the Russian nation itself. The West was trying to take over Russia’s massive energy deposits, and the US came very close to acquiring them. Here Yeltsin played the role of “great champion” for the Western colonization effort. Putin is not a communist, that much is clear, but he wants to stop this colonization, and seeks to reassert Russian power over its energy resources.
https://redsails.org/losurdo-and-opera/
- Ok, now your turn on the experiment. Is there an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Is there an ongoing genocide against Uyghur in Xinjiang?
  
  The US’s “Uyghur genocide” (“cultural” or otherwise) disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
  The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
  The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
  Uyghur genocide allegations
  US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
  A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
  The blueprint of regime change operations
  We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
  Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
  The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
  Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
  Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
  Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
  Credit to @davel@lemmygrad.ml
  
  The World Uyghur Congress also supports
  's genocide against Palestine so there's that also
  
  Ok, why yes and yes? Where is the evidence that there's an ongoing genocide in China? Please, as I said in the original post in .world, provide any evidence from 2022 onwards.
  
  First link is paywalled, seems to be an interview talking explicitly about what I'm saying: the concerns for genocide have gone down in the last years, likely due to the lack of evidence of the continuation of the claims that Adrian Zenz made some half decade ago. The interviewee seems to be a member of a US government institution (idk I'm not USian), and since the article is paywalled, i can't see any study or any new information on what's going on in Xinjiang.
  Second link is simply a link to a debate? Like, it claims without providing any sources or citing any study, that millions of Uyghur are experiencing atrocities. How's that evidence?
  Third link quite clearly says "2021", both on the URL and on the article as you open it.
  Can you please, bring any new, sourced information, from 2022 onwards, of the current situation of the "Uyghur genocide" in Xinjiang?
  
  https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/chinese-genocide-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-continues
  https://thediplomat.com/2024/04/erasing-memories-concealing-evidence-chinas-efforts-to-obscure-the-uyghur-genocide/
  https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/
  https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/9/14/23351153/china-uyghur-muslim-genocide-xinjiang-united-nations
  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/china-is-committing-a-genocide-why-was-our-foreign-office-planning-to-meet-one-of-the-perpetrators
  None of these should have a paywall except The Guardian which I was able to just "X" out of
  
  Ok, I've read through everything you've sent me, and I gotta say, sorry mate but you haven't read any of this. I'm tired of reading articles with claims of genocide but no material evidence of absolutely anything post-2021. It's obvious to me that you're just googling for whatever articles with the headline you want, from 2022 onwards, to support your preconceived notion. I hope you will analyze your position, feel free to read all the articles you've sent me, and go through whichever sources they provide (when they do). I'll sum up what I've found
  First link: reverse image search using "tineye" from the cover picture shows "Adobe stock picture, 2019". No mention of new information after 2021 in the whole article.
  Second link: the gist of what it says (I'm not quoting literally) is "the ongoing genocide is when you forget about the genocide that did happen according to us". The article shows the WSJ 2019 article that proved reeducation centers were already closed by then. The only post-2021 claim it sources, is that "Uyghur textbooks have been forbidden". Source: Radio Free Asia, 2017. Feel free to look up what "Radio Free Asia" is if you don't know it.
  Third link: quote "More than 100,000 Uyghurs are working under conditions that strongly suggest forced labor." Source: none. This claim is pre-covid as I remember (it mentions the cotton fields), never been substantiated. "In February 2024 the Chinese government further expanded regulations to restrict freedom of religion in the Uyghur Region, including through bolstering local surveillance powers and tightening control over religious education and places of worship." Again, unsourced information, just general claims about "tightening control" without any actual evidence. The same claim could be made, for example, about the Spanish government in Catalonia, and I guess nobody here claims genocide is happening there (I say this because I'm Spanish myself).
  Fourth link, and I quote: "And now, finally, the United Nations has published a report. A report that says China’s policies “may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.” A report that adds nothing new to what we already knew about the crisis, that neglects to call the crisis what it is — genocide — ". No sources of any abuses post-2021 being used, and it quotes the UN report that clearly doesn't state the word "genocide".
  Fifth link: no mention to any events post 2021. Few interviews of unsourced and outdated anecdotal claims.
  Sorry, but I'm exhausted after this pointless exercise. I learnt nothing new, because there is nothing new. I hope you did learn something on the other hand: if I deny the Uyghur genocide, is because there's no substantial evidence to support it.
  
  I did learn something. You have a movable goal post. On that note, I'm out. Peace be with you
  
  CW: mentions of SA
  Just... that first link alone. Jesus Christ.
  The Chinese government's family planning program restricts Uyghur and Turkic Muslim reproduction, preventing births in violation of Article 2d of the Genocide Convention. According to Adrian Zenz, between 2015 and 2018, East Turkistan's Uyghur population growth rate fell by 84%. State-sponsored forced inter-racial marriages between Uyghur women and Han Chinese men are part of "family planning" policies, as are female sterilizations, forced abortions, mass rapes, and sexual torture. The CCP forces Uyghur women to live with Han Chinese men in Uyghur homes. The CCP forcibly removes Uyghur children from their homes and places them in residential schools where they are forbidden to speak the Uyghur language, a violation of Genocide Convention Article 2e.
  This is what the justification this "Genocide Watch" dot com uses to deem there to be an active genocide. Let's just address these
  The writer was too lazy to actually tell you who the fuck Adrian Zenz is. He believes the Abrahamic God came to him in a dream to tell him to "destroy the CCP". I am not joking. He authored a book called Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. Here's 2 quotes from that book:
  "Through notions of gender equality...the enemy is undermining God’s unique but different role assignments for men and women"
  "... anti-discrimination laws put in place throughout the European Union ... forbid employers to discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation. That way, it becomes illegal for churches or Christian organizations to refuse to hire homosexuals into important positions"
  Moreover, this guy has not been to China since 2010, doesn't speak Chinese or Uyghur, and is employed by US funded conservative think tank called "The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation". This unhinged homophobic lunatic is the source for "East Turkistan's Uyghur population GROWTH RATE fell by 84%". This in itself is misleading, since Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, and their population is GROWING, but the RATE of growth has fallen. As with basically every other demographic in China, as things tend to happen as countries transition from developing to developed. But, this article takes it as fact. This is the due diligence this website has but lets hope it gets better from here. Xinjiang's growth rate fell to 6%, which sounds low but the Chinese national average is 3.8%
  Second hyperlink to UHRP, which addresses "forced marriage" then goes on with the quote
  "In an official document issued by the Kashgar City Civil Affairs Bureau and provided to UHRP by scholar Adrian Zenz, there is a line item for 20,000 yuan (US $2,811) for ethnic intermarriage awards (民汉通婚奖励 – minhan tonghun jiangli) for the fiscal year 2018."
  It's disguised as a second reputable source, but in fact is actually a second (biased) website that's quoting the aforementioned Adrian Zenz. Whom, once again, has not been in China since 2010. Said article hides in Footnote 5 in the Introduction section this little gem: "We use “coerced” and “forced” interchangeably to describe situations in which a person or persons are subjected to force, duress, or threats by a more powerful person or entity in order to compel the weaker party Uyghur-Han intermarriage has been increasing since 2018 due to state promotion of intermarriage"
  So, the local government, in the name of promoting social cohesion and unity at a time of racial tension and unrest, provides a one time stimulus for newlyweds of interracial couples, and parades them on TV, which is taken as government sponsorship (sure, I agree with this classification). But Zenz then spins it to "coercion". Oof, big stretch. Then UHRP replaces it with the word "FORCED", because it's a synonym? And then your genocidewatch.com takes it as "mass rape" because forced marriages would imply mass rape if the evidence wasn't, you know, a one time wedding gift.
  Alright, 3rd hyperlink to USF on forced sterilization by Rukiye Turdush. Well, according to her own words, she left China in the 90's, what is her source of information of mass steril-
  "Uyghur women are made to undergo gynecological examinations and forced to take birth control medication, have IUDs inserted, or be sterilized, both in the concentration camps as well as outside the camps. Adrian Zenz’s research on Chinese documents and statistical data8 on birth rates in 2019 reveals that 97 percent of women of child-bearing age in Kashgar and Hotan city in southern East Turkistan could not or would not get pregnant and deliver a child."
  It's just Adrian Zenz again. Your 3rd link is a 3rd article written by someone else on a different platform that goes back to Adrian Zenz. And it links to the article where he "mistakes" a comma and a full stop in an official document and subsequently claims 87% of IUDs in China were installed in Xinjiang (the real number is 8.7%).
  The 4th link goes to The Diplomat whose first sentence wildly claims 1,000,000 Han Chinese government officials are being sent to live with Uyghur women in Xinjiang. Lets stop for a moment. Disregard the assumption that the CCP just has a million single men willing to uproot their lives and move to Xinjiang on payroll. The total population of Xinjiang is 25,000,000. The Uyghur population is 12,000,000. Let's assume half of them are women, so 6,000,000. This is an absurd action logically, let alone logistically. What is their source on th- oh it links back to the UHRP article that paraphrases Adrian Zenz.
  It once again is recycling Adrian Zenz, this time twice removed instead of once. Ok.
  And the last link to GJIA, surely this time it'll be different. It's authored by Rushan Abbas, let's do a quick Google- "Abbas worked as a contractor for the U.S. military interpreting interrogations of Uyghur detainees at Guantanamo Bay through 2002." ok, the author is complicit in war crimes at Gitmo. But maybe she has something of value to say, let's read the article itself. Well, the first link there goes to indiatimes.com... to an interview with Rushan Abbas. Whom amongst us hasn't cited ourselves. Lets see what source she has for forcibly removing children. Taiwan News. Oh boy they're sure to be impartial regarding China, let's see wha-
  "International experts, including German China scholar Adrian Zenz, believe the schools are being established to indoctrinate the Uyghur children with pro-CCP views."
  It's Zenz again. It's always Zenz. It's just one guy. This is easier than getting to Hitler's page from a random Wikipedia article. Zenz claims there's 500,000 children in detention, Taiwannews reports on it, and a war criminal and former US military employee (but I repeat myself) takes that as scripture and says it's undeniable proof China is committing genocide, and genocidewatch.com takes it as proof.
  
  Google search: "literally typing the sentence I want to prove" Copy and Paste every link without reading them
  
  The claims of genocide against Uyghurs originated from
  and have been supported by
  
  since and rejected by most rest of the world.
  
  also committed a genocide in Namibia and killed up to as many as 150,000 people over a century ago. The mechanisms and media was also used as a "blueprint" for the Holocaust/Final Solution.
  Fast forward to the present,
  starts wailing at Namibia for establishing closer ties with China and the then-president Habe Geingob very openly accusing
  of
  , stating that China never belittles or infantilises them. Of course, Namibia (and South Africa) obviously rejects the claims of genocide against Uyghurs.
  
  starts yet another extermination campaign against Palestine, with very clear goals of a Final Solution.
  in response, starts sending hundreds of millions of Euros in aid to
  . Worth noting that
  also supports the Uyghur genocide claims with the words "Free Uyghurs" written on the bombs being launched at apartment towers, hospitals, mosques and UN schools.
  So South Africa finally takes the violent Nazi brat
  to court and
  immediately goes into
  , screaming at South Africa while Namibia tells the
  Olaf SSchwanz to sit down.
  Meanwhile, China is not starving or bombing the Uyghurs, nor have they been forced into an extermination camp the size of municipal Johannesburg. Life expectancy, literacy rates, incomes, education have all increased. Homes now all have electricity, hot water and working toilets, there's widespread access to primary and higher education, medical treatment and is now united with the rest of China by high-speed rail. Infant mortality and crime has dropped significantly. There has not been a terror attack in nearly a decade and the desperation fueled by poverty is no longer present. Xinjiang is also now a highly important hub for mechanised agriculture and industry. The Belt and Road runs through it and in recent times, large quantities of lithium, oil and other valuable minerals have been found in the province. Uyghur culture is also frequently promoted on Chinese media and tourism both domestic and foreign, has grown. Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship. China has also finally supported South Africa's case in the ICJ.
  Hope that clears it up for you. If not, then
  
  Death to America
  
  Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship.
  Did they not have Chinese citizenship before? That's the only part of your comment I found surprising.
  
  I think they just mean in contrast to Israel's policies on Palestinians in the lands it settles.
  
  They always had Chinese citizenship.
  Added that because a common redditor talking point is throwing the "settler-colonization" accusation in the mix
- Idk why you libs come here an act so smugly superior when you have nothing of substance to retort are arguments with, you just declare their apparent superiority of your opinions and scold us for not realizing their self-evident correctness.
  
  Seriously they're fucking children.
  "Oh yea, well what's your take?"
  several paragraphs of analysis with historical context and a focus on concrete actions taken by both sides without relying on political statements
  "uhhhhhh nuh uh"
  They're just as fucking stupid as chuds except that chuds know they're being stupid on purpose to annoy you, libs are dumber than dogshit while also being a smug asshole and infantilizing you.
  
  I have a give and take relationship with people on the internet.
  Yeah "nothing then" is giving to the detailed reply you received
  
  "Respect me while I act like a smug dipshit"
  Lol, no. You started acting like a child, and strangers online who know better than you are under no obligation to wipe your stupid ass for you. Read a single book or stop your whining, loser.

- Such a fucking redditor jesus christ. Why even come to Lemmy at that point? Just stay on reddit
  
  They're literally the
  emoji
  
  I am whatever you say I am
  
  please be a corpse
  
  You really like to throw "go back to reddit" around a lot. It's getting borderline unoriginal
  
  No one is saying it to be clever; they mean it in a very literal and practical way because they see you as belonging on Reddit.
  
  Life must be hard for these guys who just can't imagine a second reason to say something other than as a performance for updoots
  
  👍 Thanks GarbageShoot
  
  First time I'm saying that to a non-LW user.
  You get that alot ig? I can see why.
  
  "If you want capitalist propaganda you can go back to reddit lol"
  Fair that it only happened twice, but weird that it happened twice
  
  Yeah I can really see why you get that alot
  
  Because I'm a smartass to people who go out of their way to try and insult me? Yeah... I'm the problem
  
  To be a smartass, one would have to be at least a little bit smart. You don't satisfy that criterion.
  
  They are an ass though,you have to give them that
  
  Because I'm a smartass
  Well that's definitely true
  
  Thank you for the compliment
  
  You really like to throw "go back to reddit" around a lot. It's getting borderline unoriginal
  Yeah cuz this is so goddamn original
  Let's do an experiment. Russia had no business attacking Ukraine
  
  Never said it was original. Good effort though
  
  Little weird to criticize others for unoriginality when you lack it so much yourself
  
  Lol. Guess I can get a little hypocritical myself sometimes. Isn't it weird how that works?
  
  It's not weird at all, you're a liberal, nobody expected you not to be a hypocrite, but we still have contempt for you for it
  
  Assumption is the word of the day I guess

LMFAO Liberal Einstein here,doing "experiments"

Also,"the" Ukraine? Madonn!

Changed it for you. And I knew someone was going to go for the bait. Remember, this is an international forum and we need to conduct ourselves appropriately.
Also Einstein was a genius, so it's not much of an insult to get compared to him. Kind of flattered honestly
- Also Einstein was a genius
  I'm shocked that no one has taken this low-hanging fruit yet: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
  
  I was thinking of mentioning that,but it will probably fly over their head like a Hezbollah rocket over an Israeli settlement
  
  So just so we're on the same page, what was your point in providing this article?
  
  I just thought an Einstein fan might be interested in reading his thoughts on communism, and Hexbear would be the place where people point it out as a board of communists who have a shortlist of articles that they reflexively post (Ask someone about brainwashing next). It has no bearing on the alleged uyghur genocide stuff.
  
  in
  
  it's for you to not read, just ilke you won't read https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
  and then keep flapping your ignorant mouth repeating the same embarrassing lies that get broadcast on TV as if we haven't heard them. then we bring up easily verifiable facts and information you've never heard in mass media, and you ignore it because you're a spoiled western chauvinist who just wants the treats to keep flowing
- He was being sarcastic you dingus
  
  Hey be nice, it's an international forum lol
  
  Funny how the mind of the western barbars can't comprehend that this place isn't another internet space dominated by the American monoculture
  
  I'm not the one throwing shit at everyone in the thread in order to make terrible actions by a country look better
  
  I'm only throwing shit at you, you crybaby
  
  Something something rubber and glue. I don't know. This deserves low effort
  
  You are the only one getting shit thrown at you. This isn't a struggle session, it's not a flame war. It's all of us against just you. Because you're wrong and are annoying about it This is the forum equivalent of being brought into town square so people can throw rotten food at you.
  
  Oh sorry. Context is difficult with just text. Let me retry. "Oh no! Sarcasm! My only weakness. I've been defeated!"
  
  If I had to guess I would say all social interaction is your weakness
- Oho,I admit,I'm flattered you decided to take time out of your day to look through my posting history to dunk on me
  Credit where credit is due
  Now,with all due respect,you can fuck off with that smug attitude you westoid fuck
  The gall of these smug little reddiors is astounding
  Seeing as you saw fit to look through my comments,I think you might have seen that I literally live next to "the" Ukraine
  I saw the Russians drone strike cities from my own house and I still think uwu smol bean Ukraine should lose this war on account of the being a puppet of the NATO reich and because they have become a Mecca for nazis of all stripes
  I hate NATO,I hate Ukraine and I despise Israel
  The fascist world order will collapse and you smarmy little fucks can do nothing about it, except piss yourselves on the internet and epically bait and pwn le evil commies
  
  Yup. I'm smug and you're a hypocrite who is ok with innocent Ukrainian civilians getting killed by an invasion force that has no business being there. Think about that. You want civilians to die for world politics
  
  You want civilians to die for world politics
  You say this like "politics" is some nebulous, worthless thing. People typically want wars that are disruptive of the status quo because they view it as the only way to change systems in which, e.g., a much greater number of civilians live under brutal oppression, as their grandparents did and their grandchildren will if the state machinery is not smashed. You're like the people who bemoan the Haitian Revolution because some white families died with no concern for the fact that it was a slave state and the revolution stopped, it cannot be stressed enough, the continuous, literal chattel enslavement of an entire country's worth of people.
  THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
  -- Mark Twain on France's "Reign of Terror"
  
  The implication that there are premature deaths that are not in some way political is also silly.
  
  Who's being enslaved in Ukraine? It's not comparable
  
  Notice I also brought up France, where people were not chattel slaves but living in oppression and fought a revolution that conservatives still have not forgiven them for.
  So the question is "What humanitarian issues are you saying would actually get better by Russia invading?" And my answer is that the Euromaidan coup government was culturally repressing the better part of eastern Ukraine, which was the material basis for their revolting against the Ukrainian government, which resulted in an eight year war of the slaughtering of civilians and journalists in the east with indiscriminate bombing and shooting. Russia's victory over Ukraine is the best chance they have to live without cultural repression or slaughter.
  
  Quick question,do you support Hamas?
  
  Yes.
  
  Nope. I don't understand why people think that one side needs to be right
  
  It's less about being "right" and more about which side is conducting a settler colonial genocide
  
  Israel. However hamas abducted 251 people and 97 are still unaccounted for. Two wrongs don't make a right
  
  Someone shoots you in the chest and kills your entire immediate family
  You try to punch them in response
  "Two wrongs don't make a right!"
  Add in a pinch of
  and a dash of
  and voilá,you have the average liberal!
  
  However hamas abducted 251 people and 97 are still unaccounted for
  It's notable that you think that the victims of a genocide should have no bargaining chips to negotiate with.
  EDIT: Also,
  Two wrongs don't make a right
  You are very willing to excuse stuff like the Ukrainian military attacking civilian targets and using civilian facilities to stage military activities. For some reason, it's only non-white people whom you apply these standards to.
  
  No I'm not. Just haven't talked about it yet. You got the numbers because I'm having trouble finding any
  
  I have a give and take relationship with people on the internet.
  This is toddler logic. You have to use violent tactics to resist genocide, it inherently involves committing "wrongs".
  
  You're right. It's such easy logic that a toddler can understand it. What's your problem?
  
  What actions do you recommend victims of genocide take to overthrow their century-long oppressors?
  
  Win the debate in the marketplace of ideas
  
  If I had that answer, I wouldn't be renting an apartment
  
  "Roll over and die"
  oppa gandhi style
  
  Haha. That's your takeaway?
  
  More Palestinians were dead by October 8th, and the number since then has increased by two to three orders of magnitude.
  The people abducted were mostly military, and some elderly hostages were released very quickly on account of their age. Hamas takes pretty good care of the, it must be stressed, captives taken in a military conflict, while Israel has mostly been fine with slaughtering them in indiscriminate bombing in classic Hannibal Directive fashion.
  This is all ignoring that, outside of children (whose parents are to be blamed), there really aren't civilians on the border with Gaza, as the "civilians" are still part of the enactment of Israel's lebensraum.
  
  Two wrongs don't make a right
  Have you considered a much more urgent and pressing matter is that ISISrael has a city-state the size of municipal Johannesburg under siege; has destroyed every mosque, university, hospital, school, UN office, several diplomatic offices, the civil registry, water treatment plant, all farmland, media office, the Court of Justice, cemeteries, most high-rise buildings, effectively banned food and water, etc. At least 50,000 (likely even in the several hundred thousands) have been massacred, with priority targets being UN workers, humanitarian aid, civil rescue/defense, paramedics, professors, doctors and journalists. Several hostages have also been killed. Deaths of Hamas fighters in contrast, have been largely incidental. All of this also recorded live on the free iPhone 15 Pro Max the Nazi soldiers are given.
  Hamas was also ready to negotiate the total release of all hostages in exchange for a permanent end to hostilities literally as early as 9 October.
  Take a wild guess as to why South Africa for instance, no longer has an active underground resistance.
  7 October had maybe, a marginal effect on the already violent Nazi sentiments of ISISrael and it's supporters.
  
  Doctor RomCom diagnoses you with a classic case of
  
  Haha. Really reaching now aren't ya?
  
  Not at all
  Holsum slobber Ukraini Azov nazis ethnically cleansing Russians: They are only defending their country from the eeeevil! invasion of Putler, you tankie! Innocent civilians are dying!
  Hamas heroically fighting the Zionazi entity:
  
  you're a hypocrite who is ok with innocent Ukrainian civilians getting killed by an invasion force
  You are literally okay with things like your genocide of Palestinians, your atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc., colonialism in general.
  
  And now you're just assuming. You got anything of substance to say or are we just going to keep doing this dance?
  
  And now you're just assuming
  Quick question,do you support Hamas?
  Nope. I don't understand why people think that one side needs to be right
  You have admitted that you do not support a resistance to a genocide, and you don't understand why resistance to a genocide is just.
  But hey, sure, let's hear how much you don't support the rest of the things that I listed, despite uncritically regurgitating your empire's propaganda (even though your empire has admitted to having no evidence to support it).
  
  Then show me the evidence saying otherwise
  
  Show what 'otherwise'?
  Is pretty obvious that you just uncritically trust your empire's career liars, and are unable to admit that you support a genocidal empire.
  
  Haha. You know what happens when you assume
- You literally argue like a 13 year old. Calling people Einstein sarcastically isn't new, it goes at least as fat back as 1997 when a talking bird used it that way in star fox 64 and I understood the phrase and what it meant at age 6. By pretending what is clearly sarcasm is a genuine comparison between you and Einstein is patently absurd and you aren't making yourself come off as at all clever, it comes off as a desperate child who knows he's losing and has decided that being obstinate is a replacement for wit, rhetoric or a basic understanding of the topic. You're infantile.

Obomba had no business overthrowing the democratically elected Viktor Yakunovich

had no business being nazi fucks murdering their own people and working for

to provoke Russia

Okay.

That's just objectively wrong tho

They're handling decades worth of unfinished business right now

That's a statement not an experiment

oppa gangnam style

WHAT ABOUT ISM MUCH???!!!!??!111?!?1;1!?;1!1?1!1!11?1?1?!1!1?1?1?1!1!!1!1!1?1?1??1!1!1!11!?1?1!1?1?1

So now you like ethnic cleansing?

this post has remained up for well over 24 hours, and you have received an number of good faith responses to your statement and follow up queries - responses which demonstrate more effort and thought than your replies, to be honest.

has your hypothesis been proven?

You’re completely correct.

However, the West had no business provoking a land war in Europe.

Can you agree with that as well?