9mo ago

About the bear...

So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it. The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places.
Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men."
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?

123 comments

For those that haven't seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.
- Oh I read it as beer and was confused for a while
  
  I would love to be in the woods with beer.
  The "random" part does really take the fun out of it though.

I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.
- It's worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I've always thought that same thing, "I'm a good guy.". But I've learned that it's better to think, "i may think I'm a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off," because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.
  Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I've been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I'm putting someone in, but the vibes I'm giving off.
  
  You get it
- I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I'd never been looked at like that before.
  I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don't know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions...it was hot as hell out, and we figured she'd been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters...we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.
  I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.
- I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife's ear.
  My wife responded "No, it's good. He's my husband." When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was "checking to make sure I knew you." My first response was "oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck." I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if "I'm one of the good ones."
  
  Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that's what's fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can't treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with "men are shitty, so I'm forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones".
- and plenty of women who think they are 'the good ones' are an abusive psycho. and men have no way of knowing until they are abused by her.
  
  And George Washington Carver was genius with peanuts. Whats that got to do with the topic at hand?

It’s not a maybe, that’s literally the entire point of the message. Unknown men are all too often kinda shitty because we have zero systems in place to teach men how to be good people and many systemic ways in which we’re told that we’re automatically better. We’re generally physically bigger, generally stronger, and, for the most part, taught to be entitled to a woman we happen to fancy.
But yes, you’ve read it correctly and we shouldn’t be getting upset but instead working on making ourselves more trustworthy. And it won’t happen in our lifetimes but it’ll be progress.
- Who teaches you that you're entitled to a woman you fancy?
  
  Traditional Western media. The hero always gets the girl?
  
  Andrew Tate
  
  Le Roman de la Rose, a mediaeval French poem that informed the tropes of western heterosexual media for the last thousand years.

If you took it personally, you might be part of the problem
- Yeah, it seems the guys that heard this and just said "yeah, that tracks" have already done the thought process/critical analysis that this movement is trying to evoke
- Or just gay? You're being an ass.
  Downvoted for being gay. So now you're a misandrist and a homophobe. Are you collecting them?

My take is that the people that would benefit the most from the introspection this hypothetical is meant to illicit are the furthest from being able to take it to heart. It works better as a way to make the worst people around you out themselves, so now you know to avoid them.

Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.
- I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.
  
  At least for me the question is how to talk to people who don't want to listen. And the easiest answer is obviously not to, but that does not work in long term since it just enforces the existing echo chambers.
- I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man's and woman's greatest fear on a date.
  The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.
  It kinda puts things into perspective for me.

i had to google this because i am not a tiktok-er, and apparently women (? sample size?) are commonly stating that they would rather encounter a bear than a man if they were alone in the woods
interesting point that men often also chose the bear for the question of if they would rather have their wife / daughter stuck in the woods with a bear or a man, so that says a lot about men, as well, i think
we can derive some other mildly interesting points from this, like viewing sexual violence as potentially worse than non-sexual but fatal violence. or like, that one might have to live with societal judgement of having been sexually assaulted because there's still a lot of assumptions that you initiated it somehow (rape culture) vs people universally having sympathy for the victim of an animal attack
overall, the unfortunate reality is that women generally view men or people who look like men as dangerous. i'm a transgender man and i've observed this phenomenon in a very real way as women have gone from generally friendly or neutral to detached. it sucks, but it's not personal
however, if this really bothers you, there are actually some things you can do to help women feel more comfortable around you. this is not like... a guarantee. at the end of the day, you're gonna have to live with jumpscaring some women if you round a corner too quick at them. that's how life is. but, if you want to give them some signs you are not a violent person, not as a way to trick them into trusting you, but as a genuine attempt to help them feel safe:
if you change your style to be more feminine, even in subtle ways, like wearing a pink shirt or pink shoes. if you have a man purse. you don't really need to go full femme but if you express yourself in a way that makes you look like someone secure in your masculinity (actual), it will help women understand you're not really a threat
which i think, generally, reflects that women understand that patriarchy isn't about men as a whole, but rather that most men haven't confronted the ideas they were raised with in order to "be a man", and those are the dangerous ideas they need to avoid to be safe
i think there is also an idea that expressing yourself as a softer or more feminine man will make it harder for you to get laid, and i think this may be true. however, i would suggest that women who only wanna fuck you because you're traditionally masculine are not really the women you wanna be fucking, because they're (probably) going to bring their own ideas of toxic masculinity to enforce on you. those are the women who are more concerned with whether or not e.g. you can change the oil on their car, that you are a "real man", and hopefully it goes without saying that those are the ideas you want to avoid reinforcing / internalizing, even if that means turning down a sexual partner
- You also have a much better chance of scaring off a pursuing bear than a pursuing man.

maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”
It's not unknown men, it's alone with men, period. Most sexual assaults are not stranger-rapes; they're sexual assaults being committed by a person that was known to the victim. Often it's an intimate partner, a date, a close friend, or someone that they went to class/church/etc. with. If people you know aren't safe, then how could you trust strangers?
- Strangers are more statistically safe.
  Also, most folks are horrible judges of character and intention. Scumbags are usually the most charming, outgoing, and well-liked people, and yet most people think the awkward weirdo in the corner bothering nobody is the 'threat'.
- I mean in that case No One Is Safe
  
  No one with no witnesses, at least. And there's the issue, isn't it? It's not, "would you rather be in a crowded bar with a mix of men and women, --or-- would you rather be in a crowded bar full of bears".
  
  Yeah, I think that's the point. If you feel unsafe long enough you become willing to risk the bear. At least it's a different danger.

This whole scenario makes total sense to me. Try to put yourself in the role of the woman:
Man vs bear, random encounter alone in the woods. Both can easily overpower and harm you.
With the bear, you know it's one or the other, it either is going to be scared off by you yelling at it, or it's not and it will very quickly kill you.
The man, if he intends no harm, cool. But if he does intend harm, it can be impossible to tell. He can lie to you, appear friendly and helpful, all the while plotting to harm you horrifically. The bear can have no such malice.
The bear will not target you because of your race, sex, political views, gender identity, sexuality, or nationality.
The bear won't pretend to be your friend to lure you into a sense of false security. The bear won't become enraged at something you say and all of a sudden turn on you.
The bear has no fragile sense of ego that it will attempt to assert if it feels you "wounded" it in some trivial way.
A bear cannot be brainwashed by toxic propaganda or cultural norms about gender roles. A bear will never have any sense of sexual entitlement.
A bear won't drug you and assault you, a bear won't call its friends to join in when you are vulnerable. A bear won't hold blackmail against you after getting you drunk and manipulating you.
If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.
- If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.
  Not a joke, actually. By and large, predatory men prey upon weak women. Women who are afraid of conflict, afraid of drawing attention to themselves. Gavin DeBecker, author of The Gift of Fear, wrote that one of the greatest things you can do in the case of being attacked is to very loudly and boldly reject their advances. "I TOLD YOU NO, LEAVE ME ALONE." The vast majority will run away because they can't be stealthy.
- It would probably be pretty effective on men too, tho XD

I know more than one of these men that women would rather not take a chance with... The JR/AT/JP/TradWife/dudebro types. When I asked my girlfriend about the choices, she chose 'bear' immediately, and specifically called out someone we knew, saying, "Would YOU want me to encounter
<dudebro>
in the forest if I didn't know him?" And she was right -- I'd prefer she choose the bear...
And that's tragically fucking sad that someone I know is so far down the 'dudebro' rabbit hole that I wouldn't leave my GF alone with him in a compromised position.
- Locker rooms have taught me a sizeable percent of men are literal monsters. Like maybe 1 in 10, if even a fraction of the shit I over hear is true.

As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she'd hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:
"If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn't accuse me of raping it if I ignored it."
How would you feel? See, I've said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can't be abused! It's discrimination against women! It's sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we're more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, "This is offensive. Not all men are like that!", and they're all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it's "Not as common."
Which makes it pretty obvious at this point, to me at least, that comments like this stupid "bear" comment serve only one purpose: to shit on men, simply to shit in them. It's MISANDRY but nobody wants to talk about it, because fuck men, we don't deserve support, we don't deserve validation and we don't deserve any rights. As men, we are BIG and STRONG and TOUGH and SCARY. How DARE we want to be met equally when it comes to being abused. Just shake it off!
And there they are. The downvotes. Thanks for literally proving my point, folks.
- “If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”
  Seem like you are actually in a place to understand from your own experience what women are trying to communicate with that whole bear thing. Next step would be to try to have an empathic connection instead of a defensive one. The anger and frustration are not directed at you as an individual but are an expression of experiences, those nuances are often lost in online, non personal communication. What helps is to have more personal communication, better in an offline environment.
  
  I also have a similar experience, I was mugged at knife point and spit on by two adolescents. After that I was jumpy around groups of teens.
  That said , I do not think my fear of teens was rational, neither was it healthy. Only a small minority of teens will mug people. Fearing a whole group for the actions of the few is in human nature, but it is something we must fight against.
  I mean what is the end goal if women are in fear of men ? You can probably reduce violent crime even more, but it remains a rare event. Only 31 out of 1000 people were victims of a violent crime in the UK in 2010. If that doesn't work, what remains? Sex segregation ?
- Preach brother, preach
  
  It's a hill I will fucking die on.

In corporate contexts, black women feel about white men the way that women felt about bears in the first question... and this prompted a similarly negative reaction from white women.

If men were a minority group, this would lead to calls for the male community to police itself and report suspicious behaviour to the authorities.
- I don't quite know if I understand your comment.
  By 'this' do you mean the meme, the response to the meme, or do you mean the number of SA cases done by men?
  Are you drawing parallels to cities calling upon minority communities to police themselves and report suspicious behavior to try and 'solve gang violence'?
- women aren't a minority.
  
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group
  In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the "minority" if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms "minority" and "majority" are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.

Bluntly, I wouldn't want to have some lady I've never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I'm a bad person, far from it.
I feel like I'd be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn't know that.
Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn't have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they're lucky, it'll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.
I don't take any offense at someone answering "bear". At all. It's an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don't. Sure, there's a non-zero chance you'll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.
It's not a statement against me personally as a male, it's a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there's a good chance that you're part of the problem.
I'm not here to judge. So I'll let you decide for yourself.
The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren't willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can "fix" the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn't going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.

As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with "man or bear" posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.
It's not just women discussing their fears, it's women signaling "men are more dangerous than bears".
And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.
Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I've gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because "it's not about them" or because "women's safety are more important than men's feelings" (as if those posts promote women safety).
This is not alright.

There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called "White Fragility" and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.
- Does it suggest any solutions? I totally see the parallel

If you've spent any time alone in the woods, any gender would fear running into a sketchy person. I've had bear encounters. Only humans have made me wish I had a firearm to protect myself alone in the woods. I'm a man that can handle himself, and I still treat strange men as a threat.

My grandparents would say something similar to this TikToker about certain "kinds" of people, and I rightfully consider them fucking abhorrent for it. I consider someone who would unironically say this kind of shit to be the same kind of abhorrent.
- Okay so what you're getting at is that this kind of speech is violent. It acknowledges a conflict and seeks to further a particular side through the adoption of defensive behaviours and attitudes. And you're taking a position that all violence is bad. But you're wrong. Violence, as you and I are defining it here, is a necessary part of self defence. Violence in self defence can put a stop to violence in aggression. A pacifist who is concerned with all violence, rather than just their own, has a moral obligation to defend the weak, using violence if necessary.
  Your racist grandparents were members of the oppressor class, seeking to do violence against the oppressed, and were therefore contributing to the cycle of violence. But the woman who wrote this article, is trying to stop the cycle of violence by engaging in a defensive form of violence against an oppressor class in response to violence by that class. That's not the same thing.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.

Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.
We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they're affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.
- There is hope, I think. I wanted to have sort of a meta-discussion about the question from a mens lib point of view. Like, this thing is circulating, it seems to be making many people upset, what is a healthy way to interpret or react to it?
  
  I think it's to have the conversation with those close to us that felt offended in a measured, methodical fashion. I find that it often seems completely foreign for some of the guys I've talked to put themselves into someone else's shoes.
  It is a slog quite often, and I think that there is some kind of training out there for having these kinds of conversations.
  As always, it's about talking to these people without getting them offended. I agree with other leftists that it's absolutely exhausting - it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes. I still try and talk them through it when I can.

I'm a cis het man, and I'd rather be stuck in a forest with a bear than a strange man.

What the duck is going on?
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2024/04/30/man-bear-tiktok-debate-explainer/73519921007/

I have no idea what you're talking about.
- There was a thing where a woman said that she would feel more safe in a forest with a random bear than with a random man. Then the people who would comment on this type of thing commented, then the kinds of people who comment on the comments did their thing.
  
  Ah.
  Thanks.
  It might feel something is "known by everyone" when one sees a thing frequently, but usually, it isn't..

Yeah I absolutely still don't understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is.. like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else
- A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.
  While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.
  Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.
  The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.
  
  Well that's just ridiculous.. a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn't care about you at all ... a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with.. I don't knoooooowwwwww........ this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn't matter and doesn't really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things... it just seems like something to argue about for argument's sake.. it's a good debate topic but that's about it.. be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don't know whole thing is kind of silly to me.. but thank you so much for your explanation of it

How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you're going to be scaring someone just for existing?
I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just...not exist anymore. Existing as a 'good man' doesn't do any good.
- That can never be the appropriate answer. I'm sorry if you sometimes feel like that. It can really feel like a situation with no way to win. Perhaps it's not about winning. In this case, something is being communicated. I bet that there are different things being communicated by different people, but using the same words. Someone might be trying to say "things in my past has made it difficult for me to trust men." Someone else might want to be edgy because they enjoy "kicking upward". We don't know. On the internet, the loud edgy people rule. In real life, most women I've actually talked to are much more understanding and willing to see the nuances and how complicated things can be. If the internet people are getting to you, a good exercise can be to talk to real people more. They don't want you dead. They probably want good interactions. Maybe every good interaction makes their fear diminish just a little.
- Please don't do that. All humans are products of a bygone area. We have imperfect minds and bodies that evolved to solve problems that aren't really relevant anymore. But hopefully you can find some kind of peace inside that existence. You don't have to be defined by other people's prejudice toward you.
  Have you tried therapy? I had to try multiple therapists before finding someone that worked for me, but I'm so happy I went through the process.
- It doesn't really matter if you scare someone you don't know. They don't know you either. Ultimately it's reasonable to be uncomfortable around strangers.
  If you still scare people even after interacting with them, don't take it personally. Lots of people have biases and past traumatic experiences that might paint you any which way.
  Just focus on being kind and liked by the communities you're in, and don't take a defeatist mentality over someone being scared of you at first.

What do I think?
It's fiction.
Don't read too much into it.

That's an interesting assumption.
If your first assumption is wrong then this is just a weird and rambling post. That is somehow about bears.
- Just look it up

Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next?
Fuck off.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou
If a woman tells you you threaten her more than a wild bear does, fucking listen, then fuck off. She is actively telling you you frighten her more than a fucking polar or grizzly. Why would you stick around? Do you enjoy terrifying people? Show some fucking respect and leave her alone forever, like she literally just asked you to. As a free bonus, you'll never have to hear her say it to you again.
- But she's not telling me, is she? She's telling every man everywhere, forever. I can't do anything with that information, except wonder if she's calling for all men and women to be strictly segregated for women's safety. At which point you've gone so far into nth-wave feminism that you've arrived at Saudi society as as model.
  
  It's woman specific, because she can't speak for any woman but her, and her rights matter no more than yours do, if you're concerned about situations where you both want or need to be in the same space.
- IME the women who do this are the one who are the predators.
  so yeah, if a unhinged lady goes off on me how i'm a huge threat to her, i do fuck off, because she's probably a psycho. normal, well adjusting folks don't go off on random strangers minding their own business.
  I hike all the time. Nobody says more than a polite hi, or a wave or nod. men and women, solo, or in groups.
- Maybe it depends on the type of bear.
  If it's brown, lay down. If it's black, fight back. If it's white, say good night (RIP).
  On the other side of things, there's probably the context. Some women would never go into the woods at all, so if they're there with a strange man, things are probably going to get bad.
  But if there's a bear, they're probably alone, and just need to leave the area. The bear lives in the woods (unless it's a polar bear), and it's probably minding its own business.
  
  Maybe what depends on the type of bear? Because the context is what a man should do when a woman tells him she'd rather be near a bear than him.

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