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SamboT @lemmy.world

Where do we really stand on supporting reddit migration? We want to get people off corporate social media right?

Whenever barrier to entry is discussed for lemmy, and reducing confusion for different servers is brought up, all of the isolationist comments come out of the woodwork.

Apparently redditors who are too dumb to register should stay on reddit?

We have a platform that seems to be working and slowly growing. Shouldnt we want good defaults in place to give the best possible experience with minimal user effort?

112 comments

  • This is probably in response to the thread here.

    I know I said something that may be taken this way, and I stand by it so I'll repeat it here:

    There was something in retail I learned. There are people who will come in on sale days, and they will demand perfect customer service, and demand the lowest prices, and ask for more sales and bring coupons, all while talking about how they spend so much money there and that they’re so loyal. Then they’ll leave and you’ll never see them again

    You can spend time and effort with them, the ones who only care about the cheapest place, or you can spend time with the customers who are actually there regularly. The ones who get to know your names, who are loyal, or enjoy a sale sure but also will be there even when there isn’t one.

    I don’t want to attract users simply because reddit bad, and cater our experience for people who can’t bother to learn just the basic tenant of the fediverse. I want to cater our experiences for those who are here daily, and the ones who are genuinely interested. It’s the longer slower approach, but we’ll stay more true to our goals

    I'm not afraid of saying that yes, that is my opinion. I've helped a lot of people migrate here away from Reddit, and I also hold the opinion that sign up is a bit daunting for users - but it's not impossible and it's gotten much easier than it was even just a few years ago.

    What I see more often from people dipping their toes into the fediverse is constant complaining and whining. I've been through... 5-6 waves of new reddimigrants, and each time there are a quiet majority who pick up the fediverse and start running with it, and I've chatted with a good many of them. However, there's also a major chunk of people who immediately start complaining. There isn't feature parity, it's more confusing, it's less stable, why can't it do video - all of which have been answered a thousand times and are constantly improving.

    To me it's exactly like the people shopping for sales. They come in, demand the absolute best service, complain that their niche communities aren't thriving, and refuse to even stick around for a week to see what it's like. If they aren't willing to even do the bare minimum of finding out "What is an instance?" then they're not going to stick around when we tell them that none of us can afford to host video, or that we will never have stability like Reddit, or this, or that. So I say let them leave. We came here to the fediverse because we want to build something different, and we know there are shortcomings that come with it.

    If people want to join earnestly and help us build something here, curate small communities that we can be proud of, then I welcome them with open arms. If they can't even bother to read the first two sentences on the joinlemmy page, well, you make your own success there.

    • I’ll never understand people who knowingly come to a currently bare-bones community (said with love!) and then complain that it’s bare-bones, and not bother to engage and help it grow.

      Like no shit it’s nowhere near as huge as Reddit. Guess how content and engagement happen? By posting content and engaging! Ugh. /rant

      • I've quickly realized that many of them are people who wouldn't participate anyway, they just want constant content for free and will never post or add to the conversation.

        It's well known that here on the fediverse there's a much larger percentage of people who participate vs those on Reddit. We really do make our own way here. For others, they have to be willing to put in even just a little effort

    • Ever since I read this blog post, The Indie Web for Everyone, I can't stop thinking about this quote when thinking about fediverse:

      It’s like everyone has spent the last few years in a giant all-inclusive resort, screaming at each other for attention at the buffet. Now we’re moving into nice little bed-and-breakfast places, but we’re complaining because it takes slightly more effort to book a room, and the free WIFI isn’t as fast. Maybe its time to rethink some of these expectations. Maybe we need some of that early internet vibe back and be ok with smaller, closer communities. Maybe we can even get some of the fun back and start exploring again, instead of expecting everything to be automatically delivered to us in real time.

      I think you are right, as much as fediverse is an alternative to the current social media, by its design it requires a completely different culture than how the general public has became used to interacting with the web - as a commodity.

      • This is amazing honestly, and should be repeated whenever someone comes in saying it's not as great. It hits the nail on the head.

  • This isn't a lemmy only thing.

    Seen this since the 90's and the start of Eternal September. 'How dare we change or help these constant Lusers show up. How DARE we allow for differing opinions. Our way is the ONLY right way! Why should we allow this CANCER to infect us?'

    To further emphasize that point: I'm part of a tilde community. I have been working on a migration document highlighting services and other options for social media migrants. The local newsgroup is sparcely populated. So the one technical guy that's a frequent poster had this to say:

    I think these followers and likes counters' places unleash the wrong attitude. People write stuff to collect these by pleasing the potential reader instead of writing just facts. Fights over points and factually wrong answers that gained a lot of up-votes drove me away from reddit and SE. Some even write BS and get terribly upset if you point them to a man page that contradicts their statements.

    Communication media should fit the job. Chats be volatile and fast while mail, mailing lists and news are allowing detailed discussions in long articles.

    Sending people from twitXter or FB to Mastodon does not help them evolve. It just gives addicts a supposedly more free variant of their drug instead of getting them away from it.

    Less is more!

    The isolationists are wrong, and to me would rather watch the world burn for the sake of being proven right in their isolation than to help people.

  • It's easy to make statements, suggestions, and opinions, but it's really hard to actually do things in practice.

    We all want more people here. The question is "How?", and simply saying "Make good defaults" is easier said than done (what are good defaults?) and "good defaults" is too simple of an answer to a very complex issue.

    The conversation has been stuck here for over a year already as very few people are actually willing to develop and test these solutions which takes a lot of resources too.

    The irony of the situation is that a lot of these solutions that have been suggested also need a central authority. For example, people have suggested creating a central hub where everyone can sign up to. Another example is creating a little quiz which begs the question "Who decides which instances goes there?".

    The best effort I've seen in trying to implement a solution are Reddit mirrors which aren't well-received because nobody likes talking to bots.

    As a personal anectode on "lowering the barrier of entry":

    Since I started this instance (ani.social), my goal in mind was to make it very easy for users to sign up. There's no manual approval here (except when it's being flooded with trolls). Only email verification is needed -- just like every social media platform.

    But sometimes when new users sign up, they comment or post on communities in instances that defederated from us.

    Now I have to think about how I'm supposed to explain defederation to people, and the moment I do try to explain, that's a big turn off for many.

    Trying to hide federation is impossible. The Fediverse demands a new kind of usership that understands how the network works.

    Again, I'm not saying Lemmy can't improve (it can in a lot of ways), but it all boils down to developer resources and who's willing enough to test these solutions to see what works and what doesn't. On the other hand, it takes minimal effort to say "It needs to be better".

    • We all want more people here.

      We want more people who understand the concept of the fediverse and who will be good partipants. An incdeased volume of users is not necessarily a benefit, and frequently becomes a detriment as malicious actors become interested in the next big thing.

      • That's exactly what I meant by:

        The Fediverse demands a new kind of usership that understands how the network works.

    • Thanks.

      I was frustrated because it seemed like people didnt want more people here, which is what prompted the post.

      If we do agree we want more people here then im happy.

      I mean honestly maybe this is a good project for me after im not so busy. I dont think we need to parse every new user to an ideal instance, but have a starting instance. Simple as that. Treat lemmy as if it were one website without additional instances and the only thing that would drive people to move from the default instance is their own motivation to customize their experience. So yes it would be a very simple, but inherently biased sign up.

      Personally i would love to understand better what instances are viewable to other instances to help make such a tool but i havent set out to research that myself.

      Sorry i dont have time to discuss further today, i appreciate your comment.

112 comments