Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

SimpleX Chat Ltd is a seed stage startup with a lot of user growth in 2022-2023, and a lot of exciting technical and product problems to solve to grow faster.
Run by a VC funded for-profit company. That really should tell you all you need to know. Sorry, but no thanks.
- this is a wrong take for a few reasons, if we're talking about trust.
  Also, Signal literally was taking money from the CIA for a decade and also is based in the US anyway, and no one hardly said a word 🤣🤣 "Privacy" activists are a joke lmao. Also signal made a crypto coin and took away features like SMS, but of course they get a free pass for that too. Makes you wonder.
  SimpleX is fully open source, verifiable, and audited. If there are changes that are bad, the community will talk about them, and at worst it can be forked
  SimpleX has made it clear that they dont want you to trust them. It's decentralised and anyone can run their own relay, and the servers are designed prevent correlation. They also make it very easy to use TOR and multiple circuits. This is contrary to the inferior Signal model where you just have to trust that the centralized Signal org isnt leaking your phone and IP to the feds.
  moving towards a decentralised, open, and trustless world is better for everyone. In this kind of system, I really dont give a damn where they are getting their money from, as long as they arent putting crap in the software, and if they do, we will all know about it. But so far they have shown that they are committed to extreme security and privacy, and they obviously arent trying to appeal to normies, so i doubt they would ever even try to put VC-pushed garbage in.
  If you want a good app, you will need funding from somewhere. Look at apps like Session that arent funded well. They suck. So I'd rather SimpleX be funded by a VC instead of by the feds like Signal, as long as everything stays open, free, trustless, and decentralised
  Time to get downvoted! See you guys at -50 😁
  
  Where did I even mention Signal? Total strawman argument, as I don't think Signal is a good option either.
  But you go ahead and trust Simplex Chat Ltd. I guess some people only learn from their own mistakes 🤷‍♂️
  
  Exactly what I thought; if the technology is so decentralized does it make sense to care so much about who finances the project? Like if one instance of lemmy was funded by Microsoft, we could easily use another one and block it, right?
  
  Would you say Tor is bad because its from the US navy?
  
  I'm in full agreement with you. Not even a little bit of disagreement.
  
  This comment right here is the sanest in this thread
- Upvoted bc VC eventually means enshittifiication. But with xz getting back-doored recently, what is the middle ground that keeps these things sustainable financially and operationally?
  
  Maybe it’ll be governments partially funding it. If Schleswig-Holstein’s attempt is anything to go by, it might be a way
  
  Secure and private by design is the solution
  Nobody can compromise you if they can't
- I did not know it was run by a VC funded company. Isn’t it open source and audited though? https://simplex.chat/blog/20221108-simplex-chat-v4.2-security-audit-new-website.html
  Either way, if one needs to communicate without the use of identifiers like a phone number (afaik signal requires one) I trust Session. SimpleX features cool new tech but let’s wait until it matures
  
  AFAIK it is audited, and its threat model is rather extreme, like there is no unequivocally binding id, you can give every contact a different id
  They talk about for profit/no profit in their last blog entry
  https://simplex.chat/blog/20240323-simplex-network-privacy-non-profit-v5-6-quantum-resistant-e2e-encryption-simple-migration.html
- Why should that be an issue? It's fully open source
  
  Oh, my sweet sweet summer child... I have bad news for you 😆
- Thanks, I just uninstalled it lol.

My friends barely want to use Signal. There's no chance they're using something else.

"Hang on let me write down my QR code"
Usernames exist for a reason, especially in chat apps. Not having usernames is only going to severely limit your target demographic. And if nobody uses your app does it's benefits even matter?
- You just scan QR codes. It is not that complicated
  
  It can be pretty complicated without a phone. Especially if your computer doesn't have a webcam.
  
  You match with someone on a dating app and want to move to the next step... Sending them a QR code to scan into the app is a huge hurdle.

I'd definitely use it if my friends were using it. Sadly, I can't even get them to use signal.
- Same.... Sigh...
  I don't need people to be hyper-privacy minded. But just a little bit at least. I'm not expecting everybody to self host a matrix server and use element and run self hosted services on their own RPI.
  But just not pick one of the worst ones?
- Find better friends. I say that but my friends decided to leave Facebook Messenger group chat… for Instagram. Now they use both.

Never heard and don't know any users. I suspect I'm not alone.
- I saw a user’s hash just this week — it was in a ransom note. They required their victims to sign up for the service and text a code to their userhash to kick off sending the attacker cryptocurrency so they’d send a decryption key and not make stolen data public.
  Other than that use case, it hasn’t picked up many users that I’m aware of.

If I want a simple chat protocol, I use IRC or XMPP. These are battle proven by time. If I want a really secure protocol, I use Signal or Matrix. These are endored by many security experts who their shit when they assess protocols, crypto and solutions.
SimpleX may be a good alternative for anonymous communication, but there is plenty options out there. Considering how many startups are funded by cheap VC money, and the business model is always "provide something awesome, and once you have enough traction - enshittify it" makes me very weary of investing myself in new solutions no matter how open-source the are.
I may sound bitter and skeptic, but I've seen this pattern has been repeated many times over.
- Signal was funded by the CIA for a decade
  
  So? Tor is in a similar boat.
  Government agencies need secure crypto to hide their activities, and it doesn’t work if they’re the only ones using the technology.

I don't trust for profit venture capital funding, if you want to see where it ends up just Look at how telegram or wickr transitions from being "open" and free to getting stripped of features only to have them become paid only and the wickr sold off to Amazon and ended all non business support...the business model for making a profit off chat applications is bad for users.
Also now that signal supports usernames I have no reason to use anything else even for people I wouldn't want having my real number.
- Agreed, this is why I am slowly moving away from Signal. The moment they announced putting in a wallet along their own crypto, was the sign for me to leave.

I've been a fan of SimpleX for a while now. Privacy comes at the cost of convenience, and SimpleX is the most private messaging platform according to this spreadsheet.
- No Jami? Absurd.
  
  Jami hasn't had a security audit
  
  Jami really needs to get talked about more. I think it's great.
  
  Doesn't work, never will. Partly because both have ro be online to chaz
- Thanks for this report.
  
  Beware https://privacyspreadsheet.com/messaging-apps uses Google fonts. So much for privacy.

Any chat protocol without full mutli-device support is not really an option for me https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat/issues/444.

In F-Droid, after disabling all anti-features, SimpleX still is listed. Signal never will be due to connecting to GCM or Firebase. Molly is an improvement for Signal but not for untrackable privacy like SimpleX from using a different ID with each individual SimpleX contact.
- I hoped Molly leaved the sms feature, that is the only thing I can use as a bait for let my friends switch to signal.
  
  No, because SMS code was removed from Signal, I believe Molly would have to fork the code if they try to put it back in.

I liked the fact that it is really easy to self-host.
I tried it with friends on discord and in 10min I had a vps with a server running.

@SolarPunker@slrpnk.net I've not heard of anyone who does "not like" it? Many don't know about it maybe. I can't think of anything I've seen against it as it ticks most of the boxes for excellent privacy and has been very usable for me.
- Me, my friends, and family are using it
  Aaand.. Everyone is hating it, tbh 🤣
  The notifications are unreliable and at the same time it drains 20% of the battery
  Waiting for fixes, also want to setup my own relay

Interesting project, but last time I tried it was battery hungry, and having made quite an effort to get some of my contacts on Signal, I don't see it happen to get them all on SimpleXChat. And Signal Stickers make Signal more attractive for some.
- I'd say the battery problem is now under control. The UI is still horrible though...

Does it have forward/future security?
- https://simplex.chat/blog/20240314-simplex-chat-v5-6-quantum-resistance-signal-double-ratchet-algorithm.html
  ¹ Repudiation in SimpleX Chat will include client-server protocol from v5.7 or v5.8. Currently it is implemented but not enabled yet, as its support requires releasing the relay protocol that breaks backward compatibility.
  ² Post-quantum cryptography is available in beta version, as opt-in only for direct conversations. See below how it will be rolled-out further.
  Some columns are marked with a yellow checkmark:
  when messages are padded, but not to a fixed size.
  when repudiation does not include client-server connection. In case of Cwtch it appears that the presence of cryptographic signatures compromises repudiation (deniability), but it needs to be clarified.
  when 2-factor key exchange is optional (via security code verification).
  when post-quantum cryptography is only added to the initial key agreement and does not protect break-in recovery.

I think it's just that there are too many options and the communities are so fragmented. I'm trying out simplex but it still feels like beta software. Regardless I'd like to see it succeed so we have a real private alternative that doesn't rely on big tech or shady government sponsorship.

After Signal dropped SMS support, most of my friends jumped ship. No way they're using this.

SimpleX is great but not ready for prime time.
I use it as a copy paste buffer on my different devices. I run into issues with sending media sometimes.
Adding people at a distance is a huge pain in the ass with long codes, that needs a solution before the app can be used by normal people.
- Optional usernames would be nice

Seems like another one of those mobile only messengers, not really interested in those to be honest.
- There's a desktop app: https://simplex.chat/downloads/#desktop-app
  
  Ah, must have missed that one, though
  Using the same profile as on mobile device is not yet supported – you need to create a separate profile to use desktop apps.
  is a pretty major downside.
- There is a desktop app but linking is not as easy and featured as Session, which is really easy to use on multiple devices, but then you lose the superior security of SimpleX
- This is why I use Wire.
  Desktop is a first-class app (not dependent on a mobile app), no phone number required, and syncing chats between all your devices just works.
  Wire hasn't been updated in 2 years on fdroid tho, so I'm eager to switch to something else. But nothing else exists that meets these basic usability reqs.

Because when you read their website https://simplex.chat/ and they say stuff like "Possibility of MITM > NO" and "Central component or other network-wide attack > No - resilient" they kind lose their credibility.
Also, "Other apps have user IDs (...) SimpleX does not, not even random numbers." > there must be an ID at some point. When you invite someone with a QR code or a link that effectively becomes an ID - even if it changes for every invitation. Also servers need to coordinate message delivery, some form of ID is required for that.
The way the messaging queues work and what the servers see is interesting but I'm yet to dig into that.

Never tried it. But I use Element, which is based on the Matrix protocol.
- With SimpleX each server is replacable/fungible
- Isn't matrix encryption beta? I remembered element always warns about that
  
  I don't think so.

What does their multi-device story look like? Can I use one identity/account on multiple devices, with synced read state etc?
Edit: Looks like it's being worked on. I don't want to use a messenger without this feature anymore, but I'll give SimpleX another look once it's done.

They do. I absolutely love it

Are chats synced with the mobile and desktop clients?

Session messenger allows you to chat without linking a phone number to your account. It’s what drug dealers use lol.
- Same for simplex 🫠
- What really bothers me about Session is that you effectively cannot selfhost - hosting a node is prohibitively expensive. So seems like the only people who can realistically host a node are crypto bros, big companies and government agencies. Thanks, I would rather stick with IRC/XMPP/Matrix.
  
  Fair

I would use it, if there were unified push support.
- What is that and why does it matter?
  
  unified push works as a stand in for gms on devices without it. it runs in the background & receive the wakeup pings for the apps (in this case simplex) so you only need one websocket open instead of a different background service for each app. hugely reduces battery use.
- Jami has that.
  
  Jami is a bloated insecure mess. It is getting better but I would not use it
  
  Also Molly and Mercurygram and most of the Matrix messengers
  
  Jami is broken

Simple answer to the question so far as I can see: in order to connect with someone, you have to video conference with them and show them a code. So the anonymity is only as anonymous as the video conference you use to do that. All of the benefits it claims are merely an illusion.
- Just send them the code. It's okay if the channel over which they the receive the code is insecure

Top-Tec! decentralized and doesn’t depend on any unique identifiers

because of herpes simplex

Here is my take as someone who absolutely loves the work simplex did on the SMP protocol, but still does not use SimpleX Chat.
First the trivial stuff:
no one else seems to use it
UX is not great because of initial exchange
These two are not that unexpected. Any other chat app with E2E security has tricky UX, and SimpleX takes the hard road by not trading off security/privacy for UX. I think this is a plus, but yes it annoys people.
Now for the reasons that really keep me away:
the desktop app is way behind the mobile app - and I would really prefer to use a desktop CLI app
haskell puts me off a bit - the language is fine I just don't know how to read it - for more practical issues it did not support older (arm6/7) devices which kept lots of people in older devices away
AFAIK no alternative implementations of either the client or the SMP server exist - which is a petty I think the protocol would shine in other contexts (like push notifications)
I was going to say that there are not many 3rd party user groups - but I just found out about the directory service (shame on me, maybe? can't seem to find groups though)
protocol features/stabilization is a moving target and most of the fancy new features don't really interest me (i don't care much about audio/video)
stabilization of code/dependencies would help package the server/client in more linux distros, which I think would help adoption among the tech folk
Finally a couple of points on some of the other comments:
multi device support - no protocol out there can do multi device properly (not signal, none really) so i'm ok with biting the bullet on this
VC funding is a drag - but I am still thankful that they clearly specified the chat protocol separate from the message relay, which means that even if the chat app dies, SMP could still be used for other stuff.

Because Signal is great.
- It's really not. Requires phone number and is centralized
  
  i don't know in what world you're living, but in this world where people think you're (edit: we are) a pain in the ass for refusing to install WhatsApp when everyone is expected to use it for official communication (work + organizations); Signal is great.
  I've convinced a couple of dozens of people to use Signal, and only one to keep Simplex as, at least, a backup.
  as a caring-about-privacy minority we can invite "them" to Signal. "They" know Signal and Telegram👎. "They" understand our concerns. "They" for whatever incomprehensible reason keep using WhatsApp 🤷 We're left out of the loop because once "everyone" is on that WhatsApp group, it's tiring for them to send an email or an sms to the exceptional one or two people

- I'm not saying it necessarily is a good name but simplex is just a Latin word that's used in many contexts. I for one would have never thought of Herpes here
- HERPES would be an AMAZING messaging app, since a estimated 60-95% of adults have it already..... So very catchy!
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes
  
  Hey man, do you have herpes? Try it out. It is really easy to get one.