Gamers yearn for the Ditko days where Spider-Man was some Randian chud (CW: reactionary Gamer malding)

:graeber: They aren’t fascists. They are just ordinary, decent, super-powerful people who inhabit a world in which fascism is the only political possibility.

The boys is the only accurate portrayal of superheroes

True. Like a lot of things, superhero comics started out with working-class origins and generally took a stance on things, even in a liberal way. But they were definitely used to promote and encourage social change, such as the civil rights allegories of the X-Men, the racial topics with Black Panther, etc.

But of course, comics got popular, and profitable. When capitalists got their hands on this art, they began to do their usual thing of twisting art, no matter how subversive it may have been, into reinforcing the status quo. Now, very few comics actually had real leftist messaging, but any progressive themes that they may have once had have been swallowed up by the Disney machine.

The first multi-issue story arc in Marvel comics was actually about T'Challa, the Black Panther, leading a prosperous African nation in the comic Jungle Action (Yeah, that name is pretty racist now). The arc right after that has Black Panther fight the KKK, despite pushback from the public (dumbass white nerds) and even some Marvel staffers.

Take the same arc in the modern movies, with Black Panther (2018). All the progressiveness is surface level. T'Challa allies with the CIA to fight comically-evil revolutionaries that make very real points about the status quo. Just embarrassing slop from the capitalists. All I can think about is that Disco Elysium quote, about how Capital can even subsume all critiques within itself, and turn them into propaganda.

I'm no comics expert (I haven't read all that many) and comics have always included many brainworms. But they definitely were cooler back when they weren't written by billionaires to sell worldwide.

Marvel defenders of the status quo - Pop Culture Detective

we will have this debate over and over forever until cape comics are finally abolished under the DotP.

Permanently Deleted

There's a certain irony that Ditko, a staunch objectivist, died penniless and alone,

So did Ayn Rand.

You know what's insane? Stan Lee got him into Rand in the first place. I can't dislike Ditko, he seems like someone so out of his element who was sold a lie so he could be exploited. Ironically not disimilar to how his Spidey originally was a bullied kid who wanted to BE the bully before he got a wake-up call

One must imagine Ditko happy.

Nonpolitical graffiti only! Also dae really hate how artists are forced to present wokeness?

yes, only star wars characters saying the most uncontroversial things possible. like a pic of chewbacca in rainbow colours, also he has sunglasses and a cigar, saying "no bad things"

Yep, even though it wasn't actually a plot point. There was just a lot of subtext about choosing your own identity, and her scenes were full of trans colors (and I think a trans flag?)

Proof that chuds only care about subtext when they can whine about it

She literally has a "protect trans kids" flag in her room and her cop dad has a trans flag patch. No way a cop wears a patch like that unless it's for their own kid (if even).

Plus the subtext someone else mentioned.

Pete just wishes those protesters would pick themselves up by the bootstraps, that's all

There is a panel in the old comics where he's mad that people are protesting Vietnam

It's funny cause Superman often does fight for the cops and their system of justice while Batman, at least in his first years in all continuities, fights corruption and against the cops. I always think of the line from Arkham Origins when Gordon says "we've earned the people of Gotham's respect" and Batman responds: "if that was true, I wouldn't be here"

Year One is so full of commentary on the police, especially in the trade's additional "Gotham crime blotter". Sure it goes in a somewhat reactionary punisher direction, and shades of later Miller are 100% there, but the heart of it is angry at the police.

My point is Batman says ACAB...to a point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pkR6fnAlWQ

Wonderful article on the limitations even in Batman stories that do show corruption and try to address real issues. Honestly I would love to see this kind of dive into the Riddler's militia guys because there is a LOT to be said there

Spidey I have come to really appreciate for never really being not antagonistic with cops in the comics. The video game is insane in how much it fellates the police at every turn. It hit me that Spidey in the comics as default is hunted by cops, he cannot even hand criminals over without getting shot at. Makes him super unique

Bourgeois heroes are essentially just super cops.

Or vigilantes that border on being paramilitaries.

One thing we do know is that Jameson’s confession attracted real-time 1960s Objectivist commentary, but in a way that’s quite at odds with how this scene has been interpreted: The first hint of Objectivist philosophy infiltrating Marvel came buried in the letters page of Spider-Man #21 . Given the lead time required in putting a comic book together, most letters commenced on material three or four months old. Here, however, a letter from an obvious Rand follower commented on the story from eleven mont0hs earlier, in issue ten. It referenced J. Jonah Jameson’s three-panel soliloquy attacking Spider-Man as being a manifestation of his own deep-rooted insecurity. The letter writer, John Bailey, took issue with Jameson’s portrayal in the book: “Money is not a tool of the looters or the moochers; it is a tool of the producers. I ask by what standard may J.J.J ., a producer, be said to be less moral or even immoral in comparison with Spider-Man? How can J. Jonah Jameson, who has provided work for hundreds or thousands and news for millions, be said co be immoral? Why has a man that has amassed a fortune solely through providing the news faster, cheaper, more concisely, and more accurately than any other source accept a standard of morality that holds his production, his virtue to be evil?”

Now in this case, I think Blake Bell, the author of a fine book on Ditko, has misread the evidence (and in any case I thank him for presenting his claims fairly so that readers can look over his shoulder and draw other conclusions). Bell is using this scene to identify the rise of Objectivist ideas in Spider-Man, but all this letter from ASM#21 reveals is that ASM counted Objectivists among its readership. More importantly, the Objectivist reader sees the Jameson monologue and wonders why it’s critical of Jonah. To me what this indicates is that to an Objectivist audience, Spider-Man comics would be more sympathetic to Jonah than otherwise. And from what we see of Ditko’s run, Jonah remained largely the same crusty curmudgeon and comical buffoon from start to finish. That said, Stan Lee’s slangy response about nobody in the bullpen being “anti-money” and about his reader being a philosophy major is certainly him reading his reader as a Randian, which does confirm a Randian familiarity on his part.

This letter presented by Bell complicates what we understand to be “Objectivist reading”. Steven Attewell’s reading of Ditko’s Randian view of Jameson excerpted above stands at odds with how this scene was received. Anti-Randian Spider-Man fans see this scene and think Jameson’s resentment at Peter is like Toohey wanting to strike at Roark but Objectivist readers see a denigration of businessmen. From the point of view of denigration of businessman, we cannot neglect to mention that it was Ditko who presented Norman Osborn far more unsympathetically than Stan Lee. Maybe the scene with Jameson is sorta Objectivist but it’s not clear what it’s trying to communicate about Objectivism, and it implies if anything that perhaps both Lee and/or Ditko had an imperfect understanding of Objectivism at the time.

So far we’ve covered Ditko’s run in the early and middle stretches, now we turn to the end. In terms of biographical narrative, it makes more sense that the final issues of Ditko’s run turned in by late 1965 (and printed in mid-1966) ought to reflect Randian elements, especially given Mr. A came out in 1967.

For instance, in ASM#36, Ditko’s third-from-last issue, he introduces a one-and-done villain called “The Looter”. Looter is a term that Rand used to describe enemies of objectivism. There’s the question of who came up with the title of the villain: Ditko or Lee? Is it Lee’s Randianism or Ditko’s? Either way the villain, a typical mad scientist, doesn’t resemble at all the usual Randian concept of looter (think “welfare queen”).

The biggest get for the Objectivist Interpretation is of course the protest scene of ASM#38. Ditko’s last issue.

The scene is a single page, a 8 panel grid. It shows Peter walking alone past campus while Flash, Gwen, Harry who are Peter’s bullies in his college era in the Ditko run comment on the sides. The protestors are an all-white group, and they are specifically listed as “protesting tonight’s protest meeting” in other words it’s a non-political protest event. Symbolically of course the entire scene portrays college protests as somewhat frivolous so it can be seen as mocking, though as stuff goes it’s pretty mild. We also have Gwen, Harry, Flash attacking Peter because they think he’s joining the protests but then they make fun of him for being too spineless to march which attacks the hip posturing involved in performative activism.

Now as drawn and plotted by Ditko, this is a mild bit of comedy showing how the college social scene is different from the high school era but at the same time, Peter’s still misunderstood and made fun by Flash. The dialogues by Stan Lee (perhaps following Ditko’s indications), portrays a studiously non-political protest. Now you might see this as implying that all college protests are frivolous but for me, it shows this protest as frivolous in content, rather than showing protesting as being frivolous in essence, such as Robin Wright’s Jenny’s ’60s hippie arc in the movie Forrest Gump which shows the counter-culture era of the ’60s as a downward arc for the girl who tried to escape her family and ultimately get AIDS, and whose main legacy is leaving behind a kid with the “good ol’ Southern Kid” (who descends from KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest — yep that movie didn’t age well). One of the protestors when attacking Peter for not joining in says he listens to “Lawrence Welk” i.e. a 60s entertainer known for “champagne music”. So this isn’t exactly about political attitudes. A close reading of this scene finds it lacking in teeth, and it doesn’t seem anything that Lee or Ditko gave any time or mind to in the charting of this issue. Which stands at odds with the mountain of commentary that this protest scene has gotten.

The protest scene of ASM#38 shows the dialogue by Stan Lee as unsympathetic to the protestors exactly as the art indicated by Steve Ditko. To the extent there were clashes between them it had nothing to do with that scene. Obviously, the revelation of Lee’s own fascination with Rand and his libertarian moderate leanings happened after 2007, under Blake Bell’s biography in 2011, and Riesman’s biography in 2021, so Gaiman can’t be faulted for not having access to the freshest research. But one can well argue how a person so intelligent as Gaiman, so nuanced and learned, failed to commit the close reading to support his claim. Gaiman’s quote in the BBC documentary which aired in 2007, thanks to his great prestige and fame, legitimized the notion of the dichotomy between “Liberal” Stan Lee and Objectivist Ditko.

By doing so he gave voice, and prestige, to a critical sport that I’d like to call “Ditko-Bashing” which is to say Objectivism is only ever invoked in connection to Spider-Man to attack Steve Ditko and praise Stan Lee, with the implicit undercurrent that Spider-Man was saved from Ditko by Lee. Take NerdSync, who in 2021 released a video on their YouTube Channel, “Why Spider-Man used to suck” and discusses Ditko’s Randian influences between 34-38mns. The reading of that scene, the title of the video, and his screed against Ditko is more heat than light [9]. The subtext is again Ditko was wrong, Stan was right. And somehow Ditko and Ditko alone, is held to task for his political opinions, in NerdSync’s opinion, for implicitly making Spider-Man a supporter of the Vietnam War and against the Civil Rights, which literally has no textual support.

With regards to Vietnam why is Ditko the one singled out for blame for an apolitical scene that covers about 8 panels in a 40 issue run, when Stan Lee featured far more explicit pro-war scenes in comics of the time? It was Stan Lee who sought to situate Iron Man as a Cold Warrior capitalist superhero whose origin had him in Vietnam selling arms to the South before being attacked by communists. As much as the comic is about Stark as a reformist arms dealer, the origin paints the communists as outright bad guys. Ditko had nothing to do with Iron Man’s origin. His contribution, the red and gold armor look came later. When Ditko stepped down, Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. had Flash Thompson enlist in service and ship off to Vietnam for a tour of duty. The scene of Flash leaving for war in ASM#47 shows his friends as supportive, without any voice against the war or any quibbles about the justification for fighting. Obviously Stan Lee would never have Spider-Man enlist, but he was willing to have a prominent supporting cast member, and Spider-Man’s #1 fan enlist. As Riesman’s biography attests above, privately as the war was becoming unpopular, Lee was willing to cop to his young audience that it was a mistake but he was not committed to pulling out of Vietnam either. As Spencer Ackerman points out, publicly Stan Lee always took a neutral attitude to Vietnam in the pages of Marvel Letters, as opposed to Jack Kirby: “Over the years we’ve received a zillion letters asking for the Bullpen’s opinion about such diverse subjects as Viet Nam, civil rights, the war on poverty, and the upcoming election,” Lee wrote in the September 1968 Stan’s Soapbox. “We’re phantasmagorically flattered that our opinion would matter to you, but here’s the hang-up: there isn’t any unanimous Bullpen opinion about anything, except possibly mother love and apple pie!” (By contrast, here is Jack Kirby, a combat veteran of Patton’s Army who abhorred tyranny and war: “I didn’t like that war. I thought it was crazy. And of course, that had an effect on a generation of young people who just couldn’t understand it.”)

I think the bourgeoisie exhibiting tolerance on a limited range of social issues which do not impact their economic standing should not be interpreted in any way as revolutionary potential. In my mind, this is no different than the Euro Socdem concessions like universal healthcare and annual leave.