New Refrigerators, Washing Machines, Furniture and Tires Will All Have to Last Longer, Europe Mandates
New Refrigerators, Washing Machines, Furniture and Tires Will All Have to Last Longer, Europe Mandates
Imagine, government of the people, by the people, and for the people - that's crazy SoCiAlIsM talk!
Longer means more forever chemicals
Right, so if they break down faster the forever chemicals disappear faster. Is that what you mean?
Do you even know what forever chemicals are or do you think they're a magic thing that are added to machines to make them last longer?
I'd love to hear how you came to that conclusion.
Not necessarily, you can use more steel, stronger parts. And if forever chemicals become a problem, you can regulate them just like with everything else. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Not really, it means mechanically working longer not forever.
Back to the good old days when products were of higher quality. What a concept.
And to a world where repairing is both possible and feasible.
I've heard this from service techs who have worked on my refrigerator and dishwasher - major appliances in America last a third as long as they did 10 or 15 years ago.
I can tell you from firsthand experience it's even worse than that. I had a washer that lasted me damn near 20 years that was made in the 90s. Finally decided to get a new set from Samsung. Made it just past warranty, or basically 1 year. The repair would have cost as much as the washer was new. Similar experience with an LG fridge. Bought it and the ice machine broke in it, TWICE, within the first year. Fuck these brands and their established hold on the market.
they are truly junk. the only goal of American industry, it seems, is to make more money than ever.
And that's nothing. You know how they're pushing for washing machines, dishwashers, etc. to be internet connected? Currently they're forcing this for data mining purposes. But I have no doubt their real goal is to eventually make these devices like printers, with expensive consumables locked in by internet-connected DRM. They've already gotten people used to using dish and clothes detergent pods. How long until they're putting everything in plastic cartridges, locking things down with DRM, and charging like printer companies do?
Money burns the world to the ground
My washing machine is around 25 years old. Not giving it up till its absolutely done haha. But since parts are relatively available, it might just be a few more years.
We have a Bosch washing machine we bought second hand 15 years ago for £50. It's basic, not digital, but has all the functions we need. We've never had a problem with it. It will break one day but I'm hoping it lasts a lot longer still.
Bosch makes good appliances.
Oh look! So much progress is being made since USA embargoed itself!
I know this is a joke, but it is important to point out for others that such policies get years to be designed, discussed and published in the EU.
And this law came into effect last July
And work without apps.
You can buy LED lightbulbs that all have their own apps. It's getting ridiculous
To be fair most do work without the app. The app is for remote control and other features like colors usually.
Just use home assistant, you don't need their hubs/apps (assuming they use a standard like Zigbee or zwave). For wifi try tasmota.
They should just force them to open the API, this would be sufficient in most cases.
A welcome mandate, especially for electronics. However people are already throwing away so much perfectly fine furniture that I don‘t think it will help much in that regard. A lot of people want something new, not something that just works.
Where are you living? Here people give away (emmaus for example) or sell it online, for cheap equals you don't even need to throw it away, someone comes and picks it up for you.
Those appliances are so simple too, making them durable is very low cost. Good move EU.
Where I live you can easily give your stuff away or donate it to a charity shop, but it's a tiny bit less effort to chuck it in the trash so there are people who do that. Not all of them, thank god, but you can come across decent stuff every one in a while. Do have to say people are more likely to dump cheap stuff than reliable stuff from known brands.
Yeah they buy new because the advertisements give you idea that new is cool, brainwashing one into consuming. We should ban ads
Disposable culture is a blight on society...
This is absolutely true and sad, though I get a lot of free electronics to dismantle by rummaging through trash. People have no appreciation of the value of "used" items that either work perfectly fine or have a minor issue that prevents them from working but is easily fixable, e.g. a broken cable (I have many working devices that were thrown away because the cable is severed, which I could easily fix). I think only proper education in this regard will improve things long term.
People have been conditioned to throw away perfectly good shit, now we are surprised they throw away shit. This policy is obviously not gonna fix the issue on its own, but as you said, it's welcome.
I specifically want new because I already know even the new won't last long don't even mind something someone has used for a few years already
Well, for furniture, I totally agree with you and honestly: I don't think there is eomething wrong with redesigning your living room every 10 years, especially when you move around.
I mainly want to be able to buy old washing machines, dish washers, TVs, because I don't care about their appearance.
If it's quality furniture you can sell or donate it. If it's recent Ikea or other cheap stuff, it won't survive being disassembled, moved and reassembled. Ikea's surfaces scratch so easily, even on desks. It's ridiculous. That kind of fast furniture is terribly unsustainable. But I wouldn't be bothered if you bought a new sofa every ten years and make someone else happy with a used sofa that will last another ten years in it's new home.
If the produced stuff last longer it wouldn't mean there would be less competition on innovation, people would still have a reason to sell you their old appliances because they want certain new function. This law is against making stuff that can't be repaired or breaks easily. Don't think you'd buy a 2 year old tv if it doesn't work, right.
Samsung: god damnit, now we have to use the $0.30 washer instead of the $0.29 washer and itll last at least 10 years longer!
That's 10s of millions in extra sales lost!
Now, this is the trading standards that we all ask for; not "be more racist" or repeal the protection on lgbt. Christ, American fascism is the weirdest i have seen. Fascism in the past didn't even try to dictate the laws and regulations of other countries.
"We will stop our tariffs if you accept our diseased, chlorinated chicken"
I don’t even understand what fascism means in each case on lemmy and whether it is a fixed term or some adaptive catch it all
I usually go by Umberto Eco's points but some scholars added their own. By and large, most agree that aspects such as militarism, demonization of out-groups, belief in a strongman authority figure, and lack recognition of civil rights and liberties are key characteristics of fascism. Trump 2.0 has most if not all the characteristics of fascism. Even now, Trump refuses to comply with court orders, has police harass and grab people without lawful warrant, demonizes out-groups and threatening military action.
What exactly is there to dispute with a government that is trying to carve a unitary executive out of a 3 branch system, admires Nazis, has ties to actual neo-Nazis and leaders who have literally seig heiled, and is currently turning an agency into the gestapo and deporting anyone he wants to concentration camps?
The definition I find useful is, Fascism is when an imperial power begins applying colonial policies to citizens in its core.
So, for a practical example, the United States has used extra-judicial black sites to disappear and torture people the CIA/pentagon deem enemies for decades. Locking up people in El Salvador without (constitutionally mandatory) trial or legal council is just that policy brought home.
This is a fair point made in an absurd context
The spirit is willing, but the machine is spongy and bruised.
Bullshit. My aunt has a washing machine with all knobs and switches that's probably 30+ years old and it still works fine.
They need to stop putting all these digital components into washing machines or make the boards standardized so they can be easily swapped out. These aren't laptops that you toss after 3-5 years. Appliances should last 10-20 years.
We really need to stop with this “build to break” mentality for products. Our wastes, as humanity, would significantly lower and reduce wastes…. But hey, we also have to think of the investor's, right?
This is a good first step. The next would be to lower the ridiculous amount of electronics in them and remove wifi and telemetry functionality. A dish washer should never have to connect to a server to do its job.
I would like it to come with an open source firmware that I could connect to my locally hosted servers.
I would enjoy mapping out load weights, water and electricity consumption, and cross reference that with a lot of other stuff. Plus some remote controls, and a better interface to choosing washing programs and scheduling start/end...
I just don't want any of that data to leave my house, ever.
Electronics in general should last longer, just like back in the day.
Plenty of short-lived stuff back then, too. Survivorship bias means that all the stuff that happened to survive to today is not necessarily representative of the typical thing that was manufactured back then.
Well yes it's ridiculous we have (in EU) a mandatory warranty of only 2 years on anything electronic.
Phones should be 5 years. Appliances should be 10 and cars 15 or 200k kilometers. How have we normalized the fact that it's okay for a car to break down after two years and the manufacturer is not on the hook ?
When buying future appliances, I have to be sure to get them from the EU. Standards in the US are going to be below the floor.
I'm liking the sound of "Made in EU = high quality"
Prepare to pay out the ass for that though. Between tariffs and a weakening dollar.
If you are in the EU yourself it's not that bad. All my appliances are actually made in Germany, and they were mid-price (BSH and Liebherr, a bit more expensive than chinese/korean but with better efficiency, warranties and reviews).
Why? We don't buy products like this from the US. If its imported its coming from China.
Quick edit: I clearly misread the comment you replied to
Hell yeah. This is the good shit.
The three biggest things that kill a tyre are;
That said, cheaper tyres are typically made of cheaper compounds that age poorly.
That last point sticks with me.
I always used to get the cheapest, shittest tyres just because cost, but since I became a driving instructor a few years back I got into the mentality of thinking "I need decent tyres because I don't want my learners to lose control of the car"
Normally I'd buy tyres once every 6-8 months after squeezing out every morsel of life from them, but my current Bridgestone tyres have been on for nearly a year now - doing driving instructor mileage on top of my usual - and they're not showing any signs of needing replacing yet.
The fact is I'm actually saving money doing it this way, because whilst the tyres are more expensive, I'm replacing them much less often.
I'm going to try out Pirelli next because it sounds like they've started lining the inside of some of their tyres with that puncture repair stuff and padding them out with foam to significantly reduce road noise.
Obligatory Pratchett:
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.
That's weird. I'm changing tires every 2 to 3 years and so is the norm in Europe.
Under inflation is terrible for longevity, handling, and safety. You should maintain proper tire pressure.
So is over-inflation. Always inflate to the correct pressure as per the placard. If you are driving in unusual conditions,
My little Jimny weighs bugger-all but needs Light Truck tyres. On-road pressure is a very light 26 PSI. If I am driving through Sand, Mud or Snow I will deflate to an appropriate pressure and drive slowly. If I am driving over rocky terrain, I will also deflate to an appropriate pressure for better adhesion.
As soon as I hit the Tarmac again, I will reinflate back to 26. If I am carrying more weight or towing, I will inflate the rear tyres to 29.
Never buy cheap tires - they are your only contact with the road. You can have the best car in the world, and shitty tires will make it worthless.
There are videos on the subject, making the point of buying good tires, cause they will save your life.
Same goes for wipers.
EVs are getting their own lines of tyres (supposedly) designed to handle the weight, torque and address range concerns.
It's a good thing they think about this. With that said, the tires can wait. Let's start with the low hanging fruit. It's a crime that critical components in home appliances break so easily and are so hard to fix.
Or impossible to buy spares for, or when you can get the spare part it's often so expensive with shipping that it's almost worth buying a new appliance on offer with the warranty that comes with it.
Tiny plastic part that holds the handle to my fridge broke. Need a new 50 cent plastic part.
GE wants $200 to replace all 3 metal handle assemblies. Can't just get the plastic part, it comes in a bundle with all 3 metal handles. Which would immediately go in the garbage.
If we can't get them on the "intentionally gouging customers" angle, we can surely get them on the "creating excess waste" angle.
Exactly this. I recently had my clothes washer break. Spent days researching the problem, taking the thing apart, figuring out the cause was the spindle on the back of the drum having a crack and eventually breaking. I eventually found a replacement part which had a slightly different part number but research showed it should be compatible. $400 for the part. $130 shipping, plus tax came out to just shy of $600. 2 week lead time to get the part, and no certainty I’d be able to put it all back together. Professional appliance repair wouldn’t have made financial sense either, I called around.
I ended up ordering a new one for $800 all in, saving many headaches. Had it two days later and was able to catch up on laundry.
Some stuff are just ridiculously tedious to service due to their design.
Asus laptops are notorious for this. I remember having to take apart everything including the mainboard just to replace the RAM module.
On a similar note, in car context, I've read about instances where one needed to take out the whole engine just to replace the spark plug. I think it was Mercedes A series, as well as some Wuling.
As much as I love this, I fail to see how this would be able to be written into law. It's basically gov mandated warranty period. If the goal is to have manufacturers make products that last, how long is long enough for every product category? What's to say that they do the same thing and design products that fail right after warranty ends? Who decides if there is foul play in designing faulty products and how? Unless the gov makes their own product that lasts for 20 years and tells every other company to use this as a baseline otherwise get fined, I don't know how they would be able to enforce this.
I just think this is a big gray area and it would be hard to make this cut and clear. The only thing I think they could do for now is to have companies provide repair manuals and provide parts for a set amount of years after product launch, and repairs should be able to be made by customers themselves without needing to go through 1st party verification like Apple requires with their phones.
Think you answered your own question there.
Mandated warranty periods. Pretty straight forward.
And they currently engineer product to have things fail right after their warranty expires, so, that’s not really a concern, since we’re already living with that.
And they currently engineer product to have things fail right after their warranty expires, so, that’s not really a concern, since we’re already living with the that.
Which is exactly my point of why mandated warranty period does not really fix the core of the problem, which is intentionally making products not last. It's just a bandaid solution (Yes I know a solution is still better than nothing, and may be the first step to address this issue). What I want to see is prolonging the life of a product by letting consumers freely fix their own stuff (parts, schematics, etc.) without the manufacturer locking things down, even after the warranty expires.
Do like Dubai (for this instance) and demand better LED bulbs too.
If you read into it, the video is misleading and the bulbs aren't as good as it claims. They don't go out but they suck when it comes to the light they produce
That’s too bad, I haven’t kept up with the news I. That I guess. The main problem I saw was that specifically Dubai preferred cold white light, while that should have nothing to do with longevity, the only place I can tolerate that is in my workshop, where I already have LED florescent replacements.
Dude I love Big Clive.
Well this mandate all but guarantees no trade deal will be made with the US. The things we do make don't last long.
The things we do make don’t last long.
I assume you're from the states? I've had my small Made in USA Thermos for 10 years. It's indestructible.
I could probably think of a few other good and durable things coming from the US - all sorts of guitars, banjos, ukuleles?
I'm being hyperbolic. Ultimately is buying US worth your soul, values/morals, and pride? In the end it's not worth it.
I wonder how this translates to tires. Generally, softer rubber translates to more grip and faster wear, and other way around. Does this mean that the tires will be less grippy then?
Maybe. Tire rubber compounds continue to improve, along with construction and tread design. So newer tires might be just as grippy and more efficient. Or way less grippy and way more efficient. Or way grippier and just as efficient. It just depends on the tradeoffs the manufacturer decided to make.
I believe that tires will go a long way in terms of wear and longevity (as we’ve seen in the past 100 years), but not sure if more grip and less rolling resistence (efficiency) is possible.
Yes. Cue in all the EV eco bullshit tires used on EVs that skid around already in good conditions and are absolutely horrible in bad conditions. All for sake of efficiency.
It's crazy only EU is doing these laws for consumers
I actually think a ton of mainstream Americans would be pro-Europe if the EU had looser gun laws. Americans just won't let go of their guns - weekly mass shootings = Freedom!
I'm going to assume it's because of EU voters.
Wow they are actually doing something to fight climate change for once. What's next, nuclear energy?
I'm sure just to offset the damage saved by more efficient machines, the appliance companies will just straight up start pouring fluorine and mercury mixed with concentrated AIDS into the water supply or something.
That feels like a move on the slippery slope from a market economy to a planning economy.
The objective is honorable, but better value should come from customer choices, not from regulations.
Instead of making those rules and establishing institutions that enforce them, the EU should create infrastructure that allows consumers to compare products objectively. Add the opportunity to finance more expensive but also more durable products easily and there is no need to suffocate everything in regulations.
I should add that this recreates the limited housing markets for consumer goods. This is going to make life more expensive despite each rule being very reasonable. The promise of the EU were free markets, but the opposite is happening.
but better value should come from customer choices, not from regulations.
You mean lower value should come from misleading advertisement, incomplete information, irrational behaviour of actors, and other forms of market failure. Because that is how it works out in the real world.
Also, quoth the constitution (or well what passes as one for the EU), Article 3(3) TEU:
The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.
Get out of here with Ayn Rand's fever dreams.
the EU should create infrastructure that allows consumers to compare products objectively
forms of market failure. Because that is how it works out in the real world
I think that it is better to improve the markets and minimize the market failures instead of trying to regulate everything.
Everything has to be checked by institutions if consumers are kept ignorant whereas competent consumers do that work for free.
Ah, the dream of a libertarian paradise.
The promise of the EU were free markets
Free as in fewer hurdles between nations, not as in "the market will take care of everything".
but the opposite is happening.
Yeah, no. The EU has always strived for a balance there. You bringing up the spectre of "planning economy" is just fearmongering.
You wouldn't happen to work at the Internet Research Agency?
Well you either have a plan to help people or the plan automatically devolves to “extract as much rent as possible from the people”.
Why can't you have both? Create the best value for customers, but you have to adhere to these regulations.
Seems like a perfectly reasonable position to me.
Regulatory capture. It already exists in the housing market, medical equipment, medical drugs, etc. There, things are more expensive than necessary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
The shift in responsibility to the EU is not free. Of course, it costs some taxes to run the institutions that enforce the regulations. But who is supervising those institutions? That would be up to the citizens, instead of comparing products directly.
Are citizens going to do that? Have citizens checked the sourcing of the covid vaccines?