Ye Power Trippin' Bastards @lemmy.dbzer0.com

3d ago

Meta: For the sake of mutual aid with Blajah and my sanity, no more posts about Blajah's moderation policies please.

I'm gonna get real with you folks, we've had way too many of these posts recently. I've been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn't care less about my gender identity. But just because that's true for me, doesn't make that true for everyone.

The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don't like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.

Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That's fair enough imo.

Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah's admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.

I can completely understand why Blajah users don't want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.

In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:

that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and ~~- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.~~

That's all folks, have at 'er.

Edit: thanks for all your feedback and comments. I think it's clear that the vast majority of people are fed up with this topic coming up repeatedly.

Summarizing the feedback, I'd say most folks would prefer to retain previous posts for the sake of posterity, and to serve as an example of why we don't want anymore of these posts. I'm happy to take that on board. For those folks saying I'm a PTB for intervening in this way, I'll just remind you that I haven't made any arbitrary mod decisions, and I've consulted with db0 and the community as a whole before taking any mod actions.

I think the way to move forward with this is to acknowledge that there's a bunch of queer and straight people who have a problem with xenogenders. Personally, I think that's a valid perspective and shouldn't sanctioned on our instance. But for Blajah, they've drawn a line in the sand over this and that's ok too. Our instance won't be blocking anyone over their opinions on the topic, especially in this community where free discussion is necessary and encouraged. But safe spaces should be respected.

A lot of folks mentioned I should more more specific about the "no more posts about Blajah's mod policies" rather than making it a sweeping and overly broad statement. I think that's good feedback. I will amend this to "No more posts in this community about the validity or otherwise of neopronouns, xenogenders, and bans originating from Blajah about gatekeeping or transphobia. This is in recognition of Blajah's safe space policy. You are of course free to discuss those topics outside of this community.

Note that this decision isn't about ideological gatekeeping, its about reducing the workload for our own mods and admins in trying to moderate this community, and to avoid iterating over the same old topics again and again.

Blajah isn't getting a "free pass" over YPTB posts - if you feel they are power tripping over other issues then feel free to make a post here. But if it's a post questioning the validity of xenogenders or about Blajah bans for gatekeeping then that will no longer be allowed here. Those folks deserve a safe space on Lemmy, even if it's not a mainstream opinion.

For those folks who feel aggrieved about being accused of "transphobia" or "gatekeeping" over their views on this topic, I completely understand just how hurtful it can be to be unfairly (imo) accused in this way. I've been in the same position, and I also found it difficult to deal with. I want those folks to know that our instance does not require you to support xenogenders in order to participate in our instance. However we do require that you use preferred pronouns whenever they are specified. That's been a longstanding instance policy on dbzer0.

Thank everyone for your feedback.

345 comments

I'm OK with that but it has to be a bit more targeted specifically to blahaj's rule about gatekeeping and neopronouns, and I would add everything drag of course.
I wouldn't delete old posts, just lock them.
Maybe make it a temporary moratorium?
- agree. seeing that the trolls the posters here are crying about have been banneed for weeks to months, a temporary moratorium is probably fine. maybe six months but im pulling that number from nowhere.
  EDIT: I have changed my mind about this. See https://lemmy.cafe/comment/10132150 and the preceding thread.

In favor of doing this, but keep the old posts locked without removing them so people know what happened and what led up to this.

I'd want the old posts kept for historical reference, but otherwise I'm fine with this.

I’m fine with not allowing it in the future, but I would appreciate not deleting the ones that already exist.
For archival’s sake. And for so when questions are asked about why, people can see for themselves what happened and decide whether what they see justifies blocking blahaj for them personally or not.
The way Blahaj creates a safe space is a way that ends up creating a very toxic space for others, and I don’t think erasing grievances people have had with them in the past would be good.
The fact that it’s so common means a lot of people are feeling attacked/invalidated/whatnot because of Blahaj, and leaving evidence of what they’ve done to others could help reassure people that it’s not them. Blahaj is just like that.
… If anyone up to the challenge of being a mod of a meanwhileonblahaj, that might be another decent alternative. I saw the idea floating around.

Leave the threads up, probably locked. Don't erase history.
I wouldn't start on wholesale topic bans just yet. This should be an absolute last resort and this will probably do more harm than good.
Possibly create some extra categories for titles so users can filter it out if they don't want to hear about it. Instance name of the potential PTB? Not sure.
My suggestion for this topic right now is to get everyone together that needs to and talk/scream/yell about it in private. I think everything has been said publicly at this point and the reading comprehension has gone down the toilet. The amount of misunderstandings, blanket downvotes, pettiness, bad assumptions, baiting and finger pointing is getting ridiculous. Have your damn say and find a conclusion, even if said conclusion is 'fuck you' from each person.
For shit like this in the future? If it comes to it, it is far better to lock first, talk to the person, and then unlock it. We can tell each other all day to be an adult, but it isn't that simple. There will always be some big event that floods the community at some point or another. This community practically begs for it. It will eventually be filed into PTB history.

Well, I'm for this move. The why is obvious, as you've covered it in the post already.
I would also like to voice support for a couple ideas from previous comments
First, that previous posts stay up, and locked, so that people can still see that the issues were.
Second, that y'all consider the possibility of an FPT (frequently power tripped) thread at some frequency where folks can still hash out the common subjects. This and the mod abuse C/ are valuable pressure relief valves. I worry that a total banning of "frequent fliers" (sic) might have effects down the road.
I know that's extra work for mods, so it's definitely a big ask, but lemmy does need places where disgruntled users can complain. Having multiple places is better because one community would get swamped if they're the only place people can go for specific complaints.

I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone would very much agree with this decision as well.
- Ada is in favor of banning dissent
- It’s “bellyaching” over dissent from other queers
- not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it
  Literally the comment you wrote immediately before this one involved you deriding bad faith arguments.
- I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
  "It's not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned."
  
  “It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
  "I'm just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can't address Draconic's actual points"
  
  You're being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you're able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you're either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you're throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
  
  You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.

I'm completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTB's more exciting so maybe i'm wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them aren't encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? I'm honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don't think.
- But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
  Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a 'protective' community, but only towards the 'right' people who think in the 'right' way?
  
  Maybe it is? Don't non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
  If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don't they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
  You're all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You've more than said your piece.
  
  Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.

The way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text don't really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out Blåhaj, and I feel like I understood then already because it's not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they're either fucking stupid, or they're probably these 'free speech' people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as I'm concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
- Someone was banned yesterday who didn't even participate in the instance.
  
  That person seems to be an alt wanted to rehash the whole 196 debacle
  https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39114269/17051352
- I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
  They’re out to fucking brunch while we’re about to be genocided im america. It’s disgusting having this level of trolling run a queer space. There needs to be an alternative queer space where free speech is tolerated.
  And yeah, I’m mad as hell about it and not backing down. These petulant children who run queer spaces these days put us all at risk when they protect trolling neopronouns and non human identities and kick actual queers out. For “gatekeeping”. Fuck blahaj.
  
  I was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
  get your facts straight you were banned for misunderstanding a conversation SO BADLY you verbally abused another user that you actually agreed with
  https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9831688
  and that’s the most charitable interperetation i can give you
- So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
  I was accused of being a transphobe on a comm that wasn't even in Blahaj. I defended myself. For that, I was banned. Another poster, a trans user, made a comment. For that, they were dogpiled by Blahaj defenders, called a fascist and a transphobe, and then banned. Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
  Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
  
  Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
  Haven’t you figured out by now that’s the strawman argument of any queer person who wants to feel oppression and be offended?
  
  Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
  I don't think they're saying you can't discuss it, or they're going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that. They're just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they'd like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight. I think this is one of the rare times when "you can still talk about it, you just can't do it here anymore" has a good amount of validity.
  And like I say, I think the users are much more the issue here than the moderation. I think "how do we manage to get along on the fediverse" may be a better way to approach it than "don't you agree that the mods of blahaj are terrible."
  Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
  That's sort of what I'm saying. A lot of people on lemmy do want to have that right, and it's not super-important (apparently) within the consensus culture to say they're not allowed to. The boundaries of what's acceptable behavior are often in very weird places, to me.

I stopped visiting this instance because the transphobic screeds became too much for me. Someone who doesn't 'get' half of young trans people but just feels being nice to people exploring themselves or ignoring them if they're too much is easier.

Why do you need to delete old posts?
Where can users banned by blahaj admins for lurking in other communities report it? Especially because the lahaj admins ban so many people for gatekeeping despite them not gatekeeping.
There's a theme here of covering up dissent instead of engaging.
Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
PTB
- THANK YOU

I wouldn’t be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldn’t be that fussed about it if they were.

As a blahaj'r, I would deeply appreciate this.
- i started banned by blahaj to resolve this issue i hope you appreciate it
  
  Hey dick why did you remove my post?

I think you're doing the right thing. The trolls are really stepping up, which is obvious in this thread. I'm trying to share it a lot because if you really read it and understand the process of what they're doing, you'll save yourself a lot of time and energy.
“Once we isolate key people, we look for people we know are in their upstream – people that they read posts from, but who themselves are less influential. We then either start flame wars with bots to derail the conversations that are influencing influential people, or else send off specific tasks for sockpuppets (changing this wording of an idea here; cause an ideological split there; etc).”
https://archive.is/PoUMo
Edit: I forgot to add this part of the thread:
The goal is to keep opinions we don't want fragmented and from coalescing in to a single voice for long enough that the memes we do want can,...
- The trolls are really stepping up, which is obvious in this thread.
  That stood out to me too. A ton of people jumped in with instantly inflammatory takes which seem almost tailor-made to continue this ridiculous dispute.
  
  It's not just here in this community, it's throughout the all page. The fediverse is worrying some people and it's showing.
  
  I actually have a pretty high opinion of PugJesus otherwise...
- The trolls are really stepping up
  Aren't you like.. THE troll?
  
  That's funny, I don't consider myself influential. You're making me blush.
- Remember when you banned me because I disagreed with you and it annoyed you and you wanted to win the argument?
  
  I'm very open about banning easily. I have no qualms about it. If I think you're a troll, you're gone. I'll own to being a power tripping bastard. I'll take that over trolling any day.
  BTW, I usually do temp bans in case I make a mistake. If it was permanent, then I was pretty sure.

I think previous posts should remain up, to preserve the discussion in that post, but I understand why you don't want any further posts about this.
I think everyone has shared their views on the topic already.
- I have not yet shared my view.
  
  Damn that's crazy

Everything involving this Blahaj slapfight has been BPR, and anyone continuing to rehash it over here is just BPR^2
Like, seriously, this should've ended the minute the obvious troll provoking everyone got banned. Nothing productive will ever come of continuing to talk about it now, all sides need to let it go.
- real af
  
  real af
  Oh cool, so you weren't one of the people saying everyone who left 196 was a transphobe?
  Oh, wait, you're literally one of the people who fucking started this.

I’ll die on the hill that their bullshit about pronouns and respecting nonsense and made up troll identities that make a mockery of us makes the world LESS SAFE for queer people. As a queer person who is visibly gender nonconforming and at physical risk in our current political environment. Im willing to be banned from all of lemmy over this idgaf.
Millennial queers and our elders fought like hell for acceptance so children could get their panties in a twist over being “misgendered” by strangers on the internet who don’t know them nor give a fuck what their gender is. Do these kids even touch grass? Chronically online children putting us all at risk.
Meanwhile we have real serious threats to our physical safety in America but yeah. Let’s whine and cry about being misgendered! it’s oppression!
Edit - IRL I call people what they want to be called. Online I have no idea who the fuck you are or what your gender is nor am I going to remember. And the genderless “they” is not undermining your gender you don’t get to police the English language. And that’s really what this is about. People who feel powerless grabbing on to what little power they have to police others behavior under the ironic concept of “gatekeeping.” That’s the pronoun whining in a nutshell.
As for the question at hand, lock old posts, let new ones through. Their moderation is heavy handed and not queer friendly and they deserve criticism for it. Only their kind of queer is accepted. Not people like me living in reality, staring down the beginning of a genocide and telling them to grow the fuck up.
- In a similar vein: they promote a redefined version of asexuality that can end in more people than ever thinking asexual people are just picky and will be happy to do it for their partner and/or “can be fixed”.
  The more the redefinition leaks into the real world, the more people once considered broken who were finally starting to be accepted as normal will end up dealing with forced consent via peer pressure and corrective rape.
  No means NO, and that was starting to be understood for what it was. With the redefinition of asexual into “No means I have quirky requirements that The One will have”, it ends in real harm for actual no means NO people.
  So yes. Real life harm can be caused by toxic gatecrashing. And people causing it call the ones at risk names for the terrible sin of not wanting to be taken as a joke in reality. Literal insult added to injury.
- edit: oops i posted this in the wrong thread apologize
  
  They’re a bunch of petulant children who care more about pronoun policing and power tripping and ironically gatekeeping than preparing for the incoming fucking genocide.
  They provide a safe space for made up identities and actively harm actual queer people.

If I might make a suggestion, assuming it wouldn't cause more of a moderation nightmare: Maintain a list of soft banned topics that get relegated to a weekly "containment" thread. Complaints about explicitly stated instance wide rules get routed there. People have their space to complain but it keeps things cleaner. It also still allows this place to serve as kind of a watch for abuse. Just because it's a clearly stated instance wide rule, or that anyone can pick up and go somewhere else on the fediverse, doesn't necessarily mean it's not being abused.
Either way, I despise the idea of deleting the previous threads. There's nothing illegal and people should be able to draw their own conclusions about those shitshows. I think the previous threads should be locked to prevent any further comments requiring mod work, but left up. They are important context to this whole mess in case it flares up again. Really sucks coming into something late and being attacked for asking questions that are only obvious if you're already up to date, that come across as attacks to people already in it, but you have no way of knowing any better about.
I also have some concerns about this comm if certain topics start becoming forbidden. It limits the ability of this space to allow the community to pass judgement on and discuss mod/admin actions. But not limiting could end up with this com just devolving into a complaint quarantine for leapords ate my face "contestants".
Tl;dr- don't ban topic (maybe a weekly quaratine thread for certain topics), lock old threads and leave up

I agree in at least a memorandum or a break on this so everyone, myself included, can outside and breathe from air. Play games they enjoy. Read a good book. Listen to music.
Taking a break from the keyboard helps me when I'm upset about online stuff that doesn't impact the real world.
- Mad love for the user name, btw :)
  
  Thank you!

I have a related question:
Where do the users who get banned from YPTB go, when they eventually get banned from YPTB?
- believe it or not, straight to jail.
- I think it would be funny if there was a rule that the only way to get banned from YPTB was by coming in and saying "well, it's the moderators' community, so they can really do anything they want and you're wrong for disagreeing with them in any way." And then that person could get banned with reason "Okey dokey then."
  I don't think it's actually a good idea. Freedom to say whatever in YPTB, even if you're being kind of obnoxious about it, seems important, and imitating bad behavior to make a point is still bad behavior. I just think it would be funny.
  
  Back in the day, Dragon Rider actually got banned from YPTB for starting too much drama, as db0 put it.
  Didn't seem to work.
- There is a mod hot allert community...
  On fedi there is always a place to go. Start your own community on a obscure server !
  That's how decentralization works... Vote with your feet.
  Isolationist communities will lose on the long run anyway.
  
  Hello. I am the new moderator of the mod hot allert community. Things are going to change.
- Double-hell

I’ve made my take on the whole xenogender argument clear elsewhere so I won’t rehash it here. From an administration perspective I understand your thought process.
I would say leave previous posts up, as it is a very real part of the experience of the fediverse and should remain documented. I would also find it reasonable to limit further posts on the subject.

This shouldn't even be a debate or question. This hateful bullshit against Blahaj just needs to stop and mods need to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly is okay or permitted I don't think that !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com should even be on our instance anymore, and our admins should just remove it.
I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope this community can put an end to this bullshit and stop endorsing queerphobic users' complaints.
- Being queer-friendly doesn't mean they're immune to criticism. The issues people have with that instance have little to do with it being queer-friendly, and more to do with heavy-handed mod practices, and I think it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that that's the reason why people are upset.
  
  Nah the core of most of these posts is whether or not it’s ok to disrespect someone for their xenogender or using neopronouns. People will come in here to say they have been banned for accidentally misgendering or just ‘sharing their opinion’ but every case I’ve seen so far, if you look into their modlog you see that they were actually being really disrespectful about it, making other people with xenogender and/or neopronouns feel unsafe. Blahaj admin has made it clear that disrespecting someones pronouns or identity is not allowed on the instance, which most blahaj users agree with. Anyone who would still like to argue about this rule is just better off on another instance.
- Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly
  Nobody is arguing against blahaj for being queer friendly. People are arguing against some of their members for being unfriendly to people, including queer people, among them LittleRatInALittleHat. That’s the only reason people are caring about this.
  The type of mentality “you’re not allowed to criticize me, because I am X, and so unless you agree with me you’re being anti-X” is tempting but it is wrong. You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
  
  but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
  Well I think queer people can have any gender they want, and you just have to deal with it because it's none of your business.
  
  You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender ...
  Well, I'm gonna chime in again, because it's a nice jumping off point.
  That argument, that anyone is actually saying dragon is a gender, is simply misrepresenting all of the subject.
  Regardless of one's view on xenopronouns in specific, or neopronouns one general, the claim hasn't been that dragon is a gender.
  The rule, and the argument behind it, is about pronouns. And it isn't really about the pronouns themselves, as much as it is about who gets to decide when someone is deserving of being respected as an individual.
  We're not biking being asked to share a belief that a person is a dragon, or fucks dragons, or that humans can be part dragon.
  What we're being asked to do is to respect pronouns or just not talk to someone. That's it. That's what it's about.
  The rule simply lays out what will happen if people don't do one of those two things.
  You don't have to agree with the word being used as a pronoun meaning anything other than that it replaces traditional pronouns and makes them happy. Does it matter if they think they're a dragon, or a tiger? No. It doesn't matter. If the cognitive dissonance of using a word in an unconventional way is so high that you simply can't do it, that's okay. You have multiple options at that point.
  One, you can ignore the request, and accept the consequences as they come. Fair or not, those consequences are known.
  Two, you can use them anyway, and roll your eyes while you do it. Nobody will know you're rolling your eyes.
  Three, you can use them anyway, and complain about it, which may also have consequences, depending on how you complain.
  Four, you can block the individual and never interact with them again, thus preventing cognitive dissonance entirely.
  Five, you can choose to just not interact with them at all.
  Six, you choose to not interact, but complain about it elsewhere, with possible consequences (as these posts have shown).
  There's even other options, but they're absurdist stuff like juggling oranges while singing "I'm a little teapot". So, you know, only entertaining to me.
  Now, that's separate from anything else, I'm only talking about the idea that one has to share a belief to be able to use someone's pronouns. Like, my pronouns are he/him, they/them, and I'll accept any gender neutral neopronouns as well. But I'll accept she/her in a pinch, though I may correct those if it's relevant. It's why I never list my pronouns, I'm cool with almost anything, up to and including "that asshole". That's not even a joke, I'm fine being referred to that way as a replacement for a pronoun, or in general.
  You don't have to agree with my belief that I'm not obligated to behave in the way a pronoun implies to use any of those. You don't have to agree with my belief that by accepting almost any pronoun that I improve myself by challenging my own concepts of gender in order to use he/him, or any of the rest.
  So, why would you have to believe in anything at all to use any pronoun? You aren't expected to log off and tell your roommate or whatever, "jeez, this cat I was talking to was a real weirdo, he's just nuts" and you aren't expected to log off and tell the same person "I was talking to this cat from blahaj and drag sure did annoy me" you can use any pronoun you want when you aren't in the presence of the person requesting an individual pronoun, or any neopronouns, or a xenopronoun.
  You don't need to believe anything except that the person, the human being with their own life and needs and pains, is made a little happier by the use of it. That's it. That's all you have to believe.
- If I were a Blahaj user, I'd be posting about defederation from db0. The transphobia needs to end.
- They’re not queer friendly because they don’t tolerate serious dissent from queers. They’re a safe space for people who live in a fucking fantasy world and not reality.
  
  Reality is overrated. Belief is perception.
- "They can't be power tripping mods because they are queer!"
  No, that is stupid.
- This shouldn’t even be a debate or question.
  Yes, that does seem to be the consistent position in Blahaj.
  
  Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying "man, basketball? I don't get it" but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldn't exist if you dare engage with that.
  You'd ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
  Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.

Proposing a very specific limit on posts referring mod/admin actions taken against users on LBZ that directly fall afoul of their instance rules regarding very specific gatekeeping might have some value. The subject has been hashed and re-hashed too fucking much. Their rules are their rules, breaking those rules on the instance is clear YDI. Breaking those rules elsewhere and having action taken against you is arguably PTB. I'm in favor of the idea of putting that on wax.
Purging previous discussion is no good, and even the proposal, coming from a community mod as it does, rubs me the wrong way. It shouldn't, because you have just as much right to propose a change as any other community member, but it puts me on edge.
There is value in what's been said already, even if some of it is highly disagreeable. Suggesting removal of that record for any reason invites future discussion of the same, IMO. Not everyone who will ever be a member of this community is a member now. If we're going to consider making a rule about this whole mess, best to leave the roadmap that led us here intact.
Potential yes to a well-defined rule of specific, narrow scope. Hard, hard no to retroactive application of that rule.
- I just want to clarify. The only people getting banned for remote comments are people who knowingly and explicitly gatekeep other folks identity in response to this topic coming up. They are banned so that they don't start appearing in blahaj communities with the very people they're invalidating.
  To me, there's no difference. If someone's response to this topic coming up is to double down on gatekeeping, it doesn't make them any less harmful just because they did it outside of a blåhaj community.
  
  I appreciate your willingness to respond and engage on the subject. I understand your position, and that it makes sense to you. I personally feel that there is a degree of overreach involved when action is taken based on behavior that happens outside of an instance, but I also acknowledge that defederation is a more severe version of the same action. That causes a bit of cognitive dissonance for me, which makes me wonder if I'm viewing it all wrong.
  For now, I still believe that your method is beyond what I consider to be a reasonable exercise of authority. That's not a slight on you; I have always gotten the impression that all of your actions are taken with the intent of doing what you believe is best for your instance. Our philosophies just differ somewhat when it comes to exercise of authority. I find you and db0 to be the most intellectually honest of the larger instance admins with regards to how you go about the business of adminning, for whatever that's worth.
  Thanks again for engaging, I hope everyone else sees that you do your best to be consistent to your instance values.
  
  We’re about to be genocided but yeah let’s make a safe space for fantasy fucking neo pronouns and non human identities. Yeah. You really got your eye on the ball when it comes to the safety of queer people while supporting those who make a mockery of us. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

I appreciate this post, really helps me fill out my block list. It is sad that people cannot just let others live as they want.

In fact I thought this was already a rule.
- i did too i was surprised at the recent resurgence
- It used to be, there was at one point a rule against bellyaching about being censored or banned for bigotry, but they got rid of it in favor of making the community a free for all, what a disaster that turned out to be.

~~Agree. Thank you.~~ EDIT I have changed my opinion on this. See here https://lemmy.cafe/comment/10132150 and the preceding thread.

I kinda feel you on this.
I only turned-up in the fediverse because my phone, the Voyager app and Lemmy looks suspiciously like how my phone, the Apollo app and… some other aggregator site I used to visit looked. (Robbit, or something. Can’t remember all the details)
Anyway, having a browse, looking around. Happy happy. Saw /196 and checked it out - I knew the “content” and “the rule” from the other place. Just like old.
Got to understand the difference between community and instance. Had a look around Blahaj… eye-opening. I felt the place out and discovered that it was, in fact, what it appeared to be. Doubly eye-opening.
If Blahaj was a pub, run by Ada, and I was the doorman I wouldn’t even let me in; let alone drink at the bar.
So I wound my neck in.
Plenty of other instances to go bump my gums on - if I’m so inclined.
Just let it slide, folks… their place, their rules.
P.S. The sum of human time wasted on these few words, again and again, reheated and reserved, again and again. I mean, really? We’re at the peak of technological advancement and saturation whilst possibly on the cusp of a dystopian cataclysm and we are all - me included - wasting our time churning over the same old nonsense.
- Well, I’m livin’ in a foreign country but I’m bound to cross the line
  Beauty walks a razor’s edge, someday I’ll make it mine
  If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born
  Come in, she said, I’ll give ya
  Shelter from the storm
  Bob Dylan

at this point it's all just going in circles

three hundredth

Doesn't one of the db0 mod team literally think xenogenders are trolling? He's probably just going to override you and say those posts are allowed.

moderates a drama community
gets upset when people air drama
PTB if you make this change
this community is about documenting admin/mod abuse making exceptions for other instances undermines the entire point

Good move.

This fucking comm is already SRD for Lemmy.
Cya.

Themesong for this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt30uxh2fhM
which is a mf'n bop bee tee dubs

Just block them folks that how adults handle the issue after the reasonable approach didn't work.
We went through this with neo lib acolyte communities on Lemmy world
Let them have their echo chambers there is planety of room to grow fedi in place that welcome a higher quality of discourse. Blaha doesn't really have anything critical

I think it's the wrong direction. Though much more work is involved, focusing on the comments themselves should be the way to go.
This community is about rules and whether the people in charge of maintaining them abuse their power. The topics in which this happens matter less than whether there is an abuse happening.
So the comments that focus on the wrong thing are the ones that should be moderated.
Is there an abuse? Yes/No and why.

After thinking about this a little bit more: can we just only exclude anything related to xenogenders, no matter the instance? or even just the topic when coming from blahaj? There could be actual moderation issues on blahaj, as seen with 196's fiascos.
- First the came for the dragonfuckers, and since I was not a dragonfucker, I did not stand up.
  
  /s?

To all the blahaj stans:
- lol that telling you to take it elsewhere is “making you believe absurities”
  no one has to believe shit we just have to not be assholes about it
  
  we just have to not be assholes about it
  Unfortunately that's not possible for the people who are whining and complaining about blahaj here. They're incapable of not being assholes which is why they got banned in the first place.
  
  Ah yes, no one has to believe anything in particular but all dissidence will be silenced
  
  lol that telling you to take it elsewhere is “making you believe absurities”
  Yeah, elsewhere, somewhere outside of Blahaj, like maybe dbzer0!
- You got it backwards, being against blahaj and what it stands for is culture war bullshit.
  
  Sorry I identify as an attack helicopter now because that’s what blahaj prioritizes. Bullshit identities and ideologies that make a mockery of actual queer people. As a safe space!
  
  The instance stands for clearly, directly, and repeatedly insisting upon the notion that fictional entities are real, and demonizing and falsely accusing those who point out that fictional entities are fictional. That is the absurdity. What an asinine and self-important thing for you to say that totally tracks with everything we’ve seen so far.
- The place does have that Zionist vibe tbh
  
  💯

I think people should be allowed to complain about any mod, on any community, on any instance.
Otherwise, it shows a pretty clear favoritism.
I don't come here for fruitless arguments regarding lemmy.ml or blahaj.zone moderation, but that is the cost of open discussion. If people want to fight each other, who are we to prevent them?
- That's just it, though. The blahaj people don't want to fight about this, that's literally the entire point of the rule. This is about other people coming into their spaces, starting fights, getting banned for rules that are very clear and then pitching a shit fit about it.
  I don't complain when I get booted from lemmy.ml communities for breaking a clear rule because I went to their place and fucked around. It would literally be a waste of everyone's time for me to complain about.
  The rule about pronouns is pretty cut and dried. You can either respect them, or you can not engage with the people who you think are trolling at all, which to be clear, is incredibly fucking easy to do. No one is forcing these people to make comments like that in those communities. That's a personal choice.
  Once again, if you show up on blahaj and start fucking around with pretty clearly defined rules, only one side is fighting, the other side is just banning them for breaking clear rules. That's not a fight, that's enforcing the rules they've laid out.
  
  Dbzero is not their space and they don’t get to police other people’s conceptions of them.
  
  Blahaj admins started this whole ordeal in december for banning dissent and losing dozens of users instead of engaging with their community.
  
  "Do not confront the people doing bad things" is a very shitty advice.
  
  This is about other people coming into their spaces, starting fights, getting banned for rules that are very clear and then pitching a shit fit about it.
  I don’t complain when I get booted from lemmy.ml communities for breaking a clear rule because I went to their place and fucked around. It would literally be a waste of everyone’s time for me to complain about.
  Once again, if you show up on blahaj and start fucking around with pretty clearly defined rules, only one side is fighting, the other side is just banning them for breaking clear rules. That’s not a fight, that’s enforcing the rules they’ve laid out.
  Holy fucking shit man, both of the recent Blahaj posts were done to users who were not posting in Blahaj. They were posting here, on dbzer0, and for that matter in this very comm.
  
  This community is on lemmy.dbzer0.com
  I'm talking about people containing their fights over moderation topics to this community, not going into another community and trying to start fights there.
  They should be able to complain about any mod, any community, or any instance here
- I don’t come here for fruitless arguments
  Well I did. And I want all of them.
  
  Fruit salad for all!

Should we just have a pinned post about them and lemmy.ml?
- Yeah that definitely won't create any ongoing drama lol
  
  I don't see why it would.

Its not ur choice as to if a mod is a BTB. The community gets to decide that. This post itself is a PTB kind of move ngl.
- It is if they ultimately decide that it's just simply being used to bellyache about transphobia or fascism. In which case it diminishes the validity of the community. If you still want to do that, Gab and truthsocial are that way.
- It's their choice whether they want to entertain the exact same conversation over and over again, in ways that create needless drama with some other instance, an instance which doesn't seem to mean any harm.
  I would support this move on db0's part. It's not about blahaj, it's about db0.
  Edit: You know what? My viewpoint doesn't need to be rehashed in this comment.
  
  It’s their choice whether they want to entertain the exact same conversation over and over again, in ways that create needless drama with some other instance, an instance which doesn’t seem to mean any harm.
  Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that

If we're at the point where Blahaj gets a pass for power-tripping by using the idea that they're a trans safe-space as a shield, even as they harass other trans users on other instances to the point of leaving the Fediverse, I'm out of this comm.
- Did they harass you though? Or just ban you from blahaj?
  
  They are on this thread accusing Pug of being a transphobe, wanting to use slurs, and a bunch of other heinous shit he has never done based on him not agreeing that dragon can be a gender.
  It has also happened repeatedly in the last, but I am to lazy to look it up. Just imagine the same volume of anger and vitrol has been directed at Pug for some time on instances other than blajah for quite a while now.
  
  They just banned him from blahaj.zone and he's been bellyaching about it for a while.
  
  Not me, LittleRatInAHat, whom they, Draconic Neo below playing dumb included, called a fascist and a transphobe for daring to disagree with them.

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